Differing standards by Immigration?

[Caspersfriend]

Quite possibly I do not understand the way in which the RTP Immigration branch deal with immigration - maybe those who are better acquainted would be willing to enlighten me :

Whenever or wherever somebody arrives in Thailand they must pass through Immigration Control. The I/O's manning the desks do not appear to be high ranking officers and yet they are empowered to decide who comes in and who does not. They do not then pass the passports of those they approve to a senior officer for double-checking and we could easily imagine the mayhem that would ensue if this were the case.

Deciding who enters the country would appear to be a far more significant decision than those who stay here; much better equipped to weed out the undesirables/those with dodgy passports/those who are black-listed/those who are on the wanted list of another country. These I/O's are empowered and their decision is final. If the person denied is unhappy with the outcome then, and only then, is a higher authority brought into the process.

I am referring mostly to Chiang Mai area; as that is my experience: With the greatest respect to those who process visa extensions, the fact that someone's application for extension doesn't have the right colour background on the photo, or is 2000 Baht short on the money in the bank during the seasoning period [yes this happened to a good friend due to ever-fluctuating exchange rates] is insignificant if the safety of the country is the real motive. And yet the decisions of the I/O's who process applications apparently must be double-checked by a senior officer.

[Kopitiam]

Like anywhere else, you do not find high ranking I/Os manning Immigration booths. So, why should Thailand be any different.

[KhunBENQ]

Previous poster was faster.

Basically nothing to add.

Some xx million visitors/border checks per year.

How could you staff them with high ranks?

If the person denied is unhappy with the outcome then, and only then, is a higher authority brought into the process.

So what is the problem?

Do you have a story where a decline by a US immi officer was corrected by his superior?

A naturalized German with Arab name? -> go home.

Edited December 22, 2015 by KhunBENQ

[ubonjoe]

A denial of entry to the country cannot be done by the officer at the desk. It has to be signed off on by an officer authorized to do it. Their are procedures that have to be followed and that includes the person being denied entry signing a form. An appeal can also be made for the denial that has to be resolved within 7 days (that is 7 days in detention) for a fee of 1900 baht.

Not sure about the photo problem. I have used some with a blue background and others that were white or off white.

I cannot see how a exchange rate fluctuation could effect an application using the money in the bank option. The 800k or 400k baht balance would remain at the same amount. It could be a problem if the combination method was used and the local immigration office insisted on the 3 month seasoning.

The officer might say no at the desk but if you feel he is wrong you always have the right to ask for a supervisor to confirm it.

[mommysboy]

I'm not sure what the point is or the real question. The OP is a bit nebulous. Answering only in vague terms I think it fair to say that visa issues can be riddled with inconsistencies. There appears to be quite a bit of leeway in the way IO's can act depending on the visa type being used. Whether this can be called double standards is open to question. I've come to the conclusion it's just the way it is, much like anything in Thailand.

[Suradit69]

With the greatest respect to those who process visa extensions, the fact that someone's application for extension doesn't have the right colour background on the photo, or is 2000 Baht short on the money in the bank during the seasoning period [yes this happened to a good friend due to ever-fluctuating exchange rates]

Ever try applying for a new passport from your own country if the photo you supply doesn't comply EXACTLY with their stated requirements? I seriously doubt Thai immigrations would deny an application for an extension if the photo was improper. They'd send you out to get a new one and then return.

The money you have in a Thai bank for three months doesn't fluctuate because of exchange rates. If you mean the combination of money in the bank plus income affidavit don't meet the total required, most sensible people would plan on that possibility. The Baht 800,000 for a retirement extension is the minimum needed. Is the I/O officer being uncompromising because someone is Baht 2000 short or is the person making the application extraordinarily careless?

Many currency exchange rates have become more favorable to applicants this year. If your home currency has been sinking against the baht, that's hardly Thai immigrations fault and something you could easily have foreseen.

[mogo51]

Like anywhere else, you do not find high ranking I/Os manning Immigration booths. So, why should Thailand be any different.

Incorrect, if there is a problem that an Immigration Officer finds in Australia, he delivers the facts to a superior officer for decision.

[novo58]

@mongo51........but the superior officer is NOT Manning a desk on the front line . Whilst it has never happened to me ..................I feel sure that if you disagree with a decision by a front line officer in Thailand--- you can ask to speak to a senior officer .

[Caspersfriend]

A denial of entry to the country cannot be done by the officer at the desk. It has to be signed off on by an officer authorized to do it. Their are procedures that have to be followed and that includes the person being denied entry signing a form. An appeal can also be made for the denial that has to be resolved within 7 days (that is 7 days in detention) for a fee of 1900 baht.

Not sure about the photo problem. I have used some with a blue background and others that were white or off white.

I cannot see how a exchange rate fluctuation could effect an application using the money in the bank option. The 800k or 400k baht balance would remain at the same amount. It could be a problem if the combination method was used and the local immigration office insisted on the 3 month seasoning.

The officer might say no at the desk but if you feel he is wrong you always have the right to ask for a supervisor to confirm it.

I agree that an officer at border control cannot deny entry without authorisation from a senior officer; they can however sanction entry for all others. The salient point being that an officer in a local office has to refer every single application for a visa extension to a senior officer; not just those they consider to be problematic.

The "photo problem" may be merely a Chiang Mai issue http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/861438-immigration-promenada-one-stop-service-v2/

Exchange rate fluctuations can and do cause problems for some who are unable or unwilling to leave more than is required sitting in the bank. As money in an FCD account is also eligible exchange rates come into play. The friend I mentioned was sailing close to the wind but the day before and a few days after he would have met the required amount, and it was unnecessary [in my opinion] to be pedantic on such a trivial variance when the required amount was met throughout the seasoning period [apart from a couple of days] and he had conformed in all other aspects. Yes I know - rules are rules.

Are you aware of any case where an applicant for a visa extension has had a denial overturned by a senior officer? With I/O's appearing to have considerable leeway on their personal interpretation of the rules I would be pleased to hear that this might happen occasionally.

[Caspersfriend]

Like anywhere else, you do not find high ranking I/Os manning Immigration booths. So, why should Thailand be any different.

Nor do you find them manning the desk in your local office when you attend for a visa extension. The point being that those at border control do not need to refer every single application to a senior officer for verification - for visa extensions they do; at least at the Chiang Mai office. Increasingly it is appearing that Chaing Mai is an exception to the general rule.

[Caspersfriend]

With the greatest respect to those who process visa extensions, the fact that someone's application for extension doesn't have the right colour background on the photo, or is 2000 Baht short on the money in the bank during the seasoning period [yes this happened to a good friend due to ever-fluctuating exchange rates]

Ever try applying for a new passport from your own country if the photo you supply doesn't comply EXACTLY with their stated requirements? I seriously doubt Thai immigrations would deny an application for an extension if the photo was improper. They'd send you out to get a new one and then return.

The money you have in a Thai bank for three months doesn't fluctuate because of exchange rates. If you mean the combination of money in the bank plus income affidavit don't meet the total required, most sensible people would plan on that possibility. The Baht 800,000 for a retirement extension is the minimum needed. Is the I/O officer being uncompromising because someone is Baht 2000 short or is the person making the application extraordinarily careless?

Many currency exchange rates have become more favorable to applicants this year. If your home currency has been sinking against the baht, that's hardly Thai immigrations fault and something you could easily have foreseen.

Conforming "EXACTLY with their stated requirements" should not be a problem for anyone who has been here [or anywhere] for a while - 15 years in his case. A TM47 form that shows a specific size of photo [with outline] and no further specification, but an officer who states that they now want a different size shot against a blue background and cannot process the application without it is what I classify as pedantic. Nowhere is this new requirement displayed; this may not apply to all regional offices; yet.

Many of those "sensible" people have some of those funds in an FCD account and do not wish any more than is necessary to be stagnating with negligible interest accruing. This friend [it is a friend not me] has been told on previous occasions as I have, that the seasoned money has to meet the requirement on the first and last day of the seasoning period but they understand that fluctuations may occur between those dates and it's not a problem; this time it was. When I completed my last extension the I/O noticed that an amount was debited from my Thai FCD account but the Thai Baht equivalent did not appear in my other account for three days. Even though the combined amount was still well in excess of the required amount and the three days was an extended Thai bank holiday weekend my application was denied until I went to the bank and obtained a print out showing that the transfer was in fact immediate. All other paperwork 100%, very respectful and well dressed - even had a haircut that very morning but that's just a coincidence.

[louse1953]

Like anywhere else, you do not find high ranking I/Os manning Immigration booths. So, why should Thailand be any different.

Incorrect, if there is a problem that an Immigration Officer finds in Australia, he delivers the facts to a superior officer for decision.

Who is not in the booth holding his hand.

[MobileContent]

Like anywhere else, you do not find high ranking I/Os manning Immigration booths. So, why should Thailand be any different.

Incorrect, if there is a problem that an Immigration Officer finds in Australia, he delivers the facts to a superior officer for decision.

They do in Thailand always the same. If the IO rejects you he passes you on to a supervisor who will make the decision.

[MobileContent]

Now the complaining starts already about some FCD and they want to blame it on the immigration because the minimum amount has not been met. The next time just try to bank in 900k and I guarantee no hair cut will be required.

[rethaier]

Fluctuating exchange rates have no effect on deposits in a Thai bank.

[Liquorice]

OP your talking about 2 different scenarios.

'Entry' and 'Extension of stay'

The requirements for obtaining a Visa to enter Thailand are the responsibility of the Thai Embassy/Consulate in the Country they are obtained.

There are also 'Visas on entry' and 'Visa exempt' visitors.

The IO's at airports and borders have no means to check criminal records and other than refusing entry due to suspicion of working illegally, it would be detrimental to the Tourist industry to refuse on any other grounds, or indeed to require criminal record checks to be provided for every visitor.

Extensions at local Immigration offices are a different kettle of fish. There are internal requirements to be met including suitable finances and proof of address.

The IO's can request anything as proof to satisfy your suitability to remain in Thailand.

The required funding methods for extensions based on marriage or retirement are well documented in the Police Orders and the criteria and periods for meeting these requirements. If your friend failed to meet these requirements, then that is his own fault and not Immigrations.

Blaming the Bank or fluctuating currency rates is a lame excuse.

Appealing to even a higher ranking Officer isn't going to excuse his own ignorance to plan ahead to meet the requirements.

[TheAppletons]

Fluctuating exchange rates have no effect on deposits in a Thai bank.

I was thinking the same thing. If one has 800K THB in a Thai bank, one has 800K THB in a Thai bank no matter what the exchange rate is. Exchange rate fluctuation doesn't enter into the equation.

[ravip]

Reading the OP it sounds very strange - most probably written in frustration... and it has drawn some strange answers too.

>>> In which country do high ranking I/O's man the counters?

>>> Which country has a 'one size fits all' immigration policy?

Always, anywhere, the visitor has to put up with the whims and fancies of the I/O at the counter.

e.g.

Do you have a story where a decline by a US immi officer was corrected by his superior?

A naturalized German with Arab name? -> go home.

I've come to the conclusion it's just the way it is, much like anything in Thailand.

>>> ONLY in Thailand?

Incorrect, if there is a problem that an Immigration Officer finds in Australia, he delivers the facts to a superior officer for decision.

>>> Exactly what happens at Thailand too! Didn't you know that?

That's how the world is...

[duanebigsby]

I'm not sure what the point is or the real question. The OP is a bit nebulous. Answering only in vague terms I think it fair to say that visa issues can be riddled with inconsistencies. There appears to be quite a bit of leeway in the way IO's can act depending on the visa type being used. Whether this can be called double standards is open to question. I've come to the conclusion it's just the way it is, much like anything in Thailand.

I agree, but also much like immigration around the world.

I had friends refused entry to US from Canada simply because IO spotted a magazine in the car with a marijuana leaf on the cover.

IO's worldwide seem to have unlimited power.

[steve73]

Fluctuating exchange rates have no effect on deposits in a Thai bank.

I was thinking the same thing. If one has 800K THB in a Thai bank, one has 800K THB in a Thai bank no matter what the exchange rate is. Exchange rate fluctuation doesn't enter into the equation.

If you are holding the 800k THB as equivalent USD or GBP in a FCD (foreign currency deposit) account, then the THB value will change with exchange rates. If you deposited 800k equivalent when the GBP was at 55 that would be 14,545 GBP, but if the exchange rate drops to 54 you only have 785,454 THB equivalent.

[1FinickyOne]

If they had high ranking officials every step of the way, would you want to pay an extra fee for their salaries?

I have had a couple of mistakes that I made in the past over many many years here and always found immigration friendly and helpful in getting them resolved. I legitimately qualify for the visa I have and assume that is why I don't have any problems.

[Khun Robert]

Last year I applied for a new Passport in the Netherlands. My passport pictures were refused with the remark my face was to dark.

I tried to explain that after living 12 years in Thailand not only my face changed color.

I had to make new pictures and she approved them but she explained that face was still to dark and the picture could be denied by senior officer.

After all application finished I nicely asked how she deals when African people apply for passport.

She called security to escort me outside the building. I never had that problem in Thailand.

[elviajero]

Fluctuating exchange rates have no effect on deposits in a Thai bank.

I was thinking the same thing. If one has 800K THB in a Thai bank, one has 800K THB in a Thai bank no matter what the exchange rate is. Exchange rate fluctuation doesn't enter into the equation.

If you are holding the 800k THB as equivalent USD or GBP in a FCD (foreign currency deposit) account, then the THB value will change with exchange rates. If you deposited 800k equivalent when the GBP was at 55 that would be 14,545 GBP, but if the exchange rate drops to 54 you only have 785,454 THB equivalent.

Fluctuating exchange rates can affect people using the combination of income and cash in the bank method. The foreign income needs to be converted the Thai baht and if the rates move against the foreign currency the applicant needs more money in their Thai bank.

[Caspersfriend]

I confess to having posted this topic in a bit of a hurry: However, I am surprised as the main point I was making only to be apparent to some. Whilst accepting that some do not bother to read the OP in detail, nor any later responses, I see little point in continuing and have asked UbonJoe to lock the topic when convenient.

The fundamental point was that at border control, if in their opinion the passport appears to be in order, I/O's have the authority to allow entrants to the country without the need to refer to a high-ranking officer for verification; if there appears to be a problem they will then refer to a higher authority. Whereas I/O's [of apparently similar rank] at regional offices [as I understand it] have to refer every single case to a high-ranking officer for approval; in the case of marriage extensions approval can only be given in Bangkok.

[mgjackson69]

I would submit that if the OP's "friend" was operating so close to the wire monetarily that a currency fluctuation caused his balance to be 2000 THB under the required amount, som naam naa on him.

Edited December 23, 2015 by mgjackson69

[Caspersfriend]

I would submit that if the OP's "friend" was operating so close to the wire monetarily that a currency fluctuation caused his balance to be 2000 THB under the required amount, som naam naa on him.

He is one of many in Thailand who have being doing there best to support a Thai family, whilst not being rich by 'alien' standards. For ten years his pension has been sufficient to satisfy the extension requirement. This year, his native currency being dependant upon commodity prices, taking the income option for his extension due to marriage appeared at the start of the seasoning period to be sufficient but at the last minute did not work. Although he had substantial funds in Thai Baht [albeit not enough to meet the 400,000 requirement alone over the three months] you can't top up by combining as you can with a retirement extension; perhaps only Immigration know why this should be the case. Averaged over the three months his income was sufficient, but he was penalised because in the last few days forex fluctuations [combined with the exchange rate utilised by Immigration] his funds were marginally under on the day. He's a good guy, loving father and husband, and has an unblemished history of living in Thailand. He and his wife had to almost beg on their knees to get a reprieve and that shouldn't need to be the case for a shortfall of 2000 Baht - IMHO - simple as that.

Yes I know: It is what it is and either conform or ..........................................

[hawker9000]

The question about denials being referred to a senior while permits are not seems odd, and a bit petulant. The process is obviously one of management by exception, and that's perfectly reasonable for this scenario. If the front-line officer sees nothing questionable, what point is there to an escalation? OTOH, if someone is going to be denied entry, that seems worthy of a second, hopefully more experienced opinion. If your doctor pronounces you perfectly healthy after your annual, do you routinely request a second opinion? If he finds a tumor OTOH, are you not.more likely to want that 2nd opinion?

[ubonjoe]

I confess to having posted this topic in a bit of a hurry: However, I am surprised as the main point I was making only to be apparent to some. Whilst accepting that some do not bother to read the OP in detail, nor any later responses, I see little point in continuing and have asked UbonJoe to lock the topic when convenient.

The fundamental point was that at border control, if in their opinion the passport appears to be in order, I/O's have the authority to allow entrants to the country without the need to refer to a high-ranking officer for verification; if there appears to be a problem they will then refer to a higher authority. Whereas I/O's [of apparently similar rank] at regional offices [as I understand it] have to refer every single case to a high-ranking officer for approval; in the case of marriage extensions approval can only be given in Bangkok.

Now