UK Residents in Thailand - The harsh truth about the NHS service

Kevbo · December 18, 2015

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

Kevbo · December 18, 2015

Yes, I think, and hope you are right....

blazes · December 18, 2015

It has been like that in Canada for as long as I can remember. Even if you worked there all your life and then go back for a job and are paying taxes right away you can't get Health Insurance back until after 90 days on arrival. So you have to carry travel insurance or risk getting sick without it.

That is unless of course you are a Libyan or from Syria as then you get free Health Insurance right away, free English Lessons, and of course you don't have to work for at least a year as the government will take good care of you if you don't. Seems like the nicest dressed kids in the school these days are immigrants.

So, you're Canadian? Where are you or your ancestors from? Did you/they go to Canada to escape war or in any way in fear of their life? Or did they just want a better life?
It seems that neither of these reasons are acceptable now!

It's a good bet that Mizztraveller did not, once s/he got to Canada, decide to agitate for the establishment of Sharia Law in her community.

blazes · December 18, 2015

Does anyone know if a Thai spouse can register an expat husband into the Thai medical system? If so, any restrictions regarding age or previous conditions?

jacky54 · December 18, 2015

Of course, he just has to pay the same as a lot of Thais do. You can go to a govt hospital, some of them look as good as any private hospital, in Bkk anyway.

Joey J · December 18, 2015

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

Get a grip man, UKIP want to privatise the NHS - even UK residents will have to pay
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaked-documents-show-ukip-leaders-approve-nhs-privatisation-once-it-becomes-more-acceptable-to-the-9993050.html

Joey J · December 18, 2015

Ukip do not want to privatise the nhs.read the manifesto instead of spreading crap.

Jip99 · December 18, 2015

Covered a million times if you keep a uk address Wetherby or not you pay tax or national insurance you will get free treatment I know I have done this fairly recently. All this scare mungering

Why bring Wetherby into it, why not Tadcaster as well?

Err cos I lived there Mr gramer police man

No need to apologise for your error.

The humour obviously by-passed you as well.

Joey J · December 18, 2015

Typical left wing scum, always denyiers of truth.

Konini · December 18, 2015

What a load of old rubbish!!

Nothing more to say, it's just scaremongering.

Unfortunately, the government have quietly introduced these new laws in April this year. Have a look at this government information site There is a get out clause though (link at the bottom of post).

The Home Office accessing NHS database to track down illegal immigrants Relevant article from the Guardian (proves it's still manual system and not automated).

Interesting article from the Telegraph re changes to the old laws.

This is the first time I've looked at it and the changes are quite dramatic. We aren't entitled to anything in UK, we left almost 30 years ago, so I don't have a horse in this race, but we have exactly the same thing in Australia except the returned expats - in Australia we have to prove that we are back in the country to stay with bank statements, utilities bill, copy of lease etc, but in UK there is conflicting information, one saying if you return permanently you are entitled to treatment immediately and another saying changed to not being able to get treatment for 12 months (apart from the listed exceptions, I can't find the link but I did read 3 months and 6 months) but the slowly but surely linking of databases between different government departments is frightening.

One of the documents in this link says your name, address, date of birth, NI number and passport number if available will be entered into the NHS database which can be (not 'is') cross checked to the Home Office database (immigration) database. I suspect it is being done manually at the moment, and I would say that only if someone suspects that you live overseas are you going to be checked. As long as people keep their heads down they should be able to access the NHS, but the databases in various government departments are designed to link to a central point. The automatic cross checking will be implemented sooner or later, it may be a month, may be a year, more likely will be within 5 years but the cross checking will be automated and when it is, as soon as your name/address/date of birth NI number is entered into the GP's or hospital computer your residency status will be there for them to see before you get any treatment.

Statutory Instrument here - this is the law itself.

For the time being, unless you attract attention to yourself you should be OK, but my estimate is about 3 years until you'll be out of luck.

A couple of snippets from linked documents for the lazy amongst us

Changes to NHS charging regulations will also affect former UK residents.

Overseas visitors who need healthcare while in England will soon be charged differently for using the NHS as part of efforts to recoup £500 million a year by 2017 to 2018.

From April, the way the NHS charges these visitors is being changed so that it does not lose out on income from migrants, visitors and former residents of the UK who have left, who should all pay for their care while in the country.

Within the UK, free NHS treatment is provided on the basis of someone being ‘ordinarily resident’. It is not dependent upon nationality, payment of UK taxes, national insurance contributions, being registered with a GP, having an NHS number or owning property in the UK.

-------------------------------------

Charging category F: Chargeable non-EEA patient

13.34 This charging category therefore includes patients who are ordinarily resident in a non-EEA country (which could include UK or EEA passport holders as well as non-EEA citizens) or patients who are in the UK on an irregular basis...

But the good news is here is your get out clause

Returning to the UK to settle

Citizens who return to the UK on a settled basis will be classed as ordinarily resident, and will be eligible for free NHS care immediately.

Konini · December 18, 2015

Covered a million times if you keep a uk address Wetherby or not you pay tax or national insurance you will get free treatment I know I have done this fairly recently. All this scare mungering

Why bring Wetherby into it, why not Tadcaster as well?

Err cos I lived there Mr gramer police man

I got stranded there once hitch hiking home (the very long way from Scarborough).

fleur3 · December 18, 2015

if you "sign out" as a resident of a country it doesn't matter how long you have worked or lived there, that you have paid taxes etc all that time : it is over. You are no longer a resident but a visitor. Be aware of that. A very basic principle in most countries in the world!

emilymat · December 18, 2015

What you perhaps missed is that she was charged at the rate of 150% of NHS costs, as would any other person in her position be. So whereas immigrants can pay 200 Pounds for government insurance against these costs, indeed they are required to buy such a policy, UK expats are not allowed similar and even worse are seen as a resource to profit from.

It is the scandal of the century and totally outrageous.

It is all part of their race replacement agenda. Call it a conspiracy theory if you will, but more evidence appears almost every day.

That's one of the worst conspiracy theories I've ever heard. It has nothing to do with race replacement, it's all about saving money - the NHS, much as we all love it and the services it provides, is not financially sustainable and will all fall in a heap sooner or later. The money pot is only paying the bills because the governments are borrowing more and more - Labour and Tories are guilty.

The NHS was a great idea, 'from the cradle to the grave', and in a utopian society it would be perfect, but the UK isn't perfect and is in so much debt the next generation and the one after that and the one after that will be paying for what we have today. Until the spending stops, future generations will pay for everything the NHS is doing right now. I'm a solid socialist, but can see how the system in the UK (both health related and welfare benefits) are unaffordable, unsustainable and will eventually collapse; probably not within our lifetime, but the kids in primary school today aren't going to have the same benefits that are available today, and will see them working until they are 70 and over and will be paying dearly for the excesses of consecutive governments funding the promises they made before elections to bribe the population into voting for them.

Regardless of how unfair they are, particularly for anyone who is paying taxes on their pensions (and I don't know if this is automatic or how many expats would pay tax), the law says that people who are not resident in UK are not eligible for NHS treatment with a list of exceptions; accident and emergency, being sectioned, being 'tortured, raped or the victim of FGM or trafficking) or resident in a country with a reciprocal agreement such as Australia and NZ and a few others. The laws are pretty much the same in Australia, I think it's 6 months out of the country to lose Medicare.

Fair or not, that's the law and anyone who breaks the law must accept the fact that they are cheating the system. If you want the law to change, you've got to get active in politics.

(I studied politics in UK a lifetime ago, and whatever you do won't make any difference. Trust me.)

I cannot argue with your analysis. The introduction of Private Finance Initiative at the turn of the century is having a terrible effect on the finances of the NHS. It seemed such a good idea at the time - let the private sector build the new shiny hospital and then lease it back to the government for 25-50 years at huge annual cost. I was in politics at the time - in a minor way - and I remember the arguments. "The public don't care where the money comes from, as long as they have a brand new hospital on the doorstep". That's quite understandable and a vote winner, but sadly the chickens have come home to roost. Obviously it also enabled government to avoid having to finance major capital projects in the NHS from current budgets.

Also, I was often informed that the inflationary costs of NHS items was much more than the normal inflation amounts. Clearly the drug companies, medical equipment suppliers and others climbed on this mythical bandwagon.

I pay UK income tax,as you touched on it in your post. So, for tax purposes it's not whether you are resident or not, whereas for NHS treatment, it's not if you are a citizen (or should I say subject) of the UK, but if you are a resident. Now I know the rules differ from one government department to another, but it's this underlying apparent unfairness that rankles many of us.

In the case taken to the European Court of Human Rights some years ago about pensions, I remember the government barrister making two observations that really stuck in my throat.

He referred to ex-pats as "those who choose to absent themselves from the country and make no contribution to its economy" (what's my income tax doing) and..............

"There is a separate argument for the UK pension, which after all is a social security benefit, not to be paid at all to those absentees."

So, that sums up the attitude in a nutshell.!!

Curiously I was in the UK army for 9 years. I think I would qualify for free NHS treatment if I had stayed longer and was recieving a pension from the forces. (I may be wrong on this and perhaps you could correct me).

All in all, no wonder we are getting really cheesed off the way we are being treated. But what you post is factually correct, even though I went to my doctor in the UK last June with a bad infection and was treated without question.

I'm just not going to get screwed up about this any longer, as it will make me ill

emilymat · December 18, 2015

i cannot understand the logic of this,i paid uk taxes for 50 years and still do on my 4 pensions accrued during my time in the uk, what is the difference of me living in thailand or in the uk, if i was living in the uk, nothing at all would be any different as far as i am aware, in fact you can say i have saved then money as i have gone to the local hospital a few times and paid my way here in Bangkok

The only answer I can give you is we are all victims of the 'health tourism' from some years ago. Non UK citizens visiting the UK specifically to obtain NHS treatment and governments clamping down on this (vote winner certainly). But, as governments do, they then start to look around at others they can exclude and this year they slipped it through about ex pats. Parliament was not concerned about this item of small print, there's no votes to be lost, as opposed to the millions of votes regarding tax credits. There are some votes to be lost but only a few if you have postal voting and can be bothered to use a proxy, because getting the ballot paper to Thailand and back to the UK in time is impossible, as many learned earlier this year.

Up until recently, I was always content to know that the regulations stated that if you had resided in the UK for 10 continuous years then NHS services were available. That has now been withdrawn.

billd766 · December 18, 2015

A change made just in April this year, but that's what you get for electing a Conservative government. I'm inclined to think that people get what they deserve when voting for that lot.

I don't have to worry, I've got enough to supply my health care needs, so screw people who haven't : it's the Tory way!

Actually over 4,000,000 in the UK did NOT vote Tory but voted UKIP. I voted for UKIP from Thailand using a proxy voter quite legally but sadly the electoral system in the UK only gave the UKIP one parliamentary seat.

IMHO I think that at the next general election, The Labour party if they are still under Jeremy Corbyn will not win, the Tories who will not be under Big Dave Cameron will lose a lot of seats, the Lib/Dems under Tim Fallon (I had to look who it was on Wikipedia) shot their bolt last time probably don't stand much chance either. The SNP under Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond probably won't do that much out of Scotland.

To me that leaves Nigel Farage with UKIP, the Green Party under Natalie Bennett and a hodgepodge of other parties with no clear ideas or directions to fight the Tories.

For myself I truly believe that if UKIP don't win they will be a very strong opposition party to the winners.

Then perhaps things may start to get better for us expats and for the UK as a whole.

Get a grip man, UKIP want to privatise the NHS - even UK residents will have to pay

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaked-documents-show-ukip-leaders-approve-nhs-privatisation-once-it-becomes-more-acceptable-to-the-9993050.html

Where did you get that information from?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/leaked-documents-show-ukip-leaders-approve-nhs-privatisation-once-it-becomes-more-acceptable-to-the-9993050.html

That was dated 15th January 2015. Do you have any other references to it?

Have you actually read the UKIP 2015 manifesto? I have read it and I couldn't see anywhere that UKIP are going to dismantle the NHS. If you can see it any where please point it out to me and I will apologise. Now I have done a little research and posted a link and the relevant pages but all you have done is port something unsubstantiated with no links or references.

I would rather believe somethi ng that I can refer back to than some flight of fancy from you with no information to back it up.

I am sorry but I tried to attach the whole thing but I cannot.

Here is a link to it and page 14 is about the NHS.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/1103/attachments/original/1429295050/UKIPManifesto2015.pdf?1429295050

Our ageing population; the dramatic increase in the numbers of people suffering chronic,

long-term conditions; uncontrolled immigration, encouraged by Labour and continued

under the Tories: any one of these pressures might have been enough to bring the NHS

close to breaking point. Combine these with EU directives that have prevented essential

training and endless political interference and it is not difficult to understand why the NHS

is in serious trouble.

Both Labour and the Tories have utterly failed our NHS by treating it

as a political football instead of a cherished institution.

Patients are suffering because of poor policy, made all too often purely for reasons of

political expediency. A GP appointment can no longer be guaranteed within any reasonable

time frame. Coalition cuts to social care budgets are forcing elderly people to stay in

hospital for longer than they should because there is no after-care available for them.

Top-down targets forced on Accident and Emergency departments are not realistic; even

some of the best hospitals cannot cope.

Despite a chronic shortage of doctors, nurses and midwives, David Cameron’s government

wasted billions on a top-down reorganisation he promised would not happen. Labour,

which squandered money on financing capital projects at credit card rates through

private finance initiatives and giving service contracts worth billions of pounds to private

companies when they were in power, are now promising to repeal the Health and Social

Care Act, meaning yet more billions will be wasted re-organising the NHS all over again.

Both parties administered a disastrous £12 billion NHS IT project which ultimately failed.

UKIP will take better care of taxpayers’ money. We will put an additional

£3 billion a year into the NHS in England by the end of the parliament and

make sure the money is spent on frontline patient care. We will provide the

common sense, the money, the staff, the social care funding and the vital

improvements to emergency medicine that the NHS needs.

We will fund: -

8,000 MORE GP

s

We will train and employ GPs to meet this current shortfall and waive

university tuition fees for new medical students who work in Britain for

five years after qualifying.

To encourage those who have left the profession to get back into the

surgery, we will fund the cost of re-training for GPs who wish to return

to practice.

To cut GP waiting times and allow GPs to spend more time actually

seeing patients, UKIP will reduce the burden of data collection,

target chasing, revalidation and appraisal work that interferes with

the care GPs can give to patients.

20,000 MORE NURSES AND 3,000 MORE MIDWIVES

Not only will UKIP find the training of nurses and midwives,

we will also fund return to practice training for those who

have taken career breaks. Because we believe nursing starts

and ends on the ward, we will bring back the State Enrolled

Nurse, and put care and compassion back at the heart of

nursing.

Britain’s best-loved institution is in crisis. The founding of the NHS in

1948 was a victory for the people but, sixty years on, it is the NHS itself

that needs emergency care and nursing back to health.

BELIEVE

in

BRITAIN

EMERGENCY MEDICINE

There is a shortage of emergency medicine consultants in our Accident and Emergency

departments, just 1200 when the profession needs closer to 2000. The problem stems not

so much from a deficiency in training capacity, but from poor retention once registrars or

consultants have qualified. 500 UK-trained emergency medicine consultants are currently

working in Australia, New Zealand and Canada alone, which illustrates the attrition rate.

Bodies representing this field of medicine believe the solution lies in improving working

conditions, such as the extent of weekend cover, unsocial hours, extended shifts and leave

patterns. Funding the additional consultants is not in itself a problem, as the cost of locums

to cover the current shortage far exceeds that of increasing employed staff and this is what

we will do.

GP

s

FOR A&E

s

Patients who cannot get a GP appointment frequently turn up in A&E instead, putting

additional pressure on already over-stretched resources. We will initiate pilot programmes

in English hospitals to put GPs on duty in A&E departments seven days a week. If these

pilots succeed in easing the burden on A&E staff by freeing them up to treat seriously ill

patients more successfully, we will roll the programme out across the country, deploying

approximately 1,000 of the 8,000 additional GPs we are committed to funding.

IMPROVED MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Patients with mental health problems frequently feel ignored and let down. UKIP takes a ‘whole

person’ approach to health and that means giving mental health parity with physical health. We

will introduce practical policies to improve delivery of mental health services, including: -

•

Directing patients diagnosed with a debilitating long-term condition or terminal

illnesses to mental health professionals when appropriate

•

Recognising there is often a link between addiction and mental illness and offering

appropriate treatment where this is the case

•

Offering direct access to specialist mental health treatment for pregnant women and

mothers of children under 12 months of age

•

Fighting the stigma around mental illness and supporting those seeking to get back

into work.

Patients experiencing distress or exhibiting mental ill-health issues when admitted to

hospital should have both their physical health and mental wellbeing assessed. This must

not just be an optional extra: we will end the postcode lottery for psychiatric liaison services

in acute hospitals and A&E departments.

To fund these initiatives, we will increase mental health funding by £170 million

annually, phasing this in through the first two years of the next parliament.

DEMENTIA TREATMENT AND RESEARCH

This debilitating and distressing condition is the leading cause of death among women over

the age of 55 and the fifth biggest killer of men.

We will be investing a full extra £130 million a year into researching and treating dementia

by 2017.

UKIP will put the ‘national’ back into our national health service

We need to get tough on so-called ‘health-tourism.’ Every year the NHS spends up to

£2 billion of UK taxpayers’ money treating those ineligible for free care. This bill includes

foreign nationals who come to Britain to deliberately seek NHS services at no cost to

themselves; those who live here but who do not qualify for free care; treatment for illegal

immigrants and those who overstay their visas.

The NHS is the National Health Service, not the International Health Service.

UKIP will insist migrants and visitors who come to Britain have approved medical insurance.

Only those who have the permanent right to remain in Britain and who have paid UK taxes

for at least five years will be granted an NHS number and be eligible for the full services

offered by the NHS. Urgent medical treatment will still be given to those who need it, but

non-urgent treatment will be charged for.

UKIP is the only party that is truly willing to face up to the harsh reality of how health

tourism and treating those ineligible is sapping the NHS of funds. The other parties have

their heads stuck well and truly in the sand.

UKIP 2015 MANIFESTO

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