Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[Sawan Chan 7]

Have you lot not accepted the result yet. How many years will you be at it? It's over, get on with your lives.

[boomerangutang]

>>> self-appointed head cop Somyot and his wife bought $12 million of stock in Wattana Capital weeks after the Headman's people were permanently and totally excused from any further investigation.

Please can you explain his role in providing a case against the convicted B2 and evidence that his financial circumstances increased substantially in the same time period. Thank you.

Thanks for asking in such a civil manner. I'm sending you a personal message, because saying what I want to say on this forum could get me (and others?) in trouble. Note: Anonymous are going to have follow-up announcements re; this botched crime investigation. It's quite likely they will mention money trail(s). This ain't over. The fat lady ain't sung yet.

[stephenterry]

Everyone needs to stop!

First step that quite a few have forgotten. What type of trial was this? By Thai Judges... In Thailand!

Are the Suspects Thai? No they are as it stands (unless they are released) from Burma or if you want to correct me, Myammar.

Now are the Victims from Thailand? No they were both British Subjects!

So if they were tried in a Thai Court, by Thai Judges. This Court was bound to abide by International Law! Thus the trail was ordained in the normal Thai fashion, fashioned by the people who thought it would, like smoke... just disappear.

I don't think any of the evidence push through the Court, addressed International Requirements.

As the B2 being found the perpetrators in the case of Murder of both Victims... The Court being presented with the fact the presented Murder weapon being a "Hoe"... Yet their DNA was not found anywhere on it! What was found was Hannah's and that of two yet unnamed individuals! DNA here was classified by the Police as of no coincidence, so it was not introduced. Why because it would have help the presiding Justice's see a huge flaw. In fact David was not killed with it he was knocked unconscious, and either by the massive trauma's his head underwent (physical blows and punctures) then dropped in the surf possibly Drowned. Not once was the major trauma to his face... Sides of his head... Even disclosed in Court. Fact being this sounds being close to an inch deep each, everyone being identical, the massive blood that was loss here was major! How much flesh does a human have covering their scull?

Now you decide if International Law was followed here...

One last point to remind everyone... Yes the B2's DNA was charged to be on or in Hannah's body. What was presented in Court was " Here Say!" No evidence was every produced or presented!

It seems that the DNA that was collected, mixed with Hannah's was from 3 males! Not just 2... But the 3rd was conveniently omitted... Why? If the sperm found on a Victim is enough to convict individuals of Murder... Who is the 3rd Male? Plus just so you understand, Hannah was alive! When she had sex! This is proven by certain chemicals to be mixed with the boys DNA!

What it seems is that in Thailand you can be Sentenced to Death on "Only" someones word...

"What was found was Hannah's and that of two yet unnamed individuals!"

One of the male profiles was from David Miller, the other was a partial profile that matched 25% of one of the Burmese's profile:

The prosecution asked Mr Waiyawuth if the third, incomplete, profile could belong to one of the suspects. He replied that only a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile.

The prosecution said: “So his participation cannot be ruled out.”

Mr Waiyawith replied: “No, but he cannot be included either.”

"DNA here was classified by the Police as of no coincidence, so it was not introduced"

The results you are talking about came from the defense retest of the hoe, so it was not part of the prosecution case.

"Why because it would have help the presiding Justice's see a huge flaw. In fact David was not killed with it he was knocked unconscious, and either by the massive trauma's his head underwent (physical blows and punctures) then dropped in the surf possibly Drowned. Not once was the major trauma to his face... Sides of his head... Even disclosed in Court"

The summary of the judgment specifically says you are wrong:

The characteristics of the wounds on the body of the first victim also matched the shape of the exhibited hoe. This circum stance therefore indicated that both defendants used the exhibited hoe as a weapon to harm the first victim, in order to facilitate committing the action of rape to the second victim

"Fact being this sounds being close to an inch deep each"

I suppose you mean wounds not sounds. Where do you get the "fact" that they are an inch deep each? From looking at poor quality photos or just repeating what online "detectives" say after looking at poor quality photos?

The conclusion of the autopsy, you know, by someone that had more to go on than a crummy photo, is that the wounds matched the shape of the hoe.

"One last point to remind everyone... Yes the B2's DNA was charged to be on or in Hannah's body. What was presented in Court was " Here Say!" No evidence was every produced or presented!"

Except for the people that did the DNA analysis testifying in court, that is not hearsay, that is first hand witness testimony which the defense did not contest.

"It seems that the DNA that was collected, mixed with Hannah's was from 3 males! Not just 2"

No, it doesn't seem like that, that's just the internet rumor machine doing its job, there was DNA from 2 males at 3 places.

"What it seems is that in Thailand you can be Sentenced to Death on "Only" someones word..."

Again, why don't you read the judgment summary to inform yourself?

The Prosecutor’s evidence both the DNA testing result, where the DNA of both defendants matched with the DNA of the offenders, and the material evidence at the crime scene as well as the circumstantial evidence both before and after the incident are relevant and valid as they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that both of the defendants were the offenders who raped the second victim, even without considering any other facts or circumstances such as the defendants’ confessions following a rrest and at the interrogation stages.

Material evidence is "not someone's word"

Material evidence that hasn't been verified, so hearsay is correct .

Not that it matters unless the defence appeal provides a dummy down guide to what constitutes acceptable DNA evidence in a court of law as the verdict indicates a lack of understanding.

[stephenterry]

Have you lot not accepted the result yet. How many years will you be at it? It's over, get on with your lives.

There is an appeals process underway, as the PM has made quite clear. Until that avenue has been exhausted, the case is still open as is the verdict.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow the money.

Who benefitted?

Panya is transferred.

Right in the middle of the biggest high profile murder case Thailand has ever seen.

Along with a bunch of scumbags moved away from the trough.

Who personally took over the case?

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Promulgated.

You know what that means? Not yet officially signed off on.

That’s right. Not previously scheduled for transfer.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Phuket-police-chief-says-regrets-names-replacement/36049#ad-image-0

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Well well, how convenient that you only used half the quote, the full quote is:

"Gen Krajang explained to the Gazette today that the transfer orders had yet to be promulgated, though they were expected to be upheld as the postings had been submitted by the Royal Thai Police for royal approval."

By the way, promulgate does not mean "Not yet officially signed off on", it means not yet publicly announced, just because something is not yet announced doesn't mean it hasn't been decided upon.

Intereresting spin but bs

Edited January 8, 2016 by StealthEnergiser

[boomerangutang]

cats,

I thought the whole front row looks disgusted...

Yes, and embarrassed. Not a resolute face amongst them.

and the back row: there's the Headman who always looks like a ton of coconuts just fell on him.

...and Somyot grinning throughout. I'd be grinning too if someone had just handed me Bt.360 million baht.

[AleG]

"What was found was Hannah's and that of two yet unnamed individuals!"

One of the male profiles was from David Miller, the other was a partial profile that matched 25% of one of the Burmese's profile:

The prosecution asked Mr Waiyawuth if the third, incomplete, profile could belong to one of the suspects. He replied that only a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile.

The prosecution said: “So his participation cannot be ruled out.”

Mr Waiyawith replied: “No, but he cannot be included either.”

"DNA here was classified by the Police as of no coincidence, so it was not introduced"

The results you are talking about came from the defense retest of the hoe, so it was not part of the prosecution case.

"Why because it would have help the presiding Justice's see a huge flaw. In fact David was not killed with it he was knocked unconscious, and either by the massive trauma's his head underwent (physical blows and punctures) then dropped in the surf possibly Drowned. Not once was the major trauma to his face... Sides of his head... Even disclosed in Court"

The summary of the judgment specifically says you are wrong:

The characteristics of the wounds on the body of the first victim also matched the shape of the exhibited hoe. This circum stance therefore indicated that both defendants used the exhibited hoe as a weapon to harm the first victim, in order to facilitate committing the action of rape to the second victim

"Fact being this sounds being close to an inch deep each"

I suppose you mean wounds not sounds. Where do you get the "fact" that they are an inch deep each? From looking at poor quality photos or just repeating what online "detectives" say after looking at poor quality photos?

The conclusion of the autopsy, you know, by someone that had more to go on than a crummy photo, is that the wounds matched the shape of the hoe.

"One last point to remind everyone... Yes the B2's DNA was charged to be on or in Hannah's body. What was presented in Court was " Here Say!" No evidence was every produced or presented!"

Except for the people that did the DNA analysis testifying in court, that is not hearsay, that is first hand witness testimony which the defense did not contest.

"It seems that the DNA that was collected, mixed with Hannah's was from 3 males! Not just 2"

No, it doesn't seem like that, that's just the internet rumor machine doing its job, there was DNA from 2 males at 3 places.

"What it seems is that in Thailand you can be Sentenced to Death on "Only" someones word..."

Again, why don't you read the judgment summary to inform yourself?

The Prosecutor’s evidence both the DNA testing result, where the DNA of both defendants matched with the DNA of the offenders, and the material evidence at the crime scene as well as the circumstantial evidence both before and after the incident are relevant and valid as they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that both of the defendants were the offenders who raped the second victim, even without considering any other facts or circumstances such as the defendants’ confessions following a rrest and at the interrogation stages.

Material evidence is "not someone's word"

Material evidence that hasn't been verified, so hearsay is correct .

Not that it matters unless the defence appeal provides a dummy down guide to what constitutes acceptable DNA evidence in a court of law as the verdict indicates a lack of understanding.

"Material evidence that hasn't been verified"

According to you, who were not at the trials.

According to the judges, that were at the trials, it was.

I'll trust the people that actually know what went on.

[boomerangutang]

Maybe this has no significance, but Nomsod's lawyer is a man who has been a close friend of NS's mother since they were youngsters. I'm not saying NS's lawyer got a heap of money for doing his job, but it wouldn't surprise me if his cumulative fees were many times more than a lawyer's regular rate for such services. Lawyers have been known to also be useful as conduits for money transfers. I'm not saying that could have happened among the Tuvichien family members, God forbid. Plus, the PM and top brass would known about any monkey business and would surely report it to proper authorities, ...wouldn't they?

[asiamaster]

Hi RWA...The date for Hannah's inquest hearing is still blank at the Norfolk Coroner's site. It was originally opened on Oct.1st.2014 and was adjourned. Completed inquests are listed.

Hannah's inquest tomorrow

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

What happened?

[asiamaster]

Some people are just here to take the pee, and don't they just love it, it speaks volumes doesn't it.

I'm not taking a pee. I want to know what happened to the inquest!

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

[StealthEnergiser]

Thanks to a poster on another forum finding this photo.

What would this Baseball bat be used for in a prison cell RTP supporters ?

Bat.jpg

Thanks to a poster on another forum finding this photo.

What would this Baseball bat be used for in a prison cell RTP defenders ?

Edited January 8, 2016 by StealthEnergiser

[AleG]

Follow the money.

Who benefitted?

Panya is transferred.

Right in the middle of the biggest high profile murder case Thailand has ever seen.

Along with a bunch of scumbags moved away from the trough.

Who personally took over the case?

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Promulgated.

You know what that means? Not yet officially signed off on.

That’s right. Not previously scheduled for transfer.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Phuket-police-chief-says-regrets-names-replacement/36049#ad-image-0

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Well well, how convenient that you only used half the quote, the full quote is:

"Gen Krajang explained to the Gazette today that the transfer orders had yet to be promulgated, though they were expected to be upheld as the postings had been submitted by the Royal Thai Police for royal approval."

By the way, promulgate does not mean "Not yet officially signed off on", it means not yet publicly announced, just because something is not yet announced doesn't mean it hasn't been decided upon.

Intereresting spin but bs

Christopher Hitchens had a way to cut the BS "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"

You are the ones asserting that Panya's promotion was all but a rouse to remove him from the investigation and change its course, no evidence to support that notion ever provided.

Dismissed.

And no, making up stories about how much someone got paid to get it done is not evidence of anything but the desperate need to create a fantasy on which beliefs that are not grounded on reality can be maintained.

Edited January 8, 2016 by AleG

[AleG]

Some people are just here to take the pee, and don't they just love it, it speaks volumes doesn't it.

I'm not taking a pee. I want to know what happened to the inquest!

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

Haven't heard of it yet.

You may want to look at this page Blind Justice Koh Tao, they are sorting out a lot of the noise surrounding this case.

[boomerangutang]

Material evidence that hasn't been verified, so hearsay is correct .

Not that it matters unless the defence appeal provides a dummy down guide to what constitutes acceptable DNA evidence in a court of law as the verdict indicates a lack of understanding.

"Material evidence that hasn't been verified"

According to you, who were not at the trials.

According to the judges, that were at the trials, it was.

I'll trust the people that actually know what went on.

Then praytell what material evidence relating to the DNA trail was presented in court? The hoe was presented, and Pontip's team found traces of DNA which weren't found by RTP authorized forensics (RTP also missed many other things, too many to list here). The judge put very tight parameters on what he would allow to be presented in court re; DNA. I could make a list of what the judge wouldn't allow, but it would be pages long. When RTP was asked to provide tangible DNA evidence (to defense and to court), but they couldn't. The best they could come up with are things like "it's lost" "it's all used up" "we have sequenced DNA, but not the original". No swabs. Hannah's clothing: lost. Was there any testing of some of the people who should be prime suspects? ....Big Ears cop?, Hoeman?, Stingray Man? either of the two island cops who like to wear blond wigs at drunk parties? Sean? MM? Any of Mon's buddies who wear weaponized shark-tooth rings? ....NO

The DNA trail was screwed-up more than Pontip let on. She was being a team player by not saying bad things about her fellow bureaucrats. She held back. Pontip wasn't allowed access to many crucial items which could have opened the case up to finding the real criminals. And Ms Taupin from Australia was kept from testifying in court due to RTP's intentional withholding of basic data.

Edited January 8, 2016 by boomerangutang

[asiamaster]

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Well well, how convenient that you only used half the quote, the full quote is:

"Gen Krajang explained to the Gazette today that the transfer orders had yet to be promulgated, though they were expected to be upheld as the postings had been submitted by the Royal Thai Police for royal approval."

By the way, promulgate does not mean "Not yet officially signed off on", it means not yet publicly announced, just because something is not yet announced doesn't mean it hasn't been decided upon.

Intereresting spin but bs

verb (used with object), promulgated, promulgating. 1. to make known by open declaration; publish; proclaim formally or put into operation (a law, decree of a court, etc.). 2. to set forth or teach publicly (a creed, doctrine, etc.).

[boomerangutang]

Hi RWA...The date for Hannah's inquest hearing is still blank at the Norfolk Coroner's site. It was originally opened on Oct.1st.2014 and was adjourned. Completed inquests are listed.

Hannah's inquest tomorrow

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

What happened?

That might have been in reference to Jan 6, 2015. That was the date designated by Brit forensics for inquest reports to be published. Just before that date, the top Brit forensic expert wimped out and said she wouldn't release findings until October 2015, MAYBE. And we're still waiting for David's autopsy from the Brits. The Thai autopsies were bungled - whether intentionally or by ineptitude, we're still trying to find out.

[MorristheRunt]

As someone has previously stated, many personal Facebook accounts of people on Koh Tao mysteriously had all the data on or around the time of the murders deleted.

With Anonymous involved I would expect that "deleted" information to be found and put back in the public domain.

I am sure it will make interesting and potentially damming reading.

This is not going to go away, in fact it's getting bigger by the hour.

I am sure that certain people on that island are getting very nervous and certain senior people in Bangkok getting angrier.

[asiamaster]

Some people are just here to take the pee, and don't they just love it, it speaks volumes doesn't it.

I'm not taking a pee. I want to know what happened to the inquest!

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

Haven't heard of it yet.

You may want to look at this page Blind Justice Koh Tao, they are sorting out a lot of the noise surrounding this case.

I have my suspicions as to why this is not happening. I believe it will only happen after the death penalty sentence is dropped -possibly after the appeal.

Speaking about pages: <deleted> CSI LA is another good one -too bad it is mostly in Thai. Shortly after the murders I was following CSI LA and also looked into his earlier "investigations" like on the MH370 and concluded that his is not a very good investigator.

[asiamaster]

Hi RWA...The date for Hannah's inquest hearing is still blank at the Norfolk Coroner's site. It was originally opened on Oct.1st.2014 and was adjourned. Completed inquests are listed.

Hannah's inquest tomorrow

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

What happened?

That might have been in reference to Jan 6, 2015. That was the date designated by Brit forensics for inquest reports to be published. Just before that date, the top Brit forensic expert wimped out and said she wouldn't release findings until October 2015, MAYBE. And we're still waiting for David's autopsy from the Brits. The Thai autopsies were bungled - whether intentionally or by ineptitude, we're still trying to find out.

Correct - ye observant one.

I'm starting to warm up to you. Not that I agree but at least you don't get too carried away by emotions.

[StealthEnergiser]

Some people are just here to take the pee, and don't they just love it, it speaks volumes doesn't it.

I'm not taking a pee. I want to know what happened to the inquest!

Mirror UK : "An inquest into the backpackers' deaths will be held in the UK on January 6"

BBC: "An inquest which opened in Norwich earlier this week heard that Ms Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, died on the beach from "severe head injuries".

A full inquest will take place on 6 January"

Haven't heard of it yet.

You may want to look at this page Blind Justice Koh Tao, they are sorting out a lot of the noise surrounding this case.

I have my suspicions as to why this is not happening. I believe it will only happen after the death penalty sentence is dropped -possibly after the appeal.

Speaking about pages: <deleted> CSI LA is another good one -too bad it is mostly in Thai. Shortly after the murders I was following CSI LA and also looked into his earlier "investigations" like on the MH370 and concluded that his is not a very good investigator.

I guess your contributing to that page also what i find amazing about that page is the amount of likes 08 in total

you only have 608, 205 to catch CSI LA

[greenchair]

If nomsod were to get arrested and sent to the court .

This is the evidence tv posters and csi would present to the judge.

He was on the island, but nobody saw him there.

There might have been video evidence that he was there, but it's probably been destroyed now.

We have no link of him to the crime because hus dna was destroyed or maybe lost or stolen.

He is protected by the mafia on the island.

He cut his hair. He did not cut his hair. We're not sure which.

He went into the monkhood for penance.

The video at his university has been doctored.

Please judge , we assure you he must be guilty. Look at all the evidence. Pathetic.

[JLCrab]

You forgot to mention that Andy Hall wrote 7JULY2015:

Ongoing engagement with the smiling, youthful faces of Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo during humanitarian visits at Koh Samui Prison and during hearings at Koh Samui Court makes it difficult for observers to reconcile the horrific crimes the two are accused of with the small, friendly and seemingly innocent people they appear to be.

http://www.mmtimes.com/index.php/opinion/15366-fight-for-justice-in-koh-tao-murder-case.html

... and the persons that everybody who knows who did it say did it must be "the seemingly guilty people they appear to be".

Edited January 8, 2016 by JLCrab

[Khun Han]

^I doubt anybody is impartial in this case. Certainly not you, me or anybody else on this forum. It raises too much emotion, even among those who pretend it doesn't. But some are open to different interpretations due to wide discrepancies in evidence: some on the B2's side; a hell of a lot more on the side of Thailand's corrupt police and Koh Tao mafia (an entity which some, rather disingenuously, claim don't exist). A small minority only want to focus on the discrepancies in the B2's side of things, and always seem anxious to quickly dismiss in any way possible the huge amount of discrepancies in the tragedy when one looks away from the B2: very strange behaviour for any logical thinker, it seems to me.

Has anyone else noticed, by the way, that the discussions are being guided toward a mistake about the date of Hannah's inquest and the meaning of the word 'promulgate'. I get the impression one-or-two posters would happily argue these two minor points for pages and pages.

[MorristheRunt]

Amy news on the appeal process?

Am I right in thinking their is a 30 day limit?

[greenchair]

Speak for yourself Khun Han.

Now, if mon was to be arrested and sent before the judge . this is the evidence that tv posters would present.

Hannah and David were last seen at his bar.

There was a small fight in the bar, but nobody that was there can recall such a fight.

The video of the fight is lost, stolen or destroyed to protect mon. We don't know where he was between the hours of 1am and 6am.

All dna that he was at the crime has been detroyed, tampered with or anyway currently non existent. A cloth from his family spa was found on the victim. He was at the crime scene when the bodies were discovered and walked into the area so he would have an excuse at to why his dna is there.

Sean McAnna said it was him .

He said, it was Sean McAnna.

He is being protected by the powerful mafia on the island so sorry judge we have no evidence at all, but we know ?? it was him.

I'm certainly not saying he was not involved, but what is being presented would not make it into a western court either.

[greenchair]

Amy news on the appeal process?

Am I right in thinking their is a 30 day limit?

No, they can extend this several times.

They must extend every 30 days, until finally the judge will not allow. They possibly will extend 3 or 4 times.

[MorristheRunt]

Amy news on the appeal process?

Am I right in thinking their is a 30 day limit?

No, they can extend this several times.

They must extend every 30 days, until finally the judge will not allow. They possibly will extend 3 or 4 times.

Ok Thank you.

Does the defence have to find new evidence to show the judge?

Or can an appeal he launched on the original evidence given in court?

[MorristheRunt]

Where is the original Hoe, as I beleive the court was shown a substitute version that was "similar"

I find it incredible that in a murder trial the alledged murder weapon was never actualy seen.

This must be unprecedented even in a Thai court.

[AleG]

Speak for yourself Khun Han.

Now, if mon was to be arrested and sent before the judge . this is the evidence that tv posters would present.

Hannah and David were last seen at his bar.

There was a small fight in the bar, but nobody that was there can recall such a fight.

The video of the fight is lost, stolen or destroyed to protect mon. We don't know where he was between the hours of 1am and 6am.

All dna that he was at the crime has been detroyed, tampered with or anyway currently non existent. A cloth from his family spa was found on the victim. He was at the crime scene when the bodies were discovered and walked into the area so he would have an excuse at to why his dna is there.

Sean McAnna said it was him .

He said, it was Sean McAnna.

He is being protected by the powerful mafia on the island so sorry judge we have no evidence at all, but we know ?? it was him.

I'm certainly not saying he was not involved, but what is being presented would not make it into a western court either.

I just want to point out that they were last seen leaving the bar:

CCTV footage indicates that Miller and Witheridge left AC Bar, where they were drinking prior to their deaths, by the back door, which led directly to Sai Ree Beach. The path between AC Bar’s back door and the crime scene also goes past the log where the two defendants were allegedly drinking beer and playing guitar.

The whole article goes into detail about what was used to reach the verdict.

[cdnvic]

Removed some personal attacks and suspended the authors.

Stop taking this so seriously. Nothing anyone does here is going to change anything. This is a place to discuss what happened, not to go on pointless personal crusades.