Retirement extention refuse in Bangkok CW

[JLCrab]

The Portland OR Honorary Consulate requires only for a US citizen that you be physically in the USA when you submit your application and that you have a bank statement that shows $US 7000 (with no mention of equivalent currency statement) with additional requirements for a non-US Passport holder.

[jollyhangmon]

The Portland OR Honorary Consulate requires only for a US citizen that you be physically in the USA when you submit your application and that you have a bank statement that shows $US 7000 (with no mention of equivalent currency statement) with additional requirements for a non-US Passport holder.

Now, that makes sense, reasonable folks there in Portland/OR, no question about that, congrats.

Honorary Consulate, well, i can already imagine various Embassies - especially European btw. - twisting in any imaginable direction, way & form about this particular matter ...!

[LatPhrao]

Does anyone have recent experience with the number of copies required for a renewal/extension of retirement visa aka Non-immigrant "O" visa to bring to Chaengwattana, for each of the following?

Competed TM7 form

passport photograph

photocopies of (passport information page, current visa page, entry stamp page, departure card

address registration

proof of income

These are what I remember being required last time of renewal.

The referenced page of the Foreign Ministry for applying Non "O imm visa has more requirements but, without saying it, I think their info is for first time applicant or applicant in a foreign country Thai embassy.

[elviajero]

I agree that arguing is futile but the immigration website is clear that seasoning is required for the combination method.

IMO the police orders that get quoted on this forum can be interpreted two ways, but regardless it's important to know that they are not the only instructions that the IO's go by.

That is only your opinion and it is not what it says. It says documents not anything about requirements.

The FAQ section on a the immigration is certainly not official. Only the police order counts and it states seasoning in is not needed. That part of the police order has not changed since about 2006 or before.

The document (bank book) in 2.1 must satisfy the specified requirements of that document. They amount to the same thing. If the combination method did not require seasoned funds it would say so in 2.3 and wouldn't refer back to 2.1. But as 2.3 asks for the same documents required in 2.1 the requirements are obviously the same.

“2.1. “The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)”

The FAQ section on the immigration website is 100% official and is information for foreigners wanting extensions etc. The police orders are, although public, for the IO's use and do not state that "seasoning is not needed” as you claim. I accept that it they can be interpreted that way, but it's in no way definitive.

You are not privy to every order/instruction given to immigration officers and any other, unknown to you, orders/instructions count too. The police order does not contain everything currently being asked for by offices which is evidence that the police orders are subject to change/interpretation/addition and not the only orders in play.

Anyone without knowledge of the history behind the combination method that reads the immigration website cannot fail to conclude that an up to date passbook showing the funds deposited for 2/3 months is required.

[mommysboy]

I agree that arguing is futile but the immigration website is clear that seasoning is required for the combination method.

IMO the police orders that get quoted on this forum can be interpreted two ways, but regardless it's important to know that they are not the only instructions that the IO's go by.

That is only your opinion and it is not what it says. It says documents not anything about requirements.

The FAQ section on a the immigration is certainly not official. Only the police order counts and it states seasoning in is not needed. That part of the police order has not changed since about 2006 or before.

The document (bank book) in 2.1 must satisfy the specified requirements of that document. They amount to the same thing. If the combination method did not require seasoned funds it would say so in 2.3 and wouldn't refer back to 2.1. But as 2.3 asks for the same documents required in 2.1 the requirements are obviously the same.

“2.1. “The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)”

The FAQ section on the immigration website is 100% official and is information for foreigners wanting extensions etc. The police orders are, although public, for the IO's use and do not state that "seasoning is not needed” as you claim. I accept that it they can be interpreted that way, but it's in no way definitive.

You are not privy to every order/instruction given to immigration officers and any other, unknown to you, orders/instructions count too. The police order does not contain everything currently being asked for by offices which is evidence that the police orders are subject to change/interpretation/addition and not the only orders in play.

Anyone without knowledge of the history behind the combination method that reads the immigration website cannot fail to conclude that an up to date passbook showing the funds deposited for 2/3 months is required.

But you see the law is the law. It's what is written down in the statute, not what someone has decided to write on the website.

[balo]

Another optiion is to use a visa agent that will" take care" everything for you , but we are not allowed to discuss that here on Thaivisa.

[elviajero]

I agree that arguing is futile but the immigration website is clear that seasoning is required for the combination method.

IMO the police orders that get quoted on this forum can be interpreted two ways, but regardless it's important to know that they are not the only instructions that the IO's go by.

That is only your opinion and it is not what it says. It says documents not anything about requirements.

The FAQ section on a the immigration is certainly not official. Only the police order counts and it states seasoning in is not needed. That part of the police order has not changed since about 2006 or before.

The document (bank book) in 2.1 must satisfy the specified requirements of that document. They amount to the same thing. If the combination method did not require seasoned funds it would say so in 2.3 and wouldn't refer back to 2.1. But as 2.3 asks for the same documents required in 2.1 the requirements are obviously the same.

“2.1. “The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)”

The FAQ section on the immigration website is 100% official and is information for foreigners wanting extensions etc. The police orders are, although public, for the IO's use and do not state that "seasoning is not needed” as you claim. I accept that it they can be interpreted that way, but it's in no way definitive.

You are not privy to every order/instruction given to immigration officers and any other, unknown to you, orders/instructions count too. The police order does not contain everything currently being asked for by offices which is evidence that the police orders are subject to change/interpretation/addition and not the only orders in play.

Anyone without knowledge of the history behind the combination method that reads the immigration website cannot fail to conclude that an up to date passbook showing the funds deposited for 2/3 months is required.

But you see the law is the law. It's what is written down in the statute, not what someone has decided to write on the website.

Nothing being discussed is law. All the law says is that the Director General has the power to grant extensions of stay not exceeding one year. The law doesn't dictate who can apply or what criteria has to be met.

The website is the official immigration website and although I wouldn't guarantee it's complete accuracy it provides current/relevant information for foreigners.

[DisparateDan]

Once upon a time I had a 3 year Work Permit, from 1968 as I recall.

[JLCrab]

Just to note that the translated heading of the current Police Order states:

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

Consideration. Not ironclad determinative.

[andybangkok]

So I have to go on Dec. 16 to have a 30 day on arrival

I look every country with Air Asia. They have a sale now

So the cheapest is HCMC (saigon)

16 dec - Depart at 13pm arrive at 14.50

16dec.- to bkk depart 9.30pm arrive 11.00

So i have to wait 1 hour to be dec 17 as i have a multiple entries and don't want to use it as i will be at square 1

Total cost is very cheap at 2,000 return

Vietnam visa is 25.00 + 19.00 for booking online

So not bad after all

But even that i did not expect to travel anywhere in December

Ubonjoe is it ok that way ?

[BritTim]

So I have to go on Dec. 16 to have a 30 day on arrival

I look every country with Air Asia. They have a sale now

So the cheapest is HCMC (saigon)

16 dec - Depart at 13pm arrive at 14.50

16dec.- to bkk depart 9.30pm arrive 11.00

So i have to wait 1 hour to be dec 17 as i have a multiple entries and don't want to use it as i will be at square 1

Total cost is very cheap at 2,000 return

Vietnam visa is 25.00 + 19.00 for booking online

So not bad after all

But even that i did not expect to travel anywhere in December

Ubonjoe is it ok that way ?

I am not sure I understand your entire post, but a couple of comments:

• I agree the flight to HCMC is a good deal. On the visa, Vietnam does not require a visa for transit passengers. If you transited from your arrival flight to your departure without going through immigration, Vietnam would be fine with that. There might, though, be an issue with Thai immigration when you reenter Thailand. They could claim that, since you never officially entered Vietnam, your border hop was invalid. From anecdotal reports I have heard, most immigration officials do not raise this unless they suspect you of never boarding your flights, but I have heard some do. Maybe, some duty free from HCMC transit lounge might help, or not?
• Bearing in mind visa fees, Air Asia to KL may be cheaper.
• I get the impression that you think by delaying going through immigration from 11:00 pm until 00.04 am, this will change the date on your entry stamp. I am almost certain that is not true. The entry stamp will reflect when your flight arrived.

Edited December 3, 2015 by BritTim

[andybangkok]

On arrival I will go to the Vietnam immigration to have a stamp & after i go to the departure and immigration again to have a stamp out

[ubonjoe]

So I have to go on Dec. 16 to have a 30 day on arrival

I look every country with Air Asia. They have a sale now

So the cheapest is HCMC (saigon)

16 dec - Depart at 13pm arrive at 14.50

16dec.- to bkk depart 9.30pm arrive 11.00

So i have to wait 1 hour to be dec 17 as i have a multiple entries and don't want to use it as i will be at square 1

Total cost is very cheap at 2,000 return

Vietnam visa is 25.00 + 19.00 for booking online

So not bad after all

But even that i did not expect to travel anywhere in December

Ubonjoe is it ok that way ?

You will not have to wait until the 17th. They would not use the re-entry permit to stamp you into the country unless you asked them to.

Even if you entered a day or 2 before the re-entry permit expires they would not use the re-entry permit without asking you about it.

Your travel plans seem to be good.

[andybangkok]

Great. Thank you

[mommysboy]

Just to note that the translated heading of the current Police Order states:

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

Consideration. Not ironclad determinative.

Obviously there are other factors to consider, for instance if the applicant is determined likely to be a threat to the country, violent conduct, mental issues, then it matters not a jot that paperwork is in order.

But what we are talking about on this thread is the black and white financial requirements.

All this is really theoretical, in the end it comes down to what IO and/or the officer decides is the 'right' interpretation. It does no good to muddy waters with conjecture embellished with borrowed clauses from one source or another to explain the idiosynchratic behaviour of the powers that be.

Much better to be pragmatic and just tell it the way it is.

[mommysboy]

Great. Thank you

You've handled this really well.

[JLCrab]

Just to note that the translated heading of the current Police Order states:

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

Consideration. Not ironclad determinative.

Obviously there are other factors to consider, for instance if the applicant is determined likely to be a threat to the country, violent conduct, mental issues, then it matters not a jot that paperwork is in order.

But what we are talking about on this thread is the black and white financial requirements.

All this is really theoretical, in the end it comes down to what IO and/or the officer decides is the 'right' interpretation. It does no good to muddy waters with conjecture embellished with borrowed clauses from one source or another to explain the idiosynchratic behaviour of the powers that be.

Much better to be pragmatic and just tell it the way it is.

If you want to get down to it, neither the Police order ORDER OF THE IMMIGRATION BUREAU

No. 138/2557

Subject: Supporting documents for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand at 2.22

nor (ROYAL EMBLEM)

ORDER OF THE IMMIGRATION BUREAU

No. 327/2557

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand at 2.22 specifically mentions that a combination of monthly income and bank deposit can be used for financial evidence for a retirement extension at all.

The supporting documents order at 2..2 mentions monthly income and/or bank account but does not specifically state anything regarding a 'combination method' as it is generally referred

Edited December 4, 2015 by JLCrab

[ubonjoe]

They don't call it combination but it is shown.

From clause 2.22 of 327/2557.

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date.

From 2.22 of 138/2557. Note the and/or statement.

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook

[JLCrab]

I DID note the and/or in the supporting documents but:

1. There is no mention in the Police Order itself of any and/or which may be primary.

2. It does not say in the supporting documents that -- because of using the 'AND' -- that there is no 60 or 90 day requirement for funds to be resident in the supporting bank account.

[ubonjoe]

There is no and/or in 327/2557 because (5) states both of them on the filing date.

[JLCrab]

OK. I'll swallow that one. Not only that but it says for the 'bank only' at 4. that the funds must be in "in a bank in Thailand" but it does not say '"In Thailand" for item 5. Mea Culpa.

However in reading some of the first pages of this topic it seems that Bangkok Immigration is taking the words 'for Consideration' in both the Police Order and the Supporting documents Order seriously and feels it is within their purview to require seasoning of 2 or 3 months on the Combination of income and funds in a bank account.

Personally I have no bank account in Thailand that ever has more than a coupe hundred dollars in it and I intend to keep it that way.

Edited December 4, 2015 by JLCrab

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm not sure I see the point here of extensively debating the meaning and wording of the Immigration's website language and/or Police Orders. The fact is, Immigration offices do what they want within the broad guidelines of the regulations, but the details and specific implementations have always varied from office to office to some extent.

The simple fact and reality is, BKK CW used to NOT require seasoning of bank funds for combo method retirement extensions. But, as of 1+ year ago, they changed and now ARE requiring seasoning of bank funds for combo method retirement extensions, as the OP found out to his dismay in this case.

Over the past year, various of those posters here who've gotten caught out by the change in policy on bank funds have tried to point to and argue the meaning of the actual language in the Immigration Police Orders with Immigration staff. And guess what that got them... absolutely nothing. Immigration at CW simply responded, that's our policy and that's what we're enforcing. And if you don't comply with that, no extension.

Everything else is pretty much irrelevant in the real world.

[andybangkok]

Thanks very much to all members on ThaiVisa who gives me good advices & great informations on this subject

Hope this topic will help others.

But never thinking that this subject will have a great response like that

Ok i know now that it is "extension" & not "extention"

[JLCrab]

I'm not sure I see the point here of extensively debating the meaning and wording of the Immigration's website language and/or Police Orders. The fact is, Immigration offices do what they want within the broad guidelines of the regulations, but the details and specific implementations have always varied from office to office to some extent.

The simple fact and reality is, BKK CW used to NOT require seasoning of bank funds for combo method retirement extensions. But, as of 1+ year ago, they changed and now ARE requiring seasoning of bank funds for combo method retirement extensions, as the OP found out to his dismay in this case.

Over the past year, various of those posters here who've gotten caught out by the change in policy on bank funds have tried to point to and argue the meaning of the actual language in the Immigration Police Orders with Immigration staff. And guess what that got them... absolutely nothing. Immigration at CW simply responded, that's our policy and that's what we're enforcing. And if you don't comply with that, no extension.

Everything else is pretty much irrelevant in the real world.

Yes, and as referenced above, my guess would be that they had a bunch of people come in with Income statements of 5K baht per month (60K per year) and then said that my 740K bank balance can be as of date of application no 60 or 90 day untouched in account required. The Police Order Says "for Consideration" of extension. The IMM people in Bangkok considered it and then said NUTS! to that. Perfectly consistent with the Police Order.

Edited December 4, 2015 by JLCrab

[DisparateDan]

A few years ago my extension was refused as my 800K on Deposit was linked to a Credit Card, which I never used or intended to use.

I was somewhat pressured int getting it (2 actually) by a nice lady at the bank.

I did not know about the bank letter, believing pristine entries showing my initial deposit nearly a year ago and an update on the day of applying

showing it untouched would suffice

They did not.

Fortunately I had time to go to the bank, resulting in a letter that would satisfy immi. I was actually in the bank well after closing time.

The implications of not getting the letter were that it would take 3 months to cancel the credit cards and thus their link.

Now for convenience my 800K is in a current account alone and untouched.

However it is linked to an ATM card.

Could this raise any problems please /

[ubonjoe]

No problem having an ATM card for the account.

[DisparateDan]

I've been searching for the picture of an office full of mainframes, stacks of filing cabinets and rows of diligent office workers, to offer to ubonjoe

as a more realistic avatar of what is going on there.

I contemplate just how much effort and fruitless journeys and aggravation his company has helped those of us (most) baffled by the immi regs.

Could not find one that adequately showed what I believe his operation is like.

Perhaps at least we can erect a statue in appreciation.

[Aforek]

A lot of people have reported problems if they withdrew and replaced money in their bank accounts inside of the two- or three-month limit. The money must sit UNTOUCHED for the two or three-month deposit period prior to the application for the extension. I realize that it would be tedious to read through previous threads but the information is there. Other people have been denied because they touched their money. May your future extensions go more smoothly!

It's not my experience in Hua hin immigration; I got my extension 2 weeks ago, and for 5 years I do the same thing ;

Three months before the date, I have some money in my saving account; three times , I withdraw the money I need to live , house, food etc,during 3 months and I come with my letter embassy, and they see that for 3 months I have much more than 800000 bahts ( I use the combo solution )

it's the first time I hear that the money must be UNTOUCHED ( it's not applied in Hua hin, but the three months period is applied with combo solution )