'US teen' among five dead in West Bank and Tel Aviv attacks

[Jingthing]

I think the "US" part, seeming to cast doubt on his nationality, is the much more revealing part, actually.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Siamwhiteelephant]

Occupied Palestinians aren't a tourist attraction!

Half the Palestinians were extra-judicially executed at the scene.

Can you elaborate on this to support your outlandish claim? In summarizing the article, an American, an Israeli, and a Palestinian were shot dead by a Palestinian..... no mention of anyone else dying at the scene, let alone anyone “extra-judicially executed at the scene".

Edited November 20, 2015 by Siamwhiteelephant

[Morch]

Interesting to see some posters often programming themselves as great humanists, jump through hoops to justify violence.

Focusing on just one of the victims, because it might be played to deflect the issue and muddy the waters is all very fine - but there were other victims. Two well within Israel's borders, and doing nothing more than praying. Another victim being Palestinian. Why ignore them? Because it doesn't fit the agenda. Sure, if it was just those two murdered in Tel Aviv, the reasoning would be that it is justified because Israel...whatever. Not as good a spin as focusing on the murdered US teen, obviously. And not a word about the accidentally murdered Palestinian.

But alright, for those making the murdered USA teen the main act here - recall a while back, a Palestinian kid, also a USA citizen visiting his family, was killed by IDF fire. Don't think there was much outrage over visiting the West Bank in that case etc. Same goes for foreign volunteers coming over to the West Bank in order to support Palestinian causes.

The usual derailing of any concrete topic to agenda driven versions of history, particularly those which are obviously incorrect and thoroughly discussed many times, is to be expected when self-proclaimed humanists find it hard to accept their pet side does bad things too. Seemingly, accepting it is a huge issue, hence the denial.

For those supporting the Palestinian cause, may want to stop a minute and figure the probable consequences of the Tel-Aviv attack. The Palestinian who carried out this vile stabbing attack was working in Israel legally - as in having a permit. Can't offhand recall when was the last similar attack took place. Pretty sure that it will bring about additional restrictions on issuing such permits, which would have a negative effect on the Palestinians.

[Jingthing]

It's not really very mysterious. The intentions of the Israel demonization agenda are painfully transparent.

As far as the question of shooting terrorists dead on the spot, what's the big deal? Would the obsessive Israeli demonization agenda question that in France? Isn't that their Islamist Jihadi dream, to be a martyr? Extra special bonus virgins for killing Jews.

In this case of the specific incident with the murdered American teen, it appears the terrorist was arrested alive.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Morch]

You are creating a straw man. I would not dream of using the racist language you use.

Palestinians did not abandon land. that is your euphemism for "Israeli ethnic cleansing" ..and it is still going on today.

The American was 18 years old. He was actively supporting an army of occupation delivering food to them. He knew what he was doing.

I can well understand the grief of his loved ones. The same as the grief of the almost 100 Palestinians killed over the last 2 months.

That's why it's time this madness ended, and Israel made serious efforts to rekindle peace talks. They hold all the power. One act of good will such as a moratorium on colony building and expansion might lessen tensions. I am sure EU and US politicians would support such a move and offer their help

Claim it as much as you will, not all of the Palestinians were driven off, many ran away (owing to fear or promises by Arab leadership that all will be well). Not all of the Palestinians actually owned land, even if they lived on it. There can be an argument regarding exact figures and relative strength of factors regarding the former, and there can be an discussion as to the causes and details of the latter. Not really to do with the OP, but falling back on pseudo-history and slogans is an a standard reaction whenever your pet side does something unsavory.

I do not believe that the Palestinian cause will be damaged beyond repair if certain vile actions would be openly acknowledged and condemned. Before the usual responses - I'm not responsible for other poster's opinions, just for mine. The same point was directed at ardent supporters of Israel, on more than one topic,

To get the argument straight - a Palestinian participating in a demonstration, and being shot is an outrage. A USA Jewish teen handing out food parcels for soldiers, and gets murdered, is regrettable-but... Wonder how the spin would go if he was a foreign teen protesting the occupation.

As for the families grief being similar - did the family praise him as a martyr for the cause? Proclaims vengeance on Palestinians?

And before the expected twisting of words, no...not all Palestinian families react this way - but many do.

The usual nonsense about Israel holding all the cards is something which no one with a meager knowledge of the facts can claim with a straight face. The only use of making such one-sided blanket claims is to create unreasonable expectations and whitewash all semblance of Palestinian accountability.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Morch

[Siamwhiteelephant]

Hold on. Didn't the Palistinians TURN DOWN the !949 lines? They have no right to that land.

Why should the Palestinians accept a plan devised by a foreign power to give 56% of their land away to 33% of the population?

Why did Zionists reject the 1937 Peel Commission Plan that would have saved the lives of 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

Without the intention of being personal, it is a departure from facts to claim that Zionists rejected the Peel Commission, exactly the opposite. It was the Arabs who rejected it, but: “The two main Jewish leaders, Chaim Weizmann and Ben Gurion had convinced the Zionist Congress to approve equivocally the Peel recommendations as a basis for more negotiation”. Is it any wonder that there was contention over it when earlier at the time of the Balfour Declaration in 1917 it was understood, that the Jewish National Home was to be established in the whole of historic Palestine, including Trans-Jordan (today’s Jordan). So they were losing out on a greatly diminished area of land allocated for their Homeland. Do you think the mythical Palestinians, who had been tribal, largely nomadic Arabs without state borders, were content with all of Jordan granted to them? No. Incidentally, Palestine was a name coined by the Roman invaders two millenniums ago. Also, it was the Jewish people, some of whom have maintained their presence on the land even during the past two millenniums, who developed the land from impoverished, arid land in the 19^th century to mostly productive, fertile land.

However, you are correct about the Holocaust. As Ben-Gurion later wrote after the Peel Commission: "Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed—most of them would be in Israel".

Edited November 20, 2015 by Siamwhiteelephant

[Mudcrab]

When did anything good ever come out of the middle east?

Fairy tales about the all powerful man in the sky has been the cause of conflict for over two thousand years. Doesn't matter if they are a jew or a muslim,They both claim the be the chosen ones.

Build a fence, give them unlimited guns and ammo and a year later there would be just one left.

Then shoot him. And it would be a him.

A lot of the worlds problems would be solved.

[i claudius]

In just one sentence, a massive outright falsehood. Blaming the Jews for the Holocaust, in effect. And, btw, messing up the history so badly that no mention is made of complete Arab rejection of the Peel commission, while Jewish reaction, even at the Zionist World Conference, was split. It really is clear what you are all about. All this to deflect from the murder of an American teenager.

Indeed. The Jews did NOT reject the Peel Commission plan completely. The Arabs DID. This LIE has been corrected numerous times, but he continues to post it anyway. Why do the Israel-haters have to rely on mostly dishonest narratives to make their points?

Because they have no other argument ,so lies and half truths are all they have , and you know the old saying "if you repeat a lie often enough etc

[Mudcrab]

It's not really very mysterious. The intentions of the Israel demonization agenda are painfully transparent.

As far as the question of shooting terrorists dead on the spot, what's the big deal? Would the obsessive Israeli demonization agenda question that in France? Isn't that their Islamist Jihadi dream, to be a martyr? Extra special bonus virgins for killing Jews.

In this case of the specific incident with the murdered American teen, it appears the terrorist was arrested alive.

Probably win a Mercedes sports car for killing a gay jew as 'Tonites Star Prize in Slay of the Century'....lookout JT

[Siamwhiteelephant]

Interesting to see some posters often programming themselves as great humanists, jump through hoops to justify violence.

Focusing on just one of the victims, because it might be played to deflect the issue and muddy the waters is all very fine - but there were other victims. Two well within Israel's borders, and doing nothing more than praying. Another victim being Palestinian. Why ignore them? Because it doesn't fit the agenda. Sure, if it was just those two murdered in Tel Aviv, the reasoning would be that it is justified because Israel...whatever. Not as good a spin as focusing on the murdered US teen, obviously. And not a word about the accidentally murdered Palestinian.

But alright, for those making the murdered USA teen the main act here - recall a while back, a Palestinian kid, also a USA citizen visiting his family, was killed by IDF fire. Don't think there was much outrage over visiting the West Bank in that case etc. Same goes for foreign volunteers coming over to the West Bank in order to support Palestinian causes.

The usual derailing of any concrete topic to agenda driven versions of history, particularly those which are obviously incorrect and thoroughly discussed many times, is to be expected when self-proclaimed humanists find it hard to accept their pet side does bad things too. Seemingly, accepting it is a huge issue, hence the denial.

For those supporting the Palestinian cause, may want to stop a minute and figure the probable consequences of the Tel-Aviv attack. The Palestinian who carried out this vile stabbing attack was working in Israel legally - as in having a permit. Can't offhand recall when was the last similar attack took place. Pretty sure that it will bring about additional restrictions on issuing such permits, which would have a negative effect on the Palestinians.

If you’re referring to my earlier post, well, read OMGImInPattaya words again: “at the scene”, meaning the scene on the West Bank, not the one in Tel Aviv. Even if both scenes were lumped together OMGImInPattaya’s claim doesn’t make sense and is without foundation. Furthermore, in both incidents it was a Palestinian who carried out the violence.

[Morch]

@Siamwhiteelephant - I wasn't referring to your post.

[Seastallion]

Hold on. Didn't the Palistinians TURN DOWN the !949 lines? They have no right to that land.

Why should the Palestinians accept a plan devised by a foreign power to give 56% of their land away to 33% of the population?

Why did Zionists reject the 1937 Peel Commission Plan that would have saved the lives of 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

[Seastallion]

Interesting to see some posters often programming themselves as great humanists, jump through hoops to justify violence.

Focusing on just one of the victims, because it might be played to deflect the issue and muddy the waters is all very fine - but there were other victims. Two well within Israel's borders, and doing nothing more than praying. Another victim being Palestinian. Why ignore them? Because it doesn't fit the agenda. Sure, if it was just those two murdered in Tel Aviv, the reasoning would be that it is justified because Israel...whatever. Not as good a spin as focusing on the murdered US teen, obviously. And not a word about the accidentally murdered Palestinian.

But alright, for those making the murdered USA teen the main act here - recall a while back, a Palestinian kid, also a USA citizen visiting his family, was killed by IDF fire. Don't think there was much outrage over visiting the West Bank in that case etc. Same goes for foreign volunteers coming over to the West Bank in order to support Palestinian causes.

The usual derailing of any concrete topic to agenda driven versions of history, particularly those which are obviously incorrect and thoroughly discussed many times, is to be expected when self-proclaimed humanists find it hard to accept their pet side does bad things too. Seemingly, accepting it is a huge issue, hence the denial.

For those supporting the Palestinian cause, may want to stop a minute and figure the probable consequences of the Tel-Aviv attack. The Palestinian who carried out this vile stabbing attack was working in Israel legally - as in having a permit. Can't offhand recall when was the last similar attack took place. Pretty sure that it will bring about additional restrictions on issuing such permits, which would have a negative effect on the Palestinians.

Justifying the reactions of a people who are occupied by a violent, racist, military is easy and morally correct. The teen was aiding the occupying force. He got what he should have at the very least considered a possibility. He knew the risks, we must presume.

The topic is the "US teen". We get suspended for going off-topic...please don't bait.

Tell me, why are there road blocks between Palestinian villages? Surely the occupying force is only interested in Palestinian "terrorists" entering Israeli territory, if indeed Israel is only interested in defense. Why hinder their every-day life?

[Morch]

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

And you are quite certain that all the Palestinians can trace their roots back to show "countless" generations of living in the land ? (if that's an acceptable term in the current Newspeak). Fair enough for some of the central families in the more influential clans, I suspect (which is a polite way of saying I know) that some of those who can actually track their family roots that far back would scoff at the peasantry putting up airs.

Where was this sentiment when the West Bank and the Gaza Strip under Jordanian and Egyptian rule? Were those occupations (not to say annexations) right? Does it make killings such as described in the OP more palatable?

[Morch]

Interesting to see some posters often programming themselves as great humanists, jump through hoops to justify violence.

Focusing on just one of the victims, because it might be played to deflect the issue and muddy the waters is all very fine - but there were other victims. Two well within Israel's borders, and doing nothing more than praying. Another victim being Palestinian. Why ignore them? Because it doesn't fit the agenda. Sure, if it was just those two murdered in Tel Aviv, the reasoning would be that it is justified because Israel...whatever. Not as good a spin as focusing on the murdered US teen, obviously. And not a word about the accidentally murdered Palestinian.

But alright, for those making the murdered USA teen the main act here - recall a while back, a Palestinian kid, also a USA citizen visiting his family, was killed by IDF fire. Don't think there was much outrage over visiting the West Bank in that case etc. Same goes for foreign volunteers coming over to the West Bank in order to support Palestinian causes.

The usual derailing of any concrete topic to agenda driven versions of history, particularly those which are obviously incorrect and thoroughly discussed many times, is to be expected when self-proclaimed humanists find it hard to accept their pet side does bad things too. Seemingly, accepting it is a huge issue, hence the denial.

For those supporting the Palestinian cause, may want to stop a minute and figure the probable consequences of the Tel-Aviv attack. The Palestinian who carried out this vile stabbing attack was working in Israel legally - as in having a permit. Can't offhand recall when was the last similar attack took place. Pretty sure that it will bring about additional restrictions on issuing such permits, which would have a negative effect on the Palestinians.

Justifying the reactions of a people who are occupied by a violent, racist, military is easy and morally correct. The teen was aiding the occupying force. He got what he should have at the very least considered a possibility. He knew the risks, we must presume.

The topic is the "US teen". We get suspended for going off-topic...please don't bait.

Tell me, why are there road blocks between Palestinian villages? Surely the occupying force is only interested in Palestinian "terrorists" entering Israeli territory, if indeed Israel is only interested in defense. Why hinder their every-day life?

So in your self-proclaimed morally superior view, murdering people is justified? Even if those are civilians who did not personally cause harm the attacker?

Understandably, you and others are obsessed with the USA teen, but once more - but surely, saying that the area is not safe and that there were risks which he was aware of are not quite the same as making the murder justified? One can support the Palestinian cause without agreeing or justifying every vile action taken in its name. Or so I believe, at least.

And no, the topic is not "US teen", even if some try to make it so - the OP is actually 'US teen' among five dead in West Bank and Tel Aviv attacks. The bait claim is just another poor deflection attempt. And from inane off-topic claims you go to questions about Israel's road block policy in the West Bank? Really?

[up-country_sinclair]

The 18 year old was not simply a tourist. He was actively assisisting an illegal army of occupation.

"Ezra Schwartz of Sharon, MA., was on his way to deliver snacks to IDF soldiers with a group classmates when the attack occurred."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687313

No one should have the slightest bit of sympathy for this guy. And if his family knew what he was up to (and presumably they did) they're not deserving of sympathy either.

Providing support to the IDF in the occupied territories? You get what you deserve.

[dexterm]

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

And you are quite certain that all the Palestinians can trace their roots back to show "countless" generations of living in the land ? (if that's an acceptable term in the current Newspeak). Fair enough for some of the central families in the more influential clans, I suspect (which is a polite way of saying I know) that some of those who can actually track their family roots that far back would scoff at the peasantry putting up airs.

Where was this sentiment when the West Bank and the Gaza Strip under Jordanian and Egyptian rule? Were those occupations (not to say annexations) right? Does it make killings such as described in the OP more palatable?

Better ask the Jewish Virtual Library where they got their figures from then.

In 1800 Jews formed a mere 8% (24,000) and Palestinians 92% (268,100) of the population.

Even in 1922 after the first waves of Zionist immigration when the first census was taken, Jews were only 11% of the population.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

The 18 year old was a foreigner aiding the IDF in their occupation, perpetuating what Zionists have been doing for over a 100 years. He knew the risks he was taking and the harm he was doing to the Palestinian residents by being a party to their repression.

[Scott]

A post advocating violence has been removed.

[Usernames]

The 18 year old was not simply a tourist. He was actively assisisting an illegal army of occupation.

"Ezra Schwartz of Sharon, MA., was on his way to deliver snacks to IDF soldiers with a group classmates when the attack occurred."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687313

No one should have the slightest bit of sympathy for this guy. And if his family knew what he was up to (and presumably they did) they're not deserving of sympathy either.

Providing support to the IDF in the occupied territories? You get what you deserve.

Sooo. You advocate murder and terrorism. This cat has been belled.

[Jingthing]

When did anything good ever come out of the middle east?

...

You should check out the Israeli cinema.

Great stuff!

[dexterm]

I think it is pretty disgusting that Netanyahu has tried to score poiltical points by conflating the killing of the teenager with unrelated events in Paris in order to whitewash the very essence of the Palestinian Israeli conflict...the occupation.

In a Facebook post, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu expressed his sympathy to the families of the victims. "Behind these terrorist attacks stands radical Islam, which seeks to destroy us, the same radical Islam that struck in Paris and threatens all of Europe," he said

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687313

[Seastallion]

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

And you are quite certain that all the Palestinians can trace their roots back to show "countless" generations of living in the land ? (if that's an acceptable term in the current Newspeak). Fair enough for some of the central families in the more influential clans, I suspect (which is a polite way of saying I know) that some of those who can actually track their family roots that far back would scoff at the peasantry putting up airs.

Where was this sentiment when the West Bank and the Gaza Strip under Jordanian and Egyptian rule? Were those occupations (not to say annexations) right? Does it make killings such as described in the OP more palatable?

Who said "all"? No doubt there a some relative newcomers.

It was and is a valid generalisation. What's your nitpick? If just ONE clan can trace their roots back centuries or decades, that's enough to argue that they have been displaced by an occupying force. Of course, as you concede, it is more than just one clan....and how many nuclear families are represented by those clans, how many individuals PEOPLE?

Unfortunately for Israel apologists, (or perhaps just as well), the internet was not up and running to promulgate how things were back in the day. Why is that pertinent now? Why should Jordanian or Egyptian behaviour decades ago excuse Israeli behaviour now?

Freedom fighters do what they feel they must. Considering the swathe of Israeli obstructions and humiliations to their daily lives, I really can empathise with their frustrations.

Something that you avoid...answering the question, "How would you feel and react if you were subjected to the daily abuses, violence, and oppression that Israel imposes at gun point to all Palestinians"? What would you feel and do if your crazy son threw a stone that hurt an occupier soldier, and thus the occupiers bulldozed your home? How would you feel if the occupiers built a wall to separate you from them...but did not build the wall on national boundaries, nor even in the middle, but right up as close as it could get to your village, thus cutting you off from your orchard? And thus making your garden deemed "not used" and so fair game for appropriation?

I could go on. You know I could. You know the grievances are pages long. How would you or your sons react? Tell me that. How would you or your sons react if what is done to the Palestinians was done to your family for decades?

[Jingthing]

The 18 year old was not simply a tourist. He was actively assisisting an illegal army of occupation.

"Ezra Schwartz of Sharon, MA., was on his way to deliver snacks to IDF soldiers with a group classmates when the attack occurred."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687313

No one should have the slightest bit of sympathy for this guy. And if his family knew what he was up to (and presumably they did) they're not deserving of sympathy either.

Providing support to the IDF in the occupied territories? You get what you deserve.

Sooo. You advocate murder and terrorism. This cat has been belled.

Nothing new here really.

[dave_boo]

Hold on. Didn't the Palistinians TURN DOWN the !949 lines? They have no right to that land.

Why should the Palestinians accept a plan devised by a foreign power to give 56% of their land away to 33% of the population?

Why did Zionists reject the 1937 Peel Commission Plan that would have saved the lives of 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

Countless?

5 generations per 100 years...1375 years....divide by 100...multiply by 5...

Wow, I'm glad I didn't have your education if you can't count up to 68...does go a long way to explaining your stance though.

The Jews have been there continuously since ca. 800 BCE...or ~141 generations.

[Seastallion]

The 18 year old was not simply a tourist. He was actively assisisting an illegal army of occupation.

"Ezra Schwartz of Sharon, MA., was on his way to deliver snacks to IDF soldiers with a group classmates when the attack occurred."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.687313

No one should have the slightest bit of sympathy for this guy. And if his family knew what he was up to (and presumably they did) they're not deserving of sympathy either.

Providing support to the IDF in the occupied territories? You get what you deserve.

Sooo. You advocate murder and terrorism. This cat has been belled.

Nothing new here really.

No, nothing new in the way Israel apologists refuse to concede that Palestinians have been under a brutal occupation for decades and can not be blamed for reacting violently.

What would YOU do if you were a Palestinian? Lie down and die? Let the occupiers take your olive grove? Shrug your shoulders and say, "Oi vey! They are too strong, let them take my home."?

Really....WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Hide behind your "ignore", but go to sleep with the question because you have read it. What would you do?

[dave_boo]

10 hours and 7 minutes, with 4 posts in this thread after I issued the challenge, and Seastallion still can not condemn the killing of an 18 year old kid.

Makes you wonder how he felt about what happened to Rachel Corrie...

[dave_boo]

When did anything good ever come out of the middle east?

Fairy tales about the all powerful man in the sky has been the cause of conflict for over two thousand years. Doesn't matter if they are a jew or a muslim,They both claim the be the chosen ones.

Build a fence, give them unlimited guns and ammo and a year later there would be just one left.

Then shoot him. And it would be a him.

A lot of the worlds problems would be solved.

Hummus...and falafel...and samoon...kabobs...etc.

Now I'm hungry.

[Seastallion]

hy should the Palestinians accept a plan devised by a foreign power to give 56% of their land away to 33% of the population?

Why did Zionists reject the 1937 Peel Commission Plan that would have saved the lives of 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust?

950,000 Arabs lived in present day Israel/"Palestine" in 1948.

West Bank and Gaza is 6,220 km². Israel is 22,702 km². Total is 28,922 km². Population density of 32.85/km². Or put another way, you're claiming that each and EVERY Arab (which is incredibly ignorant of their culture), owned 30,444.2m².

And the reason that they HAD to accept it is that THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN A STATE!

Get it through you head. They were a part of the Ottoman Empire and then a British Mandate. They never took the opportunity to create their own state. Their neighbours did, but they are so busy hating the Jews and trying to deny the historical connection to the Temple mount, the Tombs of the Patriarchs, etc. that they just never get around to stop trying to kill the Jews and actually live full productive lives.

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

Countless?

5 generations per 100 years...1375 years....divide by 100...multiply by 5...

Wow, I'm glad I didn't have your education if you can't count up to 68...does go a long way to explaining your stance though.

The Jews have been there continuously since ca. 800 BCE...or ~141 generations.

You base your silly response on the ridiculous notion that I can't count to 68. An idiotic response, and one that shows that your education in English and it's subtleties is lacking.

The "Jews have been there continuously..." deflection is acknowledged by all and sundry. What is not acknowledged by you is that at the time of partition, prior to the influx of Europeans, Jews made up about 5% of the population of the entire area. FIVE PERCENT.

Then came the European refugees.

Meanwhile, Arabs actually living there, were forcibly removed from their homes, and 20 years later, another lot of Arabs were occupied, and to this day remain under an invading force's brutal and apartheid rule,

Arabs have been there for longer than Jews.

[dave_boo]

Interesting to see some posters often programming themselves as great humanists, jump through hoops to justify violence.

Focusing on just one of the victims, because it might be played to deflect the issue and muddy the waters is all very fine - but there were other victims. Two well within Israel's borders, and doing nothing more than praying. Another victim being Palestinian. Why ignore them? Because it doesn't fit the agenda. Sure, if it was just those two murdered in Tel Aviv, the reasoning would be that it is justified because Israel...whatever. Not as good a spin as focusing on the murdered US teen, obviously. And not a word about the accidentally murdered Palestinian.

But alright, for those making the murdered USA teen the main act here - recall a while back, a Palestinian kid, also a USA citizen visiting his family, was killed by IDF fire. Don't think there was much outrage over visiting the West Bank in that case etc. Same goes for foreign volunteers coming over to the West Bank in order to support Palestinian causes.

The usual derailing of any concrete topic to agenda driven versions of history, particularly those which are obviously incorrect and thoroughly discussed many times, is to be expected when self-proclaimed humanists find it hard to accept their pet side does bad things too. Seemingly, accepting it is a huge issue, hence the denial.

For those supporting the Palestinian cause, may want to stop a minute and figure the probable consequences of the Tel-Aviv attack. The Palestinian who carried out this vile stabbing attack was working in Israel legally - as in having a permit. Can't offhand recall when was the last similar attack took place. Pretty sure that it will bring about additional restrictions on issuing such permits, which would have a negative effect on the Palestinians.

Justifying the reactions of a people who are occupied by a violent, racist, military is easy and morally correct. The teen was aiding the occupying force. He got what he should have at the very least considered a possibility. He knew the risks, we must presume.

The topic is the "US teen". We get suspended for going off-topic...please don't bait.

Tell me, why are there road blocks between Palestinian villages? Surely the occupying force is only interested in Palestinian "terrorists" entering Israeli territory, if indeed Israel is only interested in defense. Why hinder their every-day life?

Obviously you've never been in the military and have absolutely no clue as to what force protection is.

[dave_boo]

Get it through your head.....regardless of the semantics of the words "state", "region", "empire", "mandate", "country"...these people LIVED there for countless generations. Bring along a new word, and it doesn't make it right to evict them or militarily occupy them.

Countless?

5 generations per 100 years...1375 years....divide by 100...multiply by 5...

Wow, I'm glad I didn't have your education if you can't count up to 68...does go a long way to explaining your stance though.

The Jews have been there continuously since ca. 800 BCE...or ~141 generations.

You base your silly response on the ridiculous notion that I can't count to 68. An idiotic response, and one that shows that your education in English and it's subtleties is lacking.

The "Jews have been there continuously..." deflection is acknowledged by all and sundry. What is not acknowledged by you is that at the time of partition, prior to the influx of Europeans, Jews made up about 5% of the population of the entire area. FIVE PERCENT.

Then came the European refugees.

Meanwhile, Arabs actually living there, were forcibly removed from their homes, and 20 years later, another lot of Arabs were occupied, and to this day remain under an invading force's brutal and apartheid rule,

Arabs have been there for longer than Jews.

I don't think it's a ridiculous notion. You yourself used the word "countless". Explain how you are saying it's countless when the Muslim Arabs have only been there since 640 CE? I'll admit that perhaps my English education and subtleties is lacking compared to your apparently vast experience (teaching ESL? although that's debatable due to your use of contractional rather than possessive); that however in no way detracts from my critical thinking nor my intelligence quota both of which seem to vastly outstrip your apparent feeble attempts to project a superior intellect with.

Your "at the time of the partition...Jews made up about 5% of the population" is complete and utter hogwash...unless you are including Jordan and Syrian population. If you're not, please provide a link with the relevant information.

Do you know what apartheid rule is? Are the proper owners (you know the ones with deeds...not squatters throwing up huts and claiming their families have been there countless (555+) generations, being forced out en masse? Are they being denied Knesset seats? Are they being stripped of their citizenships and forced to become a citizen of a pseudo-terroritory? Is there separate medical facilities for Arab Muslims and Jews? Etc.

If the answers to all those questions are 'no' (and here's a hint...they are all no), than perhaps your education in English and its subtleties is not as sublime as you'd like to make it out to be. Either that or it is deliberate sophistry on your part.

I'm going with out and out paralogism due to the laughable line "Arabs have been there for longer than Jews.

Edited November 20, 2015 by dave_boo