Turkey 'shoots down' warplane near Syrian-Turkish border

[Ace of Pop]

The Turkey is angry at seeing his mates being killed for Christmas.

[Maestro]

'Turkey gave no warning' - downed Russian pilot

4 hours ago

The surviving pilot of a Russian plane shot down by Turkey on the Syrian border has said no warning was given.

Capt Konstantin Murakhtin told Russian television there was "no way" the jet could have violated Turkish airspace, as Turkey said it did.

Russia said Capt Murakhtin was rescued from rebel-held territory in Syria in a 12-hour operation involving special forces.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229

-- BBC 2015-11-26

[geriatrickid]

So what would you do if you were Putin right now ?

My prediction

IMO the most obvious step would be to provide fighter escorts for the bombers, so I think that Russia will now provide each SU 24/34 with a couple of Mig's to protect them, they may even cross into Turkey airspace to provoke a confrontation, it would be a bold step but I wouldn't put it beyong Putin to do such a thing, it would also be a very serious escalation

The esculator has already struck, tha.t the sicko Turks that help ISIS buy blackmarket trading in oil and running guns and reinforcements across the border to ISIS.

There are 3 markets for oil sold by non authorized entities from Syria and Iraq;

1. Turkey 2. Iran and 3. Jordan.

According to the UNHCR Syrian refugees are primarily located in 3 countries;

Turkey 2.1 million , Jordan 634,000, Lebanon 1 million. The EU has approximately 150,000. Russia, China, Cuba, Brazil, the Gulf states, the Arab diaspora, South Africa, Bolivia, Ecuador and all the other western bashers have not taken any Syrian refugees.

As much as I believe Turkey has some dirty hands, the fact of the matter is that Turkey has been stuck with the bulk of Syrian refugees. Is it any wonder why its patience has worn thin? I don't doubt for a minute that some nefarious people in Turkey and Jordan are profiting from the ISIL oil exports. Corruption is a way of life in that part of the world. There is a double standard though. iran and Jordan have been taking the oil and no one has said anything.

Some time ago westerners were quick to take to the streets to support the Turkish backed 'freedom flotillas" to Gaza. They ignored the concerns that Turkey was trying to stir the pot, that Egypt was opposed as well as Greece, Cyprus and Israel. And now we have Turkey looking to cause a confrontation and evidence that it is indeed doing business with terrorists.

Not a word from our western protestors.

[Puccini]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

[Credo]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

Is the dropping of bombs on the people in the area murder or is it justified?

Regardless, it is sad for many.

[Langsuan Man]

Off topic or not, the Russians have a long history of shooting first and asking questions later (if at all)

I guess everyone has forgotten their shooting down of a commercial Korean Air 747 flight 007 where 269 pax died in 1983 and forcing down Korean Air 707 Flight 902 in 1978, where luckily only two passengers died

A few days earlier the RAF had to "escort" Russian Bombers on their way to Syria via the Med

[Puccini]

Apparently, Turkey has published two different approximate flight paths allegedly taken by the Russian plane, in the above diagram shown in dark green and light green. With either of these routes, how long would the plane have been in Turkish air space? Long enough to communicate ten warnings to the Russian pilot and then to shoot it down?

Edited November 26, 2015 by Puccini

[Puccini]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

Is the dropping of bombs on the people in the area murder or is it justified?

Regardless, it is sad for many.

From a purely legal point of view, how does your post answer my question?

[Maestro]

Removed a post with an off-topic image.

[Tywais]

how long would the plane have been in Turkish air space? Long enough to communicate ten warnings to the Russian pilot and then to shoot it down?

Using the route through Turkish airspace and a moderate speed of 600km/hr and the distance across that point is 2.55km it would take around 15 seconds to traverse it.

//edit - just found this comment "But even by Ankara's reckoning, the plane was only over Turkish territory for 17 seconds, raising questions here about the scale of the response."

bbc

[Maestro]

Apparently, Turkey has published two different approximate flight paths allegedly taken by the Russian plane, in the above diagram shown in dark green and light green. With either of these routes, how long would the plane have been in Turkish air space? Long enough to communicate ten warnings to the Russian pilot and then to shoot it down?

The AP article in the OP says the plane was in Turkish air space for 17 seconds, according to Turkish sources. From the diagram, the plane was over Turkey for 3.5 to 3.7 km, which equates to a ground speed of 741 to 784 km/h.

Another AP article also quotes Turkey as saying that the plane was warned several times – although I believe also to have seen other news reports mentioning 10 times.

The OP mentions that the warnings started already as the plane was approaching Turkish air space, which I believe would be normal procedure, ie not wait until it is already in Turkish airspace. This means that the several – or 10 – warnings might have been given over a period of as long as one minute.

[jpinx]

Neither the russians not turks can say much since they both regularly infringe other countries' airspace. This incident happened in a warzone where the normal rules are suspended. Needless to say both countries will try to extract the maximum leverage from the situation, but it looks like Turkey has gained little.

[manarak]

Apparently, Turkey has published two different approximate flight paths allegedly taken by the Russian plane, in the above diagram shown in dark green and light green. With either of these routes, how long would the plane have been in Turkish air space? Long enough to communicate ten warnings to the Russian pilot and then to shoot it down?

The AP article in the OP says the plane was in Turkish air space for 17 seconds, according to Turkish sources. From the diagram, the plane was over Turkey for 3.5 to 3.7 km, which equates to a ground speed of 741 to 784 km/h.

Another AP article also quotes Turkey as saying that the plane was warned several times – although I believe also to have seen other news reports mentioning 10 times.

The OP mentions that the warnings started already as the plane was approaching Turkish air space, which I believe would be normal procedure, ie not wait until it is already in Turkish airspace. This means that the several – or 10 – warnings might have been given over a period of as long as one minute.

Even if the Turkish version of the flight paths is true, the Russian plane never had a trajectory penetrating deeper into Turkish airpace.

it becomes increasing clear that Turkey planned this and just waited on a petty opportunity to shoot a Russian plane down.

it's all about their support for the Allah Akhbar shouting Turkmen militia outfits in that area which are led on the ground by Turkish fascists.

[derator01]

Please stick to the topic.

[manarak]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

Is the dropping of bombs on the people in the area murder or is it justified?

Regardless, it is sad for many.

According to the US, the militias there are pro-democracy, but expecting mercy from that uneducated islamist bunch after they have been bombed is probably too much. You heard it too.. Allah Akhbar!

Edited November 26, 2015 by manarak

[Credo]

How serious all this is to Turkey depends a lot on what military assets Turkey may have in the region.

[maykilceksin]

The killer of the Russian pilots have been identified as a Turkish citizen Alparslan Çelik from Elazig who is the son of a Turkish mayor and not a Syrian Turkmen, but a member of Turkey's gray wolves.

source please?

and check that, Russian companies blacklisted bc they are doing oil business with ISIS.

DELETED

so, Russia is supporting ISIS from the back and bombing them from front?

Russia claims they are in Syria to help Assad Regime and fight with ISIS bit in the meantime, they want ISIS to stay strong as that is the only way Russia can keep Assad and their bases and land there.

'U.S. officials have long voiced concerns that the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was strengthening Islamic State’s finances by purchasing oil produced by the militant group on territory that used to be controlled by Damascus.'

'The U.S. Treasury Department also penalized Russian and Cypriot businessmen and companies suspected of helping the Syrian central bank evade international sanctions through a web of companies based in Russia, Cyprus and Belize.'

'Among those blacklisted is Kirsan Ilyumzhinov, a former president of the autonomous Russian Republic of Kalmykia. Mr. Ilyumzhinov is a long-serving president of the World Chess Federation, according to the Treasury Department.'

Edited November 27, 2015 by seedy
off topic

[Thorgal]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

Is the dropping of bombs on the people in the area murder or is it justified?

Regardless, it is sad for many.

According to the US, the militias there are pro-democracy, but expecting mercy from that uneducated islamist bunch after they have been bombed is probably too much. You heard it too.. Allah Akhbar!

The Russian rescue helicopter was neutralised with a US TOW missile by the Turkmen 'moderated rebels'...

[craigt3365]

Even if the Turkish version of the flight paths is true, the Russian plane never had a trajectory penetrating deeper into Turkish airpace.

it becomes increasing clear that Turkey planned this and just waited on a petty opportunity to shoot a Russian plane down.

it's all about their support for the Allah Akhbar shouting Turkmen militia outfits in that area which are led on the ground by Turkish fascists.

The Turkmen are not arabs. They are ethnic Turks. Have been abused by Assad and are fighting back. So Russia bombs them. And that makes Turkey mad as Russia keeps saying they are bombing ISIS, which these Turkmen rebels are trying to fight. A mess. Russia should stick to bombing ISIS.

[maykilceksin]

Recep Tayip Erdogan's son "BILAL ERDOGAN" with his ISIS brothers

f...k b. erdogan actually. but who is he? not a politician not a prime minister. they are as bad as Putin.

but check the Putin with ISIS people and their bosses then:

you are just misleading people, every bearded person is not from isis or they dont mean they are Islamist.

all hipsters are islamist then?

check the hipster islamist:

you are just making the waters muddy by posting misleading information here. the information you post is also liked by people which is strange.

ignorance is bliss for you guys i guess:) dont be too naive and dont believe and like all the information you see around without any check.

[craigt3365]

Even if the Turkish version of the flight paths is true, the Russian plane never had a trajectory penetrating deeper into Turkish airpace.

it becomes increasing clear that Turkey planned this and just waited on a petty opportunity to shoot a Russian plane down.

it's all about their support for the Allah Akhbar shouting Turkmen militia outfits in that area which are led on the ground by Turkish fascists.

The Turkmen are not arabs. They are ethnic Turks. Have been abused by Assad and are fighting back. So Russia bombs them. And that makes Turkey mad as Russia keeps saying they are bombing ISIS, which these Turkmen rebels are trying to fight. A mess. Russia should stick to bombing ISIS.

Russia has to bomb everybody.

They are all fighting Assad.

You can't pick and choose rebels...everybody gets smoked.

Right. Like this warplane. It got smoked.

[mcfish]

If they thought the Russians were going to bomb them then they had every right but of course that was never the case. Now what they should of done was cross in front of the bomber then add more warnings so the Russians could see they were serious , this is what the USA and Russia does but instead the unseen F16's shot them . That is the equivalent of a stab in the back so I can see why Putin is pissed

[maykilceksin]

I had a bad feeling from the very beginning of the Syrian conflict when the so-called 'Syrian opposition meetings' were held many times in my country, Turkey. I had a feeling that this would drag Turkey into the Syrian mess and would have many negative consequences. My fears came true. Of course, another sad thing is that many Western countries supported these meetings. I think those meetings did nothing but help the Islamist groups get stronger and stronger.

Not only it is bad enough that my country is run by mollah-wannabe fascists but also very bad that the country's reputation throughout the world is sinking lower and lower.

Non-fascist Turks don't deserve this mess. By the way, many nationalist Turks also support the Islamist government in this latest issue. In Turkey, many times, Islamists and nationalists come together in force. Fascism-brotherhood.

non fascist turks of course do not deserve this mess and hate Erdogan and their islamic roots and wrong politics both foreign and domestic.

but they also do not support Russian to come all the way from their countries to Syria and mess around and kill people in a land not belong to Russia and in a land people lives for thousands of years together.

Also no non fascist turk, say it leftist, communist or whatever, support any foreign power disregarding the foreign sovereignty and violation of borders regularly.

so, what they can do? Do nothing while some countries come to the borders all the way from thousands of kms away, violate, disrespect the borders intentionally and test the patience and create problems?

it is Russia doing war mongering there and just to keep their bases and land in Syria, nothing else.

[JHolmesJr]

The Turkmen are not arabs. They are ethnic Turks. Have been abused by Assad and are fighting back. So Russia bombs them. And that makes Turkey mad as Russia keeps saying they are bombing ISIS, which these Turkmen rebels are trying to fight. A mess. Russia should stick to bombing ISIS.

Russia has to bomb everybody.

They are all fighting Assad.

You can't pick and choose rebels...everybody gets smoked.

The turkmen should then bugger off back to turkey if they don't like assad….i hope russia lays waste to that entire area….if you're carrying a weapon and you're not in the syrian army uniform, you're fair game.

[maykilceksin]

Was the killing by gunfire of the pilot floating down to earth on his parachute justified, or was it murder?

Is the dropping of bombs on the people in the area murder or is it justified?

Regardless, it is sad for many.

From a purely legal point of view, how does your post answer my question?

legal point of view?

killing civilians claiming they are ISIS?

legal point of Russia being in Syria?

it is a war crime to fire rounds to parachutes but you bomb people and their families and kill them and expect them to be nice?

[derator01]

Please stick to the topic.

Bump.

[stevenl]

If they thought the Russians were going to bomb them then they had every right but of course that was never the case. Now what they should of done was cross in front of the bomber then add more warnings so the Russians could see they were serious , this is what the USA and Russia does but instead the unseen F16's shot them . That is the equivalent of a stab in the back so I can see why Putin is pissed

Putin is not pissed because of this plane. He is pissed because he noticed he can't freely do what he wants.

[maykilceksin]

The Turkmen are not arabs. They are ethnic Turks. Have been abused by Assad and are fighting back. So Russia bombs them. And that makes Turkey mad as Russia keeps saying they are bombing ISIS, which these Turkmen rebels are trying to fight. A mess. Russia should stick to bombing ISIS.

Russia has to bomb everybody.

They are all fighting Assad.

You can't pick and choose rebels...everybody gets smoked.

The turkmen should then bugger off back to turkey if they don't like assad….i hope russia lays waste to that entire area….if you're carrying a weapon and you're not in the syrian army uniform, you're fair game.

is it Russia's business to do that?

Let Assad do it by his army!

that is fair game. it is not fair for people living there for thousands of years get bombed by Russia which is a Northern country thousands of km away and it has no ethnic and historical relationship on that are too.

[craigt3365]

Turkey is also upset by Russia's annexation of Crimea. Lots of ethnic Turks there. They just took out the power lines a few days ago in protest of Russia's invasion and poor treatment of this ethnic minority.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/872873-crimea-state-of-emergency-declared/

Crimean Tatars, an ethnic group opposed to Russian rule, have held a protest at the site.

an ethnic group native to Crimean peninsula
origins date back to 14th century
245,000 living in Crimea
they seek “ethnic and territorial autonomy” for Crimean Tatars using “political and legal” means

These aggressive actions are starting to come back and bite Putin very hard.

[maykilceksin]

If they thought the Russians were going to bomb them then they had every right but of course that was never the case. Now what they should of done was cross in front of the bomber then add more warnings so the Russians could see they were serious , this is what the USA and Russia does but instead the unseen F16's shot them . That is the equivalent of a stab in the back so I can see why Putin is pissed

Putin is not pissed because of this plane. He is pissed because he noticed he can't freely do what he wants.

totally agree on this. a big slap to Putin Russia. Most of my Russian friends hate Putin too anyway saying how dictator he is and how Russia is run with dictatorship and tyranny again. When Putin is gone, i am sure Russia will be a better country and place and that is what Russian friends say more than me!

Russia is warned at 6 different meeting in October by Turkish officials for border violations, last being done last Thursday and Russia again warned last time on not violating the Turkish border anymore or accept the dire consequences might occur which occurred. so it is not back stabbing at any way. You can check this by a simple google search. Russia is warned many times but they did not stop as they think they can do whatever they want.

Russia and its expansionist policies creating these problems. Turkey, EU, USA and other countries in Middle East or lets say whichever country that holds some common sense and vision are suspicious on Russian expansionist policies. Hence the embargo by EU and USA along with some UN countries to Russia due to Ukraine invasion.

Also Russia;'s centuries long policy of reaching and basing at hot waters. They are now based at hot waters by keeping their bases in Syria and it is their only chance to be based and reach hot waters easily. So, they most probably want to annex some land from Syria and that is why they are there, same as Ukraine.

they did it in Ukraine. Invaded Ukraine, armed the rebels - resulted on a passenger plane down and worst countless Ukrainians' death - and annexed land in an illegitimate way.

This is the first time in 66 years a NATO member shot down a Russian plane.

So at least a country can resist Russian expansionist policies and can say 'You cannot do what you want all the time and have no right to be here and violate my borders' by shooting down a Russian plane. not many dared this. so every NATO country have to appreciate Turkey's daring move.

Because, Putin's policy is creating a Russian Empire again and make it reach its glorious days and bringing cold war back ad this is allegedly going on in Ukraine and now in Syria and tomorrow god knows where?

just wake up guys.

Edited November 26, 2015 by maykilceksin