Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[smedly]

Someone kindly posted previously about the DNA findings in response to my question about methods, data, analysis - not really answering my question, but interesting all the same.

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

16 Matching loci on only the vWA Core Locus .. probability of 0.21 - that is just over one in five. 21 out of 100 people.

really.. not the whole geonome? to have a statistically meaningful identification you need to match on 13 locus (US)

Completely meaningless when there is zero documentation on how the samples were processed.. I simply do not believe that the DNA found on Hannah was correctly processed.

If the Samples were correctly processed then simple response is PROVE IT!

It is not enough just say there are 16 matches on a single locus. its is meaningless. Show you methods and your working out. Science 101!

PS do not shoot the messenger - personally I was grateful to STE for posting this information

The forum DNA expert will be along soon to confirm in very technical detail that DNA matched B2, if he ignores your post (very likely) I will summarise what he will say.

The Judge (scientific expert) ruled the DNA (that was never physically produced) matched the accused because police claim it does.

The highly qualified scientific criminal expert Millar family also confirmed this (sorry Millar family but you are not qualified or have experience to make that call) which is of little relevance

The motive for the murders was rape which the UK coroner report says did not happen so where did the claimed non presented DNA evidence originate ? was it made up or was it the saliva samples tested against themselves, no chain of custody presented so impossible to determine what was tested against what and where it came from even if tests actually took place.

A very robust case in every respect......right

Have you read the court report?

Please provide a citation were it says that the actual physical DNA evidence needs to be presented to the court to have the analysis results accepted as valid.

You have repeatedly portrayed yourself as an expert on court proceedings, it should be easy.

Here's a good debunking of the misinformation regarding this issue:

"Let’s look at the actual facts about the Koh Tao Murder Trial regarding the DNA evidence and subsequent analysis:

1) The DNA analysis used in the Koh Tao trial was a 16 STR loci analysis. These results can can displayed as a simplistic, one page table. But just because the table is simplistic doesn’t mean the analysis was. Due to its statistical power of discrimination, STR analysis is the gold standard in forensic DNA testing across the globe. [1,2,3] Relating to the hand written amendments, changes, and alterations, ISO/IEC 17025 clearly states that “when mistakes occur in records, each mistake shall be crossed out, not erased, made illegible or deleted, and the correct value entered alongside.” In court, this also relates to the integrity of the evidence, as well as its transparency and accountability. Both the original and amended laboratory reports (whether hand written or typed) are considered legal documents. [4,5] Any statement about what ‘would or wouldn’t’ be admissible in another court is pure speculation and not based on any facts. The admittance or exclusion of evidence is a discretionary decision made by the trial judge, in any courtroom. [5]

2) ISO/IEC 17025 does not list any specific requirements for ‘chain of custody’ records. Nor does it require any lab to do statistical calculations based on “validated population data bases” of any kind. It is simply a document that lists the “general requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories”. ISO standards are intentionally broad and general in nature as they are meant for international use. Each lab will develop its own policies and practice procedures regarding ‘chain of custody’ records. The laboratories that sampled and analyzed the DNA samples in the Koh Tao trial were found to have been following their written ‘chain of custody’ procedures and practices and thus were in compliance with ISO/IEC 17025. [1,4]

3) Because STR analysis data is so readily inferred from the genotyping data and easily interpreted, it may seem oversimplified to someone unfamiliar with the intricacies of molecular biology. In STR analysis, DNA is extracted from a sample, quantified, and then amplified. After amplification, the separation and detection of specific STR regions occurs. After detecting these STR regions or alleles, the number of repeats is determined. This process is called sample genotyping. The resulting DNA profile, which is a combination of individual STR genotypes, is then used for comparison between two samples. The results are often displayed as a simplistic table, comparing the number of repeats at each STR loci between the two samples. [2,3]

4) It is not essential to do a statistical analysis based on allelic frequency to determine the probability due to the large literature base of published studies on STR analysis. One famous study found that “the average match probability for the combined 13 loci is rarer than one in a trillion, even in the population with the most reduced genetic variation” and “there has been no case to date where two people have been found to have matching STR markers in all 13 areas used for comparison (except identical twins)”. The probability of a 16 STR loci match (which was found for both of the defendants in the Koh Tao trial) being a random match would be even less than these reported probabilities. [3,6,7]

5) Again, STR analysis is the standard in forensic DNA testing across the globe. STR regions are highly variable between individuals, which is why they are used in forensic testing. Even using DNA-17, the 10 STR loci analysis used by UK law enforcement, a 10 STR loci match “has a match probability estimated in the order of 1 in a billion”. In the Koh Tao trial, the DNA profiles extracted from semen found in one victim were a 16 STR loci match to the DNA profiles extracted from cheek swabs from both of the defendants. The probability of a 16 STR loci match being a random match is less than 0.0000000001%. [1,3,8]

REFERENCES:

[1] Koh Samui Court Report (available to read on BlindJusticeKohTao’s Facebook page)

[2] Perlin, MW. Easy Reporting of Hard DNA: Computer Comfort in the Courtroom. Forensic Magazine; 2012. http://www.forensicmag.com/…/easy-reporting-hard-dna-comput… (accessed 6 January 2016).

[3] Butler, JM. Fundamentals of Forensic DNA Typing. Maryland, USA. Academic Press; 2010. https://goo.gl/j4wJnB

[4] ISO/IEC 17025. General requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories. http://www.dc.mahidol.ac.th/…/con…/ISO_Wada/iso17025_eng.pdf

[5] Munday, R. Evidence. 8th ed. Oxford, UK. Oxford University Press; 2015. https://goo.gl/Imw4IS

[6] Chakraborty, R. et al. The utility of short tandem repeat loci beyond human identification: Implications for development of new DNA typing systems. Electrophoresis. 1999; 20(8): 1682-1696. https://www.msu.edu/user/msuhla/mod2_1.pdf

[7] National Forensic Science Technology Center. A Simplified Guide to DNA Evidence. Florida, USA. Bureau of Justice Assistance; 2013. http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/dna/DNA.pdf

[8] The Crown Prosecution Service.. DNA-17 Profiling. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/dna-17_profiling/… (accessed 6 January 2016)."

Unlike your constant denials that analysis cites sources, references actual court documents and doesn't resort to imaginary scenarios to make an argument.

I admire your research and efforts not sure why you would put so much work into posting on this forum? but again it is all misdirection.

I have over 20 years experience with ISO 17025 certification or equivalent and I would never ever present evidence such as this without a retained 'original' sample. End of story, end of misdirection? Please.

for probably going on 7 months now I have consistently used the words "original samples" which from a DNA perspective would have been abundant not only from the crime scene but also again from any autopsy, none of this has been made available to defence or the court................it was lost - used up - never existed (I'll go with that one), the weird thing about all this is that now only one idiot is trying insult smart educated people who see this farce for what it is

This forum would be a much better place for discussion if people made their point and moved on, why is it just the same thing over and over

May I also say that the moderators of TVF have a very difficult job which they generally do extremely well, I have said this many times over the years and it is what makes this forum so popular, you guys can not read every post and stay on top especially with this thread, so I give you guys a thumbs up, great job ............and yes maybe I might be breaking rules by even saying this but .........well done and a happy new year to you all

[lkv]

Reality check time again.

1. They have been found guilty of the crime.

2. There will be NO appeal

3. Tourists will still flock to Thailand.

4. The two will be executed

While you can argue about the facts, is the law any different in your own country? Very much doubt it, corruption is rife where ever there is power. There are certainly innocent people on death row in America.

If the girl was ugly, its very doubtful anyone would have cared less. When you realise life is a game, you will accept what it throws at you.

Yeah maxninja, those are valid points actually, and I'm glad you brought them up.

1. Correct

2. Incorrect, unless they get executed before, unlikely because of the international attention but you never know. I do believe however by law everybody has the right to appeal, what comes out of that appeal is the question.

2a. Even on the appeal, chances are they are still found guilty, but sentence reduced to life. This appears to be the Thai way of saying: "There you go, we have been lenient. What more do u want."

I think there are some slim chances though they would be found not guilty following an appeal after a few years, once people have forgotten about it and there is no more buzz in the press. If history was to repeat itself like back in 2000 with those Chinese guys.

To be realistic though and on the same page with you, the chances of this case being declared a mistrial say next week because of the buzz are close to zero if not zero. It will take a few years IMO.

3. It was called Teflon Thailand for a reason, in my opinion this case is only part of the problem, I do see their obsession with tourism and saving face about it to their own people actually (creating the impression that everything is great for political purposes - like many countries would do, it's just in this case the manipulation is more basic and some can easily see through it but I guess most locals won't). So yeah, I wish them all the best, I'd be happy that the tourist numbers are 100 million, but sometimes it comes down to the attitude you have towards those tourists. You don't tell them indirectly that they are walking ATMs (see the "quality tourist" rhetoric, linked with "In fact we think foreigners are criminals" (Erawan) but hey we need their money so let's be tolerant ,addressing to the Hong Kong rich demographic advertisement etc). We don't want to feel tolerated, we want to feel welcome. And on top of it, we have this Koh Tao case and some others that appear concerning (girl dying of chest infection, man hangs himself with hands tied behind his back). We don't want to be killed either.

4. Thailand does not tend to execute people often, in most cases sentences are converted to life on appeal.

For me it's not about the girl being pretty or not, it's about feeling the need to be safe and not framed when I travel somewhere.

[smedly]

Someone kindly posted previously about the DNA findings in response to my question about methods, data, analysis - not really answering my question, but interesting all the same.

STR vWA analysis: DNA from rectum of Hannah Witheridge

16 matching loci to Zaw Lin (Zoren) & 16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR vWA analysis: DNA from vagina of Hannah Witheridge

16 matching loci to Wai Phyo (Win)

STR D2S1338 analysis: DNA from right nipple of Hannah Witheridge

Positive match to Wai Phyo (Win), loci 20 & 25 missing

16 Matching loci on only the vWA Core Locus .. probability of 0.21 - that is just over one in five. 21 out of 100 people.

really.. not the whole geonome? to have a statistically meaningful identification you need to match on 13 locus (US)

Completely meaningless when there is zero documentation on how the samples were processed.. I simply do not believe that the DNA found on Hannah was correctly processed.

If the Samples were correctly processed then simple response is PROVE IT!

It is not enough just say there are 16 matches on a single locus. its is meaningless. Show you methods and your working out. Science 101!

PS do not shoot the messenger - personally I was grateful to STE for posting this information

The forum DNA expert will be along soon to confirm in very technical detail that DNA matched B2, if he ignores your post (very likely) I will summarise what he will say.

The Judge (scientific expert) ruled the DNA (that was never physically produced) matched the accused because police claim it does.

The highly qualified scientific criminal expert Millar family also confirmed this (sorry Millar family but you are not qualified or have experience to make that call) which is of little relevance

The motive for the murders was rape which the UK coroner report says did not happen so where did the claimed non presented DNA evidence originate ? was it made up or was it the saliva samples tested against themselves, no chain of custody presented so impossible to determine what was tested against what and where it came from even if tests actually took place.

A very robust case in every respect......right

Have you read the court report?

Please provide a citation were it says that the actual physical DNA evidence needs to be presented to the court to have the analysis results accepted as valid.

You have repeatedly portrayed yourself as an expert on court proceedings, it should be easy.

Here's a good debunking of the misinformation regarding this issue:

"Let’s look at the actual facts about the Koh Tao Murder Trial regarding the DNA evidence and subsequent analysis:

1) The DNA analysis used in the Koh Tao trial was a 16 STR loci analysis. These results can can displayed as a simplistic, one page table. But just because the table is simplistic doesn’t mean the analysis was. Due to its statistical power of discrimination, STR analysis is the gold standard in forensic DNA testing across the globe. [1,2,3] Relating to the hand written amendments, changes, and alterations, ISO/IEC 17025 clearly states that “when mistakes occur in records, each mistake shall be crossed out, not erased, made illegible or deleted, and the correct value entered alongside.” In court, this also relates to the integrity of the evidence, as well as its transparency and accountability. Both the original and amended laboratory reports (whether hand written or typed) are considered legal documents. [4,5] Any statement about what ‘would or wouldn’t’ be admissible in another court is pure speculation and not based on any facts. The admittance or exclusion of evidence is a discretionary decision made by the trial judge, in any courtroom. [5]

2) ISO/IEC 17025 does not list any specific requirements for ‘chain of custody’ records. Nor does it require any lab to do statistical calculations based on “validated population data bases” of any kind. It is simply a document that lists the “general requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories”. ISO standards are intentionally broad and general in nature as they are meant for international use. Each lab will develop its own policies and practice procedures regarding ‘chain of custody’ records. The laboratories that sampled and analyzed the DNA samples in the Koh Tao trial were found to have been following their written ‘chain of custody’ procedures and practices and thus were in compliance with ISO/IEC 17025. [1,4]

3) Because STR analysis data is so readily inferred from the genotyping data and easily interpreted, it may seem oversimplified to someone unfamiliar with the intricacies of molecular biology. In STR analysis, DNA is extracted from a sample, quantified, and then amplified. After amplification, the separation and detection of specific STR regions occurs. After detecting these STR regions or alleles, the number of repeats is determined. This process is called sample genotyping. The resulting DNA profile, which is a combination of individual STR genotypes, is then used for comparison between two samples. The results are often displayed as a simplistic table, comparing the number of repeats at each STR loci between the two samples. [2,3]

4) It is not essential to do a statistical analysis based on allelic frequency to determine the probability due to the large literature base of published studies on STR analysis. One famous study found that “the average match probability for the combined 13 loci is rarer than one in a trillion, even in the population with the most reduced genetic variation” and “there has been no case to date where two people have been found to have matching STR markers in all 13 areas used for comparison (except identical twins)”. The probability of a 16 STR loci match (which was found for both of the defendants in the Koh Tao trial) being a random match would be even less than these reported probabilities. [3,6,7]

5) Again, STR analysis is the standard in forensic DNA testing across the globe. STR regions are highly variable between individuals, which is why they are used in forensic testing. Even using DNA-17, the 10 STR loci analysis used by UK law enforcement, a 10 STR loci match “has a match probability estimated in the order of 1 in a billion”. In the Koh Tao trial, the DNA profiles extracted from semen found in one victim were a 16 STR loci match to the DNA profiles extracted from cheek swabs from both of the defendants. The probability of a 16 STR loci match being a random match is less than 0.0000000001%. [1,3,8]

REFERENCES:

[1] Koh Samui Court Report (available to read on BlindJusticeKohTao’s Facebook page)

[2] Perlin, MW. Easy Reporting of Hard DNA: Computer Comfort in the Courtroom. Forensic Magazine; 2012. http://www.forensicmag.com/…/easy-reporting-hard-dna-comput… (accessed 6 January 2016).

[3] Butler, JM. Fundamentals of Forensic DNA Typing. Maryland, USA. Academic Press; 2010. https://goo.gl/j4wJnB

[4] ISO/IEC 17025. General requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories. http://www.dc.mahidol.ac.th/…/con…/ISO_Wada/iso17025_eng.pdf

[5] Munday, R. Evidence. 8th ed. Oxford, UK. Oxford University Press; 2015. https://goo.gl/Imw4IS

[6] Chakraborty, R. et al. The utility of short tandem repeat loci beyond human identification: Implications for development of new DNA typing systems. Electrophoresis. 1999; 20(8): 1682-1696. https://www.msu.edu/user/msuhla/mod2_1.pdf

[7] National Forensic Science Technology Center. A Simplified Guide to DNA Evidence. Florida, USA. Bureau of Justice Assistance; 2013. http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/dna/DNA.pdf

[8] The Crown Prosecution Service.. DNA-17 Profiling. https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/dna-17_profiling/… (accessed 6 January 2016)."

Unlike your constant denials that analysis cites sources, references actual court documents and doesn't resort to imaginary scenarios to make an argument.

I admire your research and efforts not sure why you would put so much work into posting on this forum? but again it is all misdirection.

I have over 20 years experience with ISO 17025 certification or equivalent and I would never ever present evidence such as this without a retained 'original' sample. End of story, end of misdirection? Please.

someone will be along soon to say that this does not apply in Thailand, like I said in an earlier post, if Thailand made the move to adopt Western DNA protocols and procedures then it must be 100% integrated, they simply cannot chose which bits they want, if original samples are going to be used up then there are procedures to follow to ensure integrity. I am going to repeat myself again - there is no way on this earth that original samples would have been used up in this instance, the samples would have been huge by DNA standards not only from the crime scene but also again from autopsy, these original samples are physical evidence, if they don't exist then there really is a big problem, "yes they matched" is just complete nonsense, how the Thai authorities cannot see this for what it is is quite frankly astounding, maybe money is more important than looking stupid - I suppose I knew that already, time to start teaching children about honor honesty and integrity

A funny thought I had earlier tonight, in the west yes some people lie, we have a scale of lies that goes from say 1-10, nothing too bad and we generally cope with that, but when the lie scale goes beyond 10 most of us don't even see it because we never imagine there is a scale of 11-50, we are hit with such profound dishonesty that most can't believe it exists

[JusticeKT]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

[lkv]

A funny thought I had earlier tonight, in the west yes some people lie, we have a scale of lies that goes from say 1-10, nothing too bad and we generally cope with that, but when the lie scale goes beyond 10 most of us don't even see it because we never imagine there is a scale of 11-50, we are hit with such profound dishonesty that most can't believe it exists

Yeah I'm in the same boat, for the first 4 years I never saw the 11-50, it was all a nice 1-10 bubble. I've started to see it more recently and I wish I hadn't, it does not do me any good.

But it is what it is.

Problem is, once you hit 11 you are aware that 50 also exists, so it could easily go that direction. Even though you would hope it goes back to 9.

Maybe that's what this thread is hoping, bring it back to 9, and then somehow we will erase 11-50 again from our minds and go back into the bubble. It was more comfortable.

[smedly]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

well I was done with this forum for today but I logged back in to "like" and agree with what you just said

if all the people discussing this topic were to meet face to face I think I would be a gardener for the evening

[tribalfusion001]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

well I was done with this forum for today but I logged back in to "like" and agree with what you just said

if all the people discussing this topic were to meet face to face I think I would be a gardener for the evening

It would be a very long evening too and at the end of it, no conclusion lol

[AGareth2]

More bluster from you to ignore the fact that Mon and Nomsod were caught on CCTV at the crime scene, so your assertion that the B2 is valid but it also means that they were accomplices to Mon and Nomsod, doesn't it?

If this is not the case then everything you have said all along is a pure lie. So I am agreeing with everything you said about the B2, but you are missing out the part about their bosses involvement.

So now you know for a fact that there's footage of them at the crime scene, and I'm the one that lies.

The police chief said that Nomsod and Mon were on the CCTV footage of the crime scene and were definitely implicated. Did the police say that or am I lying?

The police said that. You are not lying. Here ya go. Plenty more coverage if anyone needs it on the Web.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

In case you didn't notice, I had already posted that link to show that KunMatt was wrong... and you can't even see what is right in front of your eyes that nowhere does it say they were caught by CCTV at the crime scene.

This is just sad.

It is sad because you are not prepared to even consider anything off of your script. The police said that they had gathered enough evidence that implicated them in the crime, this could well mean the evidence from the CCTV they were just talking about.

I know that all we have is the English translation. Maybe we could get more info from the direct Thai quotes if anyone has it or can find it.

Either way we can say for certain that the police chief said that Mon and Nomsod were caught on TV and he had enough evidence that implicated them in the crime. No matter how you spin it this is a fact in black and white. So from this we can say for certain that Nomsod was not in Bangkok like he claimed so he was lying.

True or false?

You continue to ignore the fact that the police did the same thing at least twice before, announce that they had strong evidence against other people (up to the point of directly accusing them of being the murderer) before realizing that they had no such strong evidence.

If you can't bring yourself to accept that fact it's no wonder you are stuck on September 23rd 2014.

True or false?

Your logic is flawed, therefore false.

You confuse the police saying that something is so and so with that something being so, and then compound that mistake to use it as the premise to support the conclusion that Nomsod wasn't in Bangkok.

The police say the B2 did it, therefore that is so. End of discussion.

You like that?

like the DNA evidence?

[happy Joe]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

And a troll again, one.

For many including me pathetic antics are here on this forum with the endless parade of arm chairs detectives dissecting for the thousandth time a detail that could prove them right.

Yet Justice ruled, helped by an army of lawyers formal or not to find a flaw. But none of their arguments were conclusive.

One wonders what motivates these posters redundant? May be the sight of blood or the show of corpse posture degrading presented largely at the same audience hungry for macabre sensation.

I hope not, but I begin to doubt ...

[kcirtapyelrah]

Anonymous have put up a video, it's on YouTube.

[JusticeKT]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

And a troll again, one.

For many including me pathetic antics are here on this forum with the endless parade of arm chairs detectives dissecting for the thousandth time a detail that could prove them right.

Yet Justice ruled, helped by an army of lawyers formal or not to find a flaw. But none of their arguments were conclusive.

One wonders what motivates these posters redundant? May be the sight of blood or the show of corpse posture degrading presented largely at the same audience hungry for macabre sensation.

I hope not, but I begin to doubt ...

If I was perceived by you as a "troll", I should imagine that you have no such high values in your life as I have, let alone a feeling for justice. Sadly.. However, we are discussing a topic and not individuals - so let this go.

[StealthEnergiser]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

I do not agree with such statement - the reason why so many people here discuss the case is for one sole reason: we all deeply care and want to see justice. If the case had been handled in a transparent and straight forward manner, there would have been no need to discuss at such length. Alas, as the farce goes on, and plenty of people look thru these pathetic antics by the RTP, it is only natural that the ones' with a conscience feel deeply concerned - and want to discuss. This is too serious a case to let go of - two lovely young people lost their life in the most horrific circumstances - I, as most others on the forum, want to see the psychopaths caught and brought to justice. Profiling the murderers, it would not fit the tiny midgets......

Thats the reason for thousands of pages of discussions - because we care. It could be you or me next time around......

And a troll again, one.

For many including me pathetic antics are here on this forum with the endless parade of arm chairs detectives dissecting for the thousandth time a detail that could prove them right.

Yet Justice ruled, helped by an army of lawyers formal or not to find a flaw. But none of their arguments were conclusive.

One wonders what motivates these posters redundant? May be the sight of blood or the show of corpse posture degrading presented largely at the same audience hungry for macabre sensation.

I hope not, but I begin to doubt ...

A message from the Anonymous group more or less sums it up, it should be posted and reposted every day until the B2 are free:

KOH SAMUI TRIAL:

1.Hannah's clothing untested for forensics and missing from evidence (obviously would have the murderer's DNA on them)

2.Both young Burmese men were allegedly tortured for a false confession. Their bruises seen by witnesses.

3.No valid DNA evidence was presented at the court.

4.According to Thai police DNA samples were contaminated or ‘used up’.

5.Thai police didn't test the alleged murder weapon for DNA. Dr. Pornthip, head of the Central Institute of Forensic Science stated in court that the DNA on the murder weapon does not match the defendants.

6.There are undisclosed discrepancies between Thai coroner’s report vs UK report.

7.Thai suspects DNA sample never received and tested.

8.CCTV footage at pier never checked despite an early morning boat leaving on the day of the murders.

9.Two actual eyewitnesses to the murders of Hannah and David too afraid to testify.

10.High ranking police gave very contradictory statements whilst testifying at court.

11.No "chain of custody" maintained with forensics.

12.No DNA evidence regarding cigarette butts given to the court.

13.Blonde hair found in Hannah's hand with root on it never forensically tested. now, missing from evidence.

14.Official questioning of the suspects was flawed and unprofessional. Questions were raised by the witnesses about ethnic biases on the part of the translators. The embassy interpreter, who said that he handled most translations for cases like this, said the quality of the work done by the two unofficial translators was low quality and unprofessional.

15.Mr Stephen Cole from Acume Forensics has confirmed that Wai Phyo could not be the so-called running man seen in the ‘selective’ CCTV footage collected by Koh Tao police.

and further:

22 year-old Zaw Lin said he was struck in the chest by a police officer, but also punched by the translator after he was asked questions about his religion and his ethnicity.

The prosecution maintains that Zaw Lin, and his co-accused Wei Phyo, also 22, confessed freely to raping and murdering 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, from Hemsby, and killing fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey. Thai police have denied their confessions were extracted by torture.

Contradicting the testimony of numerous police officers, Zaw Lin claimed not only did police physically assault him, but they even gave him pain killing cream for the injury to his chest, which he claims an officer inflicted.

Both the accused are to give testimony this weekend in the final two days of this trial. Previously Zaw Lin described to the panel of three judges how he was stripped, blindfolded, and had numerous plastic bags placed over his head during questioning to force him to confess to the crimes. He also said he was told his body would be dismembered, burned and dumped at sea.

His DNA, now linking him to the crimes, was taken forcibly, he said.

In his latest testimony he explained that the Muslim Burmese translator, who came from the same region as him, Rakhine State, but was of a different religion, asked him if he had been in Myanmar during the recent ethnic and religious conflicts where Buddhists and Rohinga Muslims had taken part in retaliatory killings.

“I told him no. I said I was already in Thailand,” Zaw Lin said, “And then he punched me.”

Zaw Lin said the same translator also told him he would be killed if he did not follow police instructions at the public re-enactment of the crimes last October, or if he tried to speak to reporters who were present.

Zaw Lin said both he and Wei Phyo were instructed and guided by police in exactly what to do at internal police and public re-enactments.

[MorristheRunt]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

[asiamaster]

They're all illegal, 500 baht plus 500 baht for motorbike per month not to "get caught" apparently.

So I would imagine they earn what? 5,000-7,000 baht per month?

For a Myanmar national to legally work in Thailand with a work permit, the minimum declared salary has to be 25,000 baht.

Yes, I know what some of the people reading must be thinking. "Lol"

So yeah, that's another angle to shut people up or abuse them, take advantage of those aspects. Some with no passports, some with no visas, some on overstay, some (all actually) without a WP.

Etc.

Only Win was illegal.

[kcirtapyelrah]

The internet is the most powerful and most effective tool ever created, thank you Sir Tim Burners Lee for your gift and all its wonder.

[asiamaster]

A message from the Anonymous group more or less sums it up, it should be posted and reposted every day until the B2 are free:

Copy/paste job

[asiamaster]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

Why don't you ask CSI LA or Anonymous to track him down?

[smedly]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

I said much the same thing last week and also asked if this man was still on Koh Tao selling "Roti's" (which I doubt) nobody responded, he is a weak link as you say, knows enough to cause problems - can't return to his home country - has a few million baht that he didn't earn selling roti's, wouldn't take much to persaude him to talk.

I suspect he is in hiding or has vanished completely, either way if I was the director of this seedy business I'd be writting him out of the script

[asiamaster]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

I said much the same thing last week and also asked if this man was still on Koh Tao selling "Roti's" (which I doubt) nobody responded, he is a weak link as you say, knows enough to cause problems - can't return to his home country - has a few million baht that he didn't earn selling roti's, wouldn't take much to persaude him to talk.

I suspect he is in hiding or has vanished completely, either way if I was the director of this seedy business I'd be writting him out of the script

No he is not still on Koh Tao selling roti - he never was

[AleG]

A message from the Anonymous group more or less sums it up, it should be posted and reposted every day until the B2 are free:

Copy/paste job

Not just that, it's propaganda laundering; the message is a laundry list of so called facts of the case produced by "activists" (some of which are here) that they sent to Anonymous, who were all too happy to regurgitate. Now the "activists" point at it and say "Look at what Anonymous has to say about this!" as a means to add credibility to a list they created in the first place.

In addition to that, becoming a spam-bot is hardly the trait of a person or group capable of defending their position.

[MorristheRunt]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

Why don't you ask CSI LA or Anonymous to track him down?

He has already been tracked down.....

[cadmus]

A message from the Anonymous group more or less sums it up, it should be posted and reposted every day until the B2 are free:

Copy/paste job

Not just that, it's propaganda laundering; the message is a laundry list of so called facts of the case produced by "activists" (some of which are here) that they sent to Anonymous, who were all too happy to regurgitate. Now the "activists" point at it and say "Look at what Anonymous has to say about this!" as a means to add credibility to a list they created in the first place.

In addition to that, becoming a spam-bot is hardly the trait of a person or group capable of defending their position.

My feeling is that Anonymous are quite capable of doing their own research on this and as such hardly need a list sent to them by activists from Thai Visa. You say some are on here who is that? Why is posting a list of legitimate concerns some of which will probably be used in the Appeal classified as spam to you? I have read similar concerns and similar lists in various news reports also, some of which are international. Are they also activists? Championing a cause that to many appears to be an unjust decision does not to me seem to be unreasonable. That is why their are avenues for appeal and avenues to find justice and call for justice through legal channels. I dont agree with the hacking of websites but I do agree with applying pressure, its the only way that some govenrments change a rotten and corrupt system.

[boomerangutang]

What part of "I will accept anything that can be substantiated with verifiable evidence" is so difficult to grasp?

Can you accept these points...?...

>>> Nomsod wouldn't submit to DNA and hid from police for about 10 days.

>>> Mon wouldn't submit to DNA initially. Mon walked in around the crime scene when it was fresh.

>>> Some of Hannah's clothes have been lost by RTP. They weren't tested before before being lost (if so, where's the data?)

>>> The hair in Hannah's hand has been lost by RTP. It wasn't tested before before being lost (if so, where's the data?)

>>> There are no records of phone activity, other than the vague reference, 10 months after the crime, that Nomsod's phone was used sometime before 12 noon on Monday the 15th Oct - which signifies nothing useful.

>>> There has been no checking with Nok Air about anything. If so, where's the report?

>>> There was no follow-up to the boat driver who was found sleeping in a cave on Samui the morning of the 16th. Initially, cops said he was too drugged to talk. Was there follow-up? If so, what was said?

>>> Police deputy admitted no cops looked at the CCTV which may have shown a boat or boats leaving the island soon after the crime. "Wasn't important," he said.

>>> There has been no tangible DNA evidence (no swabs, etc) exhibited in court by RTP or prosecution. Everything they presented was heresay and/or notes on paper. How hard would it be to jot down some notes on a paper card - which aligned with what your boss wanted.

>>> self-appointed head cop Somyot and his wife bought $12 million of stock in Wattana Capital weeks after the Headman's people were permanently and totally excused from any further investigation.

@AleG

Mon was arrested after evidence police collected and examined proved he was involved.

and

Mon and the village headman's son (presumably Nomsod and not his brother) were captured by CCTV

and

police HAD enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

And then another cop came along and none of that mattered anymore.

Put all that together and it would appear they would have had to be at the crime scene. Doesn't take much to figure that one out. There was likely more than one crime scene. CCTV might not have placed them at the beach where the bodies were found, but it might have captured them somewhere else, such as the Ocean View, the AC bar - possibilities are endless.

Just semantics, but Mon wasn't really arrested in the strict sense. He was taken to a room and questioned for 3 hours by his police buddies. He never saw (and never will see) the inside of jail cell. He's untouchable. He was standing alongside the dozen top brass police officers who were lording over the two diminuitive scapegoats when the scapegoats were forced to ask forgiveness (from some Buddhist God) for the transgressions. One of the cops had his pelvis about 3 inches away from the mouth of one of the boys. Remember that photo? Several of the cops had their fists clenched.

Note: yes, I know Buddhism isn't supposed to have any Gods, but look at how it manifests in the real world.

[asiamaster]

My feeling is that Anonymous are quite capable of doing their own research on this and as such hardly need a list sent to them by activists from Thai Visa. You say some are on here who is that? Why is posting a list of legitimate concerns some of which will probably be used in the Appeal classified as spam to you? I have read similar concerns and similar lists in various news reports also, some of which are international. Are they also activists? Championing a cause that to many appears to be an unjust decision does not to me seem to be unreasonable. That is why their are avenues for appeal and avenues to find justice and call for justice through legal channels. I dont agree with the hacking of websites but I do agree with applying pressure, its the only way that some govenrments change a rotten and corrupt system.

Explain why the list is exactly the same (word for word) as posted by activists in September.

Always track pictures and text down to the original source and then judge if they are credible enough to share or repost.

[phuketandsee]

136 pages of debating and hearsay, some people have too much time on their hands!

No, a great many people are extremely upset and angry about this case and care very deeply about getting to the truth, wherever that leads.

[asiamaster]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

Why don't you ask CSI LA or Anonymous to track him down?

He has already been tracked down.....

Why do you ask then? And why don't you share this "credible" piece of information?

[boomerangutang]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

I said much the same thing last week and also asked if this man was still on Koh Tao selling "Roti's" (which I doubt) nobody responded, he is a weak link as you say, knows enough to cause problems - can't return to his home country - has a few million baht that he didn't earn selling roti's, wouldn't take much to persaude him to talk.

I suspect he is in hiding or has vanished completely, either way if I was the director of this seedy business I'd be writting him out of the script

It appears it was the Roti man who introduced the idea that the stab wounds were caused by a broken bottle. Or maybe a cop at the inquisition. Either way, there was no broken bottle nor glass shards at the crime scene, and the broken glass thing wasn't mentioned before or after the inquisition, except in reference to what I just mentioned. The interesting thing about that (besides the fact that the inquisitors made it up out of thin air) is that the B2 admitted to it. It proves the B2 were tortured. Also, when the B2 were able to speak freely, a few days after the inquisition (which wasn't recorded, not for us peons or the court, anyway), the B2 said it was the translator who scared them the most. I don't think Roti man is significant now. If he was interviewed by a free press, he would probably toe the police line. He knows as well as anyone, that if he strays off the official path of lies, he could be a dead man. Ko Tao has a history of people getting killed for the smallest offenses.

It's sickly ironic that, though cops are quick to pull out their mobile phone cameras and recorders when they want, like at the farcical reenactment. Yet there's zero footage available of the B3 (soon became B2) interrogation. Same for the 3 hours questioning Mon. I can picture the questioning of Mon, something like this:

cop: Did you do the crime?

Mon: No.

cop: Do you know who did?

Mon: No, but I think it was Sean or some Burmese. This crime could be terrible for my tourist business. We have to find a way to solve it as soon as possible.

cop: Yes, we know it's bad for your businesses. We're trying our best to nail some Burmese. We already let Sean go.

Mon: Good. That bastard knows too much.

cop: What do you think he knows about the crime?

Mon: You think I'm going to tell you?

cop: What about your nephew Nomsod. It looks like him in the Running Man video.

Mon: Leave him out of this. Don't even mention his name. You hear me?

cop: Sorry. Oh, can we see the CCTV from AC bar and In Touch bar?

Mon: No. It's my property. don't ask me again.

cop: Pleeeaase?

Mon: Ok, I'll show you the 9 seconds of David entering the AC bar around 1 am. That's all.

cop: Thanks. You're a great guy. Oh, and did you alter anything when you walked around the crime scene on Monday morning.

Mon: I resent that question. Of course not.

cop: Why did you cross the police tape?

Mon: I essentially own this beach. I go where I want. Don't ask me stupid questions.

cop: Sorry. Would you like an energy drink?

[Gweiloman]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

I said much the same thing last week and also asked if this man was still on Koh Tao selling "Roti's" (which I doubt) nobody responded, he is a weak link as you say, knows enough to cause problems - can't return to his home country - has a few million baht that he didn't earn selling roti's, wouldn't take much to persaude him to talk.

I suspect he is in hiding or has vanished completely, either way if I was the director of this seedy business I'd be writting him out of the script

No he is not still on Koh Tao selling roti - he never was

Never was? Interesting.....

[JLCrab]

<SNIP > I can picture the questioning of Mon, something like this:

cop: Did you do the crime?

Mon: No.

cop: Do you know who did?

Mon: No, but I think it was Sean or some Burmese. This crime could be terrible for my tourist business. We have to find a way to solve it as soon as possible.

cop: Yes, we know it's bad for your businesses. We're trying our best to nail some Burmese. We already let Sean go.

Mon: Good. That bastard knows too much.

cop: What do you think he knows about the crime?

Mon: You think I'm going to tell you?

cop: What about your nephew Nomsod. It looks like him in the Running Man video.

Mon: Leave him out of this. Don't even mention his name. You hear me?

cop: Sorry. Oh, can we see the CCTV from AC bar and In Touch bar?

Mon: No. It's my property. don't ask me again.

cop: Pleeeaase?

Mon: Ok, I'll show you the 9 seconds of David entering the AC bar around 1 am. That's all.

cop: Thanks. You're a great guy. Oh, and did you alter anything when you walked around the crime scene on Monday morning.

Mon: I resent that question. Of course not.

cop: Why did you cross the police tape?

Mon: I essentially own this beach. I go where I want. Don't ask me stupid questions.

cop: Sorry. Would you like an energy drink?

Mon: ... And as I've told that silly nephew of mine time and again: There are 4 other mafia families on the island. If you're going to go and murder some farang blond 'cause she won't give in to you, leave her body on the door step of one of the OTHER 4 families' properties.

[asiamaster]

Mr Roti is the weak link in the chain of disseat that is the prosecution case.

Where is this man? He needs to be interviewed and brought before the appeal court.

He must be a worried man, and he needs to be spoken to before he is silenced forever.

I said much the same thing last week and also asked if this man was still on Koh Tao selling "Roti's" (which I doubt) nobody responded, he is a weak link as you say, knows enough to cause problems - can't return to his home country - has a few million baht that he didn't earn selling roti's, wouldn't take much to persaude him to talk.

I suspect he is in hiding or has vanished completely, either way if I was the director of this seedy business I'd be writting him out of the script

No he is not still on Koh Tao selling roti - he never was

Never was? Interesting.....

roti1.png

roti2.jpg

No he never was selling roti on Koh Tao. Thank you for sending the picture of his shop on Kho Samui