EU exit could lead to break up of UK, says Lord Hague

[webfact]

EU exit could lead to break up of UK, says Lord Hague

LONDON: -- Leaving the EU could lead to the break up of the UK, former Foreign Secretary Lord Hague has warned.

He also said that any "Brexit" would weaken Europe at a time of political turbulence and volatility.

Writing in Wednesday's Daily Telegraph, Lord Hague makes clear he is unlikely to join former cabinet colleagues Liam Fox and Owen Patterson in calling for a "leave" vote at the EU referendum.

The prime minister has promised to hold an in/out vote before the end of 2017.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35165720

-- BBC 2015-12-23

[Grouse]

Well he'd better start educating the bumpkins who do not understand the benefits before it's too late!

[IMA_FARANG]

How wonderful.

Two good things at happening at the same time.

[BwindiBoy]

Well he'd better start educating the bumpkins who do not understand the benefits before it's too late!

When's the punch line??

[Cashboy]

"EU exit could lead to break up of UK, says Lord Hague"

GOOD !

"He also said that any "Brexit" would weaken Europe at a time of political turbulence and volatility."

Lets remember that most of the political turbulence and volatility was caused by these unelected and unaudited EC beuro-craps.

[BuaBS]

The propaganda starts again after Cameron didn't get what he wanted last week in Brussels.

Cameron never intended to leave the EU , but the bluff didn't work out. So it is back to manipulating the Brits to vote for staying in the EU.

Lets hope the UK breaks. The Scottish & Welch & Irish should have become independent centuries ago.

[Scott]

A post with an aberrant spelling of a name has been removed. The person's name is Lord Hague.

[MaeJoMTB]

Well he'd better start educating the bumpkins who do not understand the benefits before it's too late!

I don't understand the benefits? ........ feel free to tell me!

[emilymat]

I'm beginning to wish the Scots had won the independence vote last year. Why? Well since then all we have heard are threats about second referendums, if this or that does not please the SNP.

I mean, how does anyone outside Nicola Sturgeon etc actually know that if the UK votes to leave the EU, the Scottish vote within that referendum will be to remain in membership. I smell a trap here. SNP somehow join (or quietly) support the 'out' campaign in order to simply obtain a second independence referendum. Of course, that plan might backfire and the UK votes to stay in and a majority of Scots vote to leave!!

I'm currently an undecided and hope there is a grown up and proper debate about the issue.

By the way. Am I correct in assuming that it would be the Westminster Parliament which would make a decision on whether or not a second referendum on Scottish independence takes place?.

[phitsanulokjohn]

If a major player such as the UK exits,never mind the break up of the UK,it could well snowball and signal the beginning of the end of the EU as we now know it.I'm sure however the British government are well aware of this,and they've got that tucked up their sleeve too....So folks,as I've heard this saying

Somewhere too many times before ''up to you'' you in or you out?

Edited December 23, 2015 by phitsanulokjohn

[jacko45k]

Really, I thought the UK was more united before we joined!

If we are to be all ruled from Brussels, the unity of the UK members seems less relevant.

A currency that went into crisis, an inability to protect borders, (after learning the folly of open ones) and vulnerability to invasion.

I would prefer politicians to interpret the benefits of in or out rather than this scare-mongering. Perhaps the Scots would prefer to be independent, both from Brussels and Westminster, and if so let it be so.

[SgtRock]

MaeJoMTB, on 23 Dec 2015 - 17:22, said:

Grouse, on 23 Dec 2015 - 10:51, said:

Well he'd better start educating the bumpkins who do not understand the benefits before it's too late!

I don't understand the benefits? ........ feel free to tell me!

This bumpkin is with you. I await with bated breath for someone, anyone to tell me the benefits of EU membership.

[Mister Fixit]

The propaganda starts again after Cameron didn't get what he wanted last week in Brussels.

Cameron never intended to leave the EU , but the bluff didn't work out. So it is back to manipulating the Brits to vote for staying in the EU.

Lets hope the UK breaks. The Scottish & Welch & Irish should have become independent centuries ago.

Er, it was only a century ago that Ireland became independent from England and only THREE centuries ago that Scotland AGREED to unite with England and Wales.

The Welsh were conquered by the Norman English about 7 centuries ago, although the formal Act of Union was not until as recently as 1536.

Learn some history!

[thaibeachlovers]

Quote function not working.

Replying to #2

Benefits- do tell.

Perhaps you refer to the benefits of paying large amounts of tax to Brussels to be dictated to by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats, LOL.

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.

[Grouse]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/16/brexit-uk-11bn-extra-costs-eu-trade-research

Gives a balanced discussion

As I say, the issue is non trivial

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand quantum mechanics"

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 12:11, said:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/16/brexit-uk-11bn-extra-costs-eu-trade-research

Gives a balanced discussion

As I say, the issue is non trivial

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand quantum mechanics"

Lord Rose gives a balanced view and discussion ?

I will refer you to post 02. Those bumpkins that you referred to was obviously aimed right between your own eyeballs.

Lord Rose

[Grouse]

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

OK, try this then

How about some reasoned debate?

What have you got against Lord Rose anyway? Blair, Brown and Major all seem to agree with him.....

[Grouse]

http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21673507-better-or-out-common-market-economics

See what The Economist has to say.....

For me, it's not obvious.

But, on balance, better in than out if only for the civilising aspects of Europe......

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 12:45, said:

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

OK, try this then

How about some reasoned debate?

What have you got against Lord Rose anyway? Blair, Brown and Major all seem to agree with him.....

Reasoned debate ? Your quality post @ 02 indicates that you are not capable of reasoned debate.

Just because I don't agree with Lord Rose does not mean that I have anything against him.

Just let me remind you what and who a Government is responsible for. The people, not business.

Its not all about money, but lets take Lord Roses unsubstantiated claim that it would cost the UK £ 11 Billion. Great, we are still up a Billion.

Blair, Brown and Major ? The only one of them that has a redeeming feature is Brown. He kept the UK out of the Euro. But if you are using them as your guiding light it might be best if you stayed in the dark.

[daveAustin]

Along with an EU exit, the jocks leaving UK would be heaven along with independence for Wales and NI (the latter would not want unity with their republic neighbour as many - yanks especially - might think). Everyone with their own control and sovereignty. Balls to glory days blah blah, but the latter is EVERYTHING. Citizen of England on passport and Land of Hope and Glory for national anthem... happy days!

Edited December 25, 2015 by daveAustin

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 12:45, said:

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

OK, try this then

How about some reasoned debate?

What have you got against Lord Rose anyway? Blair, Brown and Major all seem to agree with him.....

Reasoned debate ? Your quality post @ 02 indicates that you are not capable of reasoned debate.

Just because I don't agree with Lord Rose does not mean that I have anything against him.

Just let me remind you what and who a Government is responsible for. The people, not business.

Its not all about money, but lets take Lord Roses unsubstantiated claim that it would cost the UK £ 11 Billion. Great, we are still up a Billion.

Blair, Brown and Major ? The only one of them that has a redeeming feature is Brown. He kept the UK out of the Euro. But if you are using them as your guiding light it might be best if you stayed in the dark.

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

[Grouse]

Along with an EU exit, the jocks leaving UK would be heaven along with independence for Wales and NI (the latter would not want unity with their republic neighbour as many - yanks especially - might think). Everyone with their own control and sovereignty. Balls to glory days blah blah, but the latter is EVERYTHING. Citizen of England on passport and Land of Hope and Glory for national anthem... happy days!

Be careful what you wish for

The Scots have a much greater sense of social democracy than the English these days (similar to Scandinavia)

I for one do not relish the idea of being next state of America with all that would mean........

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

[Grouse]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

[Grouse]

By the way, This Is Money is owned by The Daily Mail!

Sorry, but I would rather trust The Economist

Titter, titter....

[thaibeachlovers]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 13:49, said:

My comment at 02 was a reaction to all the "shoot from the hip comments" we get on this issue

My point is that it is a complex nuanced issue

I am posting articles to try and illustrate the point

Clearly keeping out of the Euro was the correct decision

But I'm not convinced that the benefits of leaving justify the disadvantages and the risks

I am pro Europe on many levels including the civilised nature of their systems generally speaking

Have you looked at typical pension provisions for example?

Infrastructure?

Health?

Equality?

Happiness even

So, let's have a reasoned debate!

Bt the way, we have a representative democracy - we don't need a plebiscite on every damn thing!

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

You might want to rethink the bit about social contracts re Sweden. When people go around stabbing immigrants in school and attacking hostels things are not going well.

[Grouse]

Yes, very sad that such welcoming people as the Swedes and Danes have had their societies distorted by Muslim immigrants and are now suffering unrest from the resulting social upheaval. However, that's a different topic I think.

[SgtRock]

Grouse, on 25 Dec 2015 - 16:07, said:

SgtRock, on 25 Dec 2015 - 14:31, said:

1. As the 1st comment, it was nothing to do with anyone shooting from the hip. It was your assertion, right from the off that anyone who did not agree with your view was a bumpkin.

2. It is only a complex nuanced issue if you wish it to be so. It can be equally simple and straight forward.

3. When you post articles that are Pro - EU, those articles do not illustrate YOUR point. They are only a mantra of the stay in Brigade. They actually weaken your argument as it shows that you have no intellectual input of your own. I could post 1000's of Pro - out material. It would be a waste of time for the exact same reasons.

4. Obviously.

5. Try listing what YOU perceive to be the benefits, advantages, disadvantages or risks for yourself. While this might sound intellectual to some, it is merely words of no substance.

6. Pensions, infrastructure, health and equality ? Are you talking about the UK ? Have you been in an induced coma for 30 years ?

As you were very quick to highlight Lord Rose's unsubstantiated £ 11 Billion cost perhaps you should read this from 2012.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

Your 2nd link I stopped reading when it asserted the UK would be hammered with trade tariffs. More unsubstantiated guff.

Reasoned debate ! Your havin a laff.

There have been many earlier threads on this topic which I have replied to at length and yes, most of the contributions were in my opinion ill thought out and ill informed

I have stated quite clearly that I am pro Europe generally for all sorts of reasons having lived on the continent for many years

I am also quite negative towards American social norms

These are personal opinions

However, the massive rise in inequality and the increasing Xenophobic attitudes in England worry me

The social contracts in much of continental Europe (Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands, France etc) seems to result in greater happiness generally than I observe in England these days

Financially, I do think the membership cost is worth it. According to Wiki, we have a GDP approaching 3 trillion USD (as at Sept 2015). Membership at about 0.3% of GDP is reasonable IMHO

The UK benefits greatly from inward investment BECAUSE we are in the EU

Also around 50% of our trade is with the EU

From what I read, a majority of business leaders want to remain in

Why do you think I have been in coma because of my opinion on European systems?

Check out typical pension provisions....

Also worth looking at Gini coefficients

American social norms, your personal opinion, xenophobic attitudes in England, the social contracts in much of continental Europe and Wiki do not really have much bearing on the actual topic.

Thank you for confirming what I already knew.

Reasonable debate is something that is beyond you.

[pedro01]

MaeJoMTB, on 23 Dec 2015 - 17:22, said:

Grouse, on 23 Dec 2015 - 10:51, said:

Well he'd better start educating the bumpkins who do not understand the benefits before it's too late!

I don't understand the benefits? ........ feel free to tell me!

This bumpkin is with you. I await with bated breath for someone, anyone to tell me the benefits of EU membership.

Me too - but I think they are too busy thinking of ways to scare us Bumpkins from voting for an exit.