Smoke, Smog, Dust 2016-2017 Chiang Mai

[EnlightenedAtheist]

The idea is that you have the incentive of free gas, no burning/smoke, better compost/soil. How many people have a water tank to avoid being charged?

 

There is the power of education, although it might take a few years for the children to grow up and be more open-minded. Mind you, it would require an educational system that is open to change and diversity of opinion. Still, as they see their children cough and their relatives die, eventually some are going to connect the dots.

 

There is the power of the internet too. I know of many Thai who are not as "stupid" as you make them to be. Sure, the farmers might be more set in their ways. Isn't that true in any nation?True, the old leaders will also be reluctant to change the way. Still, change is inevitable. New generations will complain. When the leaders' children get sick, they will get it.

[canopy]

Yes it would be great if they could be environmentally responsible. It would be great if education made a difference. It would be great if they would change their ways for the benefit of others. But it's just a pipe dream. I wouldn't classify them as stupid, but rather uncaring. Here is an analogy to help you understand. As a group, the poor villagers that set these fires are smokers. Do you think it would work to gather them all together and explain they all should stop smoking this year because it would be more profitable for them? That would go over like a lead balloon. They could care less because they enjoy smoking just like they enjoy their fires. And think has education been the answer in stamping out teenage smoking in Thailand? Not at all. And so it is with fires.

 

And the wealthy/well educated are of no help. They have to tolerate the unpleasant pollution as it impacts everyone every year yet they choose to remain silent. Excellent solutions are everywhere, yet there is no change in the air, no hope for our generation. Things should only worsen as population and land usage increase. I am not trying to be negative, just telling the way it is.

 

[wolfmuc]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

When the leaders' children get sick, they will get it.

... and they will send their children to Davos, Switzerland.

[wolfmuc]

34 minutes ago, canopy said:

And the wealthy/well educated are of no help.

Absolutely correct.

They might buy some good air purifiers for their homes.

Then everything's alright.

[orang37]

The on-going characterizations of Thai "farmers," as if they were one homogeneous group, continues to numb the mind.  Perhaps, some folks here would care to read David Wyatt's essay on farmers and literacy in Nan (in "Siam in Mind"): yes. that's a long time ago these literate land-owners were checking books out of the Wat libraries. But, the point Wyatt makes is that assumptions about Thai farmers are often not grounded in history.

 

~o:37;

[LolaS]

unfortunately, thai rich ( high class, educated class ) is of no use or help for changing mentality... it is hard to say it but they are helping this system. ( for example, this stupid March and April ban, like <deleted>, why??? hot season no tourist let it burn there) so the farmers burn before ban.

but most things are not related to burning in Thailand.

also farmers are not so poor actually, even richer then some "high class"

[orang37]

30 minutes ago, LolaS said:

but most things are not related to burning in Thailand.

Including the above post.

 

~o:37;

[EnlightenedAtheist]

22 hours ago, wolfmuc said:

... and they will send their children to Davos, Switzerland.

True, the very rich will. But what about the borderline type, like the prof. in agronomy that lives next door and whose daughter lives in Chiang Mai. I have sent him by email the biogas idea. Time will tell what he says or does. I have sent the idea to a well-educated, English speaking Thai who has a degree in agronomy (age 60) and a restaurant owner who could certainly reduce his cost by using the scraps to make gas and he thought it was a good idea. He has just been married and is going to have kids soon. He is young (35). Time will tell what they do with this idea.

 

I suppose it is possible that Thai farmers are just as conservatives as the average English-speaker who is told that the English spelling system (who everyone agrees is a nightmare) should be reformed to shave 3 years off learning it and speed up learning in general, improve pedagogies (student-centered, individualized), and allow lower classes' children a fighting chance. But, few sees past their nose like the Thai farmer, perhaps. Farmers are usually conservative. I recommend the Jean de Florette/Manon des sources movie to anyone who has not seen it. 

[LolaS]

18 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

True, the very rich will. But what about the borderline type, like the prof. in agronomy that lives next door and whose daughter lives in Chiang Mai. I have sent him by email the biogas idea. Time will tell what he says or does. I have sent the idea to a well-educated, English speaking Thai who has a degree in agronomy (age 60) and a restaurant owner who could certainly reduce his cost by using the scraps to make gas and he thought it was a good idea. He has just been married and is going to have kids soon. He is young (35). Time will tell what they do with this idea.

 

I suppose it is possible that Thai farmers are just as conservatives as the average English-speaker who is told that the English spelling system (who everyone agrees is a nightmare) should be reformed to shave 3 years off learning it and speed up learning in general, improve pedagogies (student-centered, individualized), and allow lower classes' children a fighting chance. But, few sees past their nose like the Thai farmer, perhaps. Farmers are usually conservative. I recommend the Jean de Florette/Manon des sources movie to anyone who has not seen it. 

biogas production is very old, and highly used in Chiang Mai, in june is very big conference on biogas production and anaerobic digestion, in chiang mai, AdTech2018 organized by Griffith university, and kmutt.

It is silly to assume that Thai dont know or dont use biogas

[EnlightenedAtheist]

37 minutes ago, LolaS said:

biogas production is very old, and highly used in Chiang Mai, in june is very big conference on biogas production and anaerobic digestion, in chiang mai, AdTech2018 organized by Griffith university, and kmutt.

It is silly to assume that Thai dont know or dont use biogas

Oh! Really! Where is that massive gas production happening? Farmers are what bringing their residue there? Sure, SOME MIGHT know, but many farmers are still burning all the farm residue? The key is to have means and cheap enough means for farmers to use what SOME KNOW instead of smoking up the whole region! 

 

Here is the question. Does each farmer make gas or a local village organization pay farmers for the stuff they burn to make gas? I don't think it is happening since I see and breathe the smoke.

[canopy]

There are also university research projects and NGO's working with biogas in northern Thailand. There are just so many great alternatives to burning with many side benefits including the environment, health of the population, soil preservation, and prosperity. They keep experimenting and pouring money into these alternatives that end up not really going anywhere. The problem no one seems to address is the people doing the burning could care less about your great ideas. It's like educating a smoker to quit because you think once he learns he would be richer and healthier he would stop because it is in his best interest. It doesn't work folks. They just love their fires and feel it is their god given right to set things ablaze. Force is required.

 

[LolaS]

4 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Oh! Really! Where is that massive gas production happening? Farmers are what bringing their residue there? Sure, SOME MIGHT know, but many farmers are still burning all the farm residue? The key is to have means and cheap enough means for farmers to use what SOME KNOW instead of smoking up the whole region! 

 

Here is the question. Does each farmer make gas or a local village organization pay farmers for the stuff they burn to make gas? I don't think it is happening since I see and breathe the smoke.

take a look at conference speaker available on website AdTech2018, there are few huge companies based in Chiang Mai that buy waste from farmers, also registered farmers cannot burn legally, they would lose insurance and get the penalty. 

[LolaS]

4 hours ago, canopy said:

There are also university research projects and NGO's working with biogas in northern Thailand. There are just so many great alternatives to burning with many side benefits including the environment, health of the population, soil preservation, and prosperity. They keep experimenting and pouring money into these alternatives that end up not really going anywhere. The problem no one seems to address is the people doing the burning could care less about your great ideas. It's like educating a smoker to quit because you think once he learns he would be richer and healthier he would stop because it is in his best interest. It doesn't work folks. They just love their fires and feel it is their god given right to set things ablaze. Force is required.

 

I think there is no other way than to burn, slash and burn, how else to do it?

[scotbeve]

I think there is no other way than to burn, slash and burn, how else to do it?

I taught the village how to make compost. Many did it for a while and were in general, pleased with the outcome BUT after a few years, the "lazy factor" kicked in again and it was back to burning and chemical fertilizers.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[EnlightenedAtheist]

5 hours ago, scotbeve said:

I taught the village how to make compost. Many did it for a while and were in general, pleased with the outcome BUT after a few years, the "lazy factor" kicked in again and it was back to burning and chemical fertilizers.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Interesting! Must be the hot climate. Wait! It probablty is.

 

Do you think the biogas contraption that I showed (modified to suit the Thai market in whatever ways it can) could simplify the process enough to make it appealing (with the free gas and the free compost)? True! Gas bottles last forever in my experience and they are dirt cheap at 400 B. True! Composting is done by burning. Sort of. How about a governmental program in schools to evaluate 15 anti-pollution video ads by parents and children as a soft manner to educate them on the consequences of their action! Surely, they are not going to continue burning their fields if they know that they are causing harm to their children AND them, as the videos would persuade incontrovertibly. It has to be done smartly. This is one of the smart ways that was done in some areas where smoking use was generalized and in 30 years it has been  virtually "eradicated". Big changes like these don't happen overnight, but demand clever persuasion techniques and incentives, along with peer pressure and losing face pressures. Children will remind their parents everyday that they are stupid and uncaring. Your thoughts?

 

 

[XGM]

33 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Big changes like these don't happen overnight, but demand clever persuasion techniques and incentives

I generally agree with you, change is possible, however for a long process to be completed it has to start first, and things haven't even started to move to that direction in Thailand. So, 30 years from now, perhaps.

[scotbeve]

On 2/26/2018 at 9:47 PM, XGM said:

I generally agree with you, change is possible, however for a long process to be completed it has to start first, and things haven't even started to move to that direction in Thailand. So, 30 years from now, perhaps.

Agreed. Let's put anotherspanner in the works and talk about the chemical salespeople that say(and I've actually heard this said), "With these products, we can enhance the burnt ash to double the effect of your output" ..... <deleted>Sakes!

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk
 

[scotbeve]

Interesting! Must be the hot climate. Wait! It probablty is.
 
Do you think the biogas contraption that I showed (modified to suit the Thai market in whatever ways it can) could simplify the process enough to make it appealing (with the free gas and the free compost)? True! Gas bottles last forever in my experience and they are dirt cheap at 400 B. True! Composting is done by burning. Sort of. How about a governmental program in schools to evaluate 15 anti-pollution video ads by parents and children as a soft manner to educate them on the consequences of their action! Surely, they are not going to continue burning their fields if they know that they are causing harm to their children AND them, as the videos would persuade incontrovertibly. It has to be done smartly. This is one of the smart ways that was done in some areas where smoking use was generalized and in 30 years it has been  virtually "eradicated". Big changes like these don't happen overnight, but demand clever persuasion techniques and incentives, along with peer pressure and losing face pressures. Children will remind their parents everyday that they are stupid and uncaring. Your thoughts?
 
 

We had a small pig farm and had the Agri people come in and build an underground Biogas collector. The volume was approx 2 tons and worked well. The pig manure was (of course) used as fertilizer. The cost was around 20K baht.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

[LolaS]

https://app.ubidots.com/ubi/public/getdashboard/page/gAfjzNIxwBZ0AsYwALovqce9KtA#/

 

 

real time tracking of pollution in CMU

[CheGuava]

2 hours ago, LolaS said:

https://app.ubidots.com/ubi/public/getdashboard/page/gAfjzNIxwBZ0AsYwALovqce9KtA#/

 

real time tracking of pollution in CMU

 

 

Values look really low, I think something is off with that one.  The average for the day shows around 25 ug/m3, that's mid-yellow on the US EPA AQI scale, around 80 US AQI.   All other stations today show about 108-147 US AQI. 

[scotbeve]

https://app.ubidots.com/ubi/public/getdashboard/page/gAfjzNIxwBZ0AsYwALovqce9KtA#/
 
 
real time tracking of pollution in CMU

Looks far too low compared with others.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[EnlightenedAtheist]

13 hours ago, scotbeve said:

We had a small pig farm and had the Agri people come in and build an underground Biogas collector. The volume was approx 2 tons and worked well. The pig manure was (of course) used as fertilizer. The cost was around 20K baht.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk
 

Do you think that mass production of such a contraption should not reduce significantly its price? Add improvements to make it cheaper and easier. Maybe add a robot or a drone to do the collecting too ! In fairness, it is hot and it is hilly sometimes. Do Thai farmers and big agro businesses use Burmese like construction companies use Burmese too?

[balo]

You should all evacuate CM and head south to the coast .  Think about your health, you only live once. 

 

 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

3 hours ago, balo said:

You should all evacuate CM and head south to the coast .  Think about your health, you only live once. 

 

How about you..? So far in February Chiang Mai has remained better than been about the same as Bangkok.  (And Pattaya wasn't great either.)

 

[LolaS]

21 hours ago, scotbeve said:

Looks far too low compared with others.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

there are no others station in CMU

[LolaS]

On 2/27/2018 at 2:14 PM, CheGuava said:

 

 

Values look really low, I think something is off with that one.  The average for the day shows around 25 ug/m3, that's mid-yellow on the US EPA AQI scale, around 80 US AQI.   All other stations today show about 108-147 US AQI. 

Yes, that is CMU, it is abbreviation for Chiang Mai University, location near Angew lake, or wat umong

[LolaS]

On 2/27/2018 at 2:14 PM, CheGuava said:

 

 

Values look really low, I think something is off with that one.  The average for the day shows around 25 ug/m3, that's mid-yellow on the US EPA AQI scale, around 80 US AQI.   All other stations today show about 108-147 US AQI. 

Yes, that is CMU, it is abbreviation for Chiang Mai University, location near Angew lake, or wat umo

[LolaS]

Quote

CMU Air Alert ดูข้อมูล real-time วันนี้ฝุ่นน้อยกว่าเมื่อวานครับ ดูข้อมูลปััจจุบันคลิก ... https://app.ubidots.com/…/…/page/gAfjzNIxwBZ0AsYwALovqce9KtA 
หมายเหตุ: เนื่องจากมีมติสภา มช. เมื่อสัปดาห์ที่แล้ว ให้ทำแอป CMU Air Alert ซึ่งผมได้รับข่าวแจ้งจากหัวหน้าศูนย์วิจัยวัสดุฯและหัวหน้าภาควิชาฟิสิกส์ฯ ผ่านลงมา ผมเลยอาสาทำให้ฟรีเป็นเวอร์ชันแบบแจ้งเตือนกลุ่มไลน์ พร้อมกับแสดงกราฟและตัวเลขในเว็บแบบ real-time ครับ http://line.me/R/ti/g/xXN9f4LVdi (เข้าร่วมกลุ่มไลน์ CMU Air Alert ให้ copy ลิงค์นี้ส่งให้เพื่อนในไลน์ก่อน แล้วคลิกลิ้งค์นี้ในไลน์ บนหน้าจอโทรศัพท์มือถือ)

 

They update for all 3 campuses of CMU, meahia, suandok and main campus

the link to line groups is inside

 

[stament]

anyone recommend any places to get masks? guessing there are differing levels of quality.

 

our school has sent a letter to parents requesting they get masks.

[LolaS]

I believe science and in situ measurement, I don't trust satellite approximation. Aqi website that people like to share here is not a credible source of information and is not based on concrete data.

 

I don't like your fear mongering if you think that Chiang Mai University is fake institution, I would like to see evidence for your false accusations.