Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[wabothai]

At the bottom of the case are some alleged incompetent, lying and cheating corrupt and ignorant small island cops who, not uncommonly, have failed to do their job which soon resulted in a whole bunch of officials running around like chickens without a head, trampling over evidence and making up stories under incompetent and decisive leadership.

The case is running out of hand and starts to make its own life under the control of ancient Asian laws of face.

Soon it becomes so big that all competent lawyers, leadership, foreign services, and justice system are not able to direct or control the magnitude of the circus.

Result: 2 boys are found guilty and getting the death penalty, not to forget, but less important, the frustration of tens of thousands of people.

How is an appeal going to change any of this?

The case is bigger than Thailand.

[stephenterry]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

[DiscoDan]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

It was their semen inside Hannah that id'd them.

Check out todays Bangkok Post or Nation if you want the gory details.

That is the RTP's assertion that has not been substantiated or validated because no original samples exist ('used up' was the terminology presented to the court). There is even doubt, according to the Norfolk UK coroner, because indications of rape were not present on the female victim. Hannah's clothes went 'missing' so there's no corroborative evidence, as has the blond hair clutched in her hand. To my mind, that's criminal. Legally speaking, there is zero evidence to support the B2 convictions of murder. It could have been anyone present at the crime scene.

Like a gang of Thai thugs.

The Thai Autopsy never said Hannah had signs of rape, the reason they believed she had been raped is because of the semen found in her body, you really need to do a bit more research and stop spreading misinformation.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410951357&typecate=06&section

[kiwikeith]

Perhaps, hopefully, one day the true killer or killers will be apprehended, or admit the crime on his/their death bed. How will Michael Miller feel about his joy and celebration expressed after two innocent youngsters were sentenced to die. Maybe he'll just say Mai pen rai, sh*t happens!

Maybe he is that arogant and naive to say that.

I personaly can not believe that this pratt got up on camera to praise a police force and justice system that he knows nothing about.

Obviously he got the Royal treatment from Thai authorities.

I also believe that the British government would push for diplomacy and for the families to not rock the boat.

Diplomatic relations are more important than 2 little Burmese ants.

Because that is how they will be regarded unfortunate to say the least.

The Thais do not like Burmese even though they exploit them as housemaids and workers, my wife has expressed several times that she never trusts them.

I don't think that way, they seem very pleasant people to me, I have been into Burma many times.

If I am wrong and the families know something that we don't then I apologise.

I tend to go with the flow however that this whole thing is a littany of Lies and deception and that the B2 are innocent.

I think Mr Miller is for now a pratt, a misinformed biggot who should keep his nose in his trough of arrogance.

With all due respect for the families I know what grief is i have seen it and respect that you suffer so much, but please if you read this then surely you must demand answers or two innocent lives will be lost and their families will suffer as much as yours as this is an orchestrated littany of lies.

[Artisi]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

It was their semen inside Hannah that id'd them.

Check out todays Bangkok Post or Nation if you want the gory details.

Doesn't prove rape or murder...

[Renrut]

police tell the 2 suspects they need semen samples to check against semen inside the raped woman. police get samples and could have easily placed some inside the deceased woman and or put in in the haphazard "chain of custody"

Ridiculous. As far as I know, excluding intercourse, there could only be two ways to obtain semen, how do you suggest those samples would have been obtained and why would it not have been mentioned in the report of the court proceedings?

[Artisi]

Think it is safe to say that the whole investigation was flawed from the morning of day one and anything emanating from it is conjecture. How a guilty verdict can be reached is beyond all reason and tainted by the same reasoning.

[Renrut]

So who did it Perry Mason?

I think many posters know exactly who was involved - if you missed it you must be living under a rock.

Why should "many posters" here know who were the real murders? What special talent Thaivisa posters have or what privileged information are they privy to? Your statement is clearly incorrect, and if it isn't then all those posters who do know the identity of the murderers should be considered lower than anything that does live under a rock for not passing that information on.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Renrut

[beammeup]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

[stephenterry]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

It was their semen inside Hannah that id'd them.

Check out todays Bangkok Post or Nation if you want the gory details.

That is the RTP's assertion that has not been substantiated or validated because no original samples exist ('used up' was the terminology presented to the court). There is even doubt, according to the Norfolk UK coroner, because indications of rape were not present on the female victim. Hannah's clothes went 'missing' so there's no corroborative evidence, as has the blond hair clutched in her hand. To my mind, that's criminal. Legally speaking, there is zero evidence to support the B2 convictions of murder. It could have been anyone present at the crime scene.

Like a gang of Thai thugs.

The Thai Autopsy never said Hannah had signs of rape, the reason they believed she had been raped is because of the semen found in her body, you really need to do a bit more research and stop spreading misinformation.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410951357&typecate=06&section

There's no misinformation in my posts. The prosecution has asserted Hannah was raped and murdered, and as my posts above show that has not been validated (because any sperm samples have all been used up, or are fictitious, or do not belong to the B2), nor is there any evidence to link the B2 to David Miller's murder.

I would suggest you need a reality check. Do you not consider that had the RTP had ANY evidence to support a murder in the form of DNA they would have put it on the desk of the defence and told them to independently test it through Ms Pornthip? Do you not think that tests on Hannah's clothes would have been presented in court showing the B2 DNA and the same for the blond hair? Or perhaps you don't think before posting.

[wabothai]

If the family are happy with the investigation, then I have to assume that the investigation wasn't as bad as I had believed before, and that maybe the BiB got the right guys.

With all respect, what the family thinks of the outcome is irrelevant.

What is important or relevant is that 2 possibly innocent guys face the death penalty and that some evil batardes are on the loose able to commit more murder at their evil wims.

[stephenterry]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

If I said you haven't a clue what you're talking about in demonstrating what evidence is required in a court of law to evidence guilt, you would say prove it. That's what the defence have been denied. Nothing the RTP has provided has been substantiated or validated. How many times does this point need to be made before similar posters to yourself understand that no court of law should be able to convict accused without substantiated, verified, and validated definitive evidential proof.

[stephenterry]

Waste of my breath. The point I am labouring over is not whether the RTP are providing false assertions, but whatever assertions they have made should be legally proven beyond reasonable doubt. That hasn't happened, IMO.

[wabothai]

How can Thailand even think for one minute that the world does not know that those 2 people are completely innocent,I hope they never get another person to holiday on that forbidden Island,,its already riddled with corruption and cowards of the lowest form.The people who pull the strings on that Island should hang their heads in shame.

Speak for yourself. Apart from some keyboard warriors and armchair investigators everybody thinks they are guilty.....

Let us pray that you are hacked up by the real perps.

mr. Master of Asia:

Among those, as you call keyboard warriors and armchair investigators, there are statesmen, judges, lawyers, policemen and investigators and other very well informed people.

In other words HUSH !!

[beammeup]

I may not have a clue but I would think that the Families of the victims and the judges that were actually in the court room and are probably familiar with Thai law might have a clue. Yes you are wasting your breath because it is the judges that need to be convinced not you. It appears as though they were convinced

[phuketandsee]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

Everything you said is according to the RTP. Let me ask you, if you were on a jury in your home country and the only "evidence" you were provided with was what the police alleged (i.e. they provided no concrete, forensically verifiable evidence), would you convict? And convict of murder knowing a death sentence was attached and not just rape? Ask yourself honestly, would you?

Now add the RTP's reputation into the mix and the well documented <deleted>>-ups in this case?

Still seeing the forest? The RTP never presented any "trees"

[smedly]

I would like to see the BBC do a short program on this and have experts there to explain to "everyone" exactly what was wrong with the whole thing from start to finish, at least it would silence all the idiots and trolls here trying to spin this as a perfect open and shut performance by the Police/prosecution, there are experienced professional people posting here but they are largely ignored when any attempt is made to put certain things right, perhaps if they heard it from accredited professionals on a TV documentary if might just shut them up with their nonsense repetitive drivel

This travesty needs to be exposed

[smedly]

Iam dugusted, with Britains stance on this case. But of course it is called diplomacy! So now we are lickspittles to the third world.

Millers Brother obviously knows nothing about Thailand or the mafia that control Koh Samui.

I was disgusted thast the prune stood up and read out loud his arogant statement.

I do not wish to criticise them but they uinfortunately deserve it.

I t is blatently obvious to those with only half a brain that this case is a massive shame on the Thai Justice system and them.

They have been mandy pandied by Thai authorities and possibly Brittish diplomats to not rock the boat.

I would like to thank them for helping handing out a Xmas death sentence to two innocent boys and their families.

How could the B2 show remorse if they are innocent, it is beyond belief that greaveing and blind single minded thinking seems to have blinded them into making this statement.

I am disgusted and shocked and hope that these two boys can get a decent defense for an appeal.

Shame on you Mr Miller.

rather harsh, they are not experts and simply believed what was put in front of them, as I said in an earlier post, a good sit down with a professional who could explain exactly why this case and everything presented was in fact flawed, I expect some of this will be revealed when the UK autopsy report is released, we have already heard that no evidence of rape was found on the victim, that effectively blows the DNA and the motive for this evil deed out of the water, this was a violent murder staged to look like a rape with none existent DNA evidence (where is it ?) that conveniently disappeared so it could never be verified - and yes the prosecution offered some processed sample to the defence that was declined as there was no way to establish where it came from, it could easily have been a saliva sample from the accused which proves absolutely nothing, only original samples can be offered for verification and they didn't exist, I have repeated this many times on these forums and certain people refuse to accept the fact no matter how many times they are told

[evadgib]

Koh Tao: Should be red-carded/declared a total exclusion zone by the appropriate authorities with immediate effect. Within 3 months all businesses would fold which in turn would bring about an internal purge which might just result in further details coming to light.

Koh Phangan: Should be yellow/carded as above but only for 5 days per month with the full moon occurring on day 3. This would neuter the full moon party and the spin-offs and should stay in force until Glastonbury standards re all aspects relating to outdoor events are forced upon the organisers.

Samui:Should have a whistle blown in their direction as a reminder that they too are being watched, particularly at venues that are within a 500m radius of the original Burgar King on Chaweng beach road or on Soi Reggae.

It is the Archipelago that needs tourists....

Edited December 25, 2015 by evadgib

[xylophone]

Brother of victim says justice has been served

The Nation

KOH SAMUI, Thailand - A Thai court sentenced two Myanmar migrant workers to death on Thursday after convicting them of the 2014 murders of two young British tourists on a holiday island.

The battered bodies of backpackers Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were found on a beach on the island of Koh Tao in September 2014. Police said Witheridge, 23, had been raped and bludgeoned to death. Miller, 24, also suffered blows to his head.

Following weeks of pressure to solve the case, police arrested Myanmar migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun.

The verdict and sentence follow an investigation and trial that triggered allegations of police incompetence, mishandling of evidence and DNA tests and torture of the suspects.

The verdicts came after 21 days of witness hearings in a trial that began in July and ended in October.

The court said the DNA tests by investigators were carried out to acceptable standards and the DNA found on Witheridge matched that of the defendants.

The judge said there was no weight to the two men’s claims that they had been tortured.

Miller’s family flew to Thailand for the verdict. His brother, Michael, delivered a statement to reporters outside the court and said justice had been delivered, adding that the two men had shown no remorse for what they had done.

"We believe what happened today represents justice for Hannah and David," said Miller. "The Royal Thai Police conducted a thorough and methodical investigation ... evidence against the two was overwhelming."

Witheridge’s family said the trial had been distressing.

"We found listening to proceedings very challenging and we have had to endure a lot of painful and confusing information," the family said in a statement.

"We now need time, as a family, to digest the outcome of the trial and figure out the most appropriate way to tell our story."

The mother of one of the defendants broke down in tears as the judge passed sentence in the court on Samui island, close to Koh Tao.

Defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat told reporters that the defendants would file an appeal within a month.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Brother-of-victim-says-justice-has-been-served-30275595.html

-- The Nation 2015-12-24

If indeed the DNA found on Witheridge matched that of the defendants then I would conclude that they were indeed guilty as charged ! The questions here concern credibility, competence in the investigation, and integrity.

" The questions here concern credibility, competence in the investigation, and integrity".............

All three of which have been proven to be sadly lacking time and time again in the case of the BIB.

[beammeup]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

Everything you said is according to the RTP. Let me ask you, if you were on a jury in your home country and the only "evidence" you were provided with was what the police alleged (i.e. they provided no concrete, forensically verifiable evidence), would you convict? And convict of murder knowing a death sentence was attached and not just rape? Ask yourself honestly, would you?

Now add the RTP's reputation into the mix and the well documented <deleted>>-ups in this case?

Still seeing the forest? The RTP never presented any "trees"

I was not in the court room and I doubt you were either but if the evidence was inadequate don't you think the defence would have capitalized on this and fought to have the case thrown out? My understanding is that they did not contest this evidence.

[Moonsterk]

Extract from Miller statement. 'It is our opinion that the evidence against Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo is overwhelming.'

My question is what overwhelming evidence (from a legal perspective) is there to support their opinion that the B2 killed David Miller? Any of the B2's DNA on any murder weapon or on DM's body? No. Excuse me?

Oh yes, they were in the vicinity of the crime scene at some point that night. They must have killed him. That's overwhelming enough to pass beyond reasonable doubt. Total B/S and a charade from start to finish.

It was their semen inside Hannah that id'd them.

Check out todays Bangkok Post or Nation if you want the gory details.

That is the RTP's assertion that has not been substantiated or validated because no original samples exist ('used up' was the terminology presented to the court). There is even doubt, according to the Norfolk UK coroner, because indications of rape were not present on the female victim. Hannah's clothes went 'missing' so there's no corroborative evidence, as has the blond hair clutched in her hand. To my mind, that's criminal. Legally speaking, there is zero evidence to support the B2 convictions of murder. It could have been anyone present at the crime scene.

Like a gang of Thai thugs.

The Thai Autopsy never said Hannah had signs of rape, the reason they believed she had been raped is because of the semen found in her body, you really need to do a bit more research and stop spreading misinformation.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410951357&typecate=06&section

Vaginal bruising or other signs of a violently forced sexual encounter would be minimal if she were incapacitated, unconscious, already deceased, or just plain ol had consensual sex. I always thought that she and Miller had the misfortune of an extreme coitus interuptus.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Moonsterk

[berybert]

I get the underlying feeling that Michael Miller and the rest of the family of the late David Miller would have been satisfied if Winnie the Pooh had been found guilty; just so long as someone was. He observes that the two convicted men had shown no remorse for what they had done. Very difficult to show remorse for something one has not done.

How would you feel if your brother had been brutally murdered? Sympathy should be with the victims, not the convicted.

If you don't like how the Thai system works, then don't bother coming here, it ain't going to change!

And they wont change because of people like you.

Oh they got a conviction, who cares who did it they got someone. Well sunshine next time lets hope its you who get fitted up. I just hope you admit to the murder you didn't commit as save all the time, money and upset that will be caused to the families of the people you didn't murder.

There is a case coming up soon of an Aussie who got beaten to a pulp by 2 American Chinese kids, they were going to get done for GBH. But hey lets have it your way. Pay out a bit of cash and now he rather than being in the witness box is the one taking the rap.

[oldsailor35]

Iam dugusted, with Britains stance on this case. But of course it is called diplomacy! So now we are lickspittles to the third world.

Millers Brother obviously knows nothing about Thailand or the mafia that control Koh Samui.

I was disgusted thast the prune stood up and read out loud his arogant statement.

I do not wish to criticise them but they uinfortunately deserve it.

I t is blatently obvious to those with only half a brain that this case is a massive shame on the Thai Justice system and them.

They have been mandy pandied by Thai authorities and possibly Brittish diplomats to not rock the boat.

I would like to thank them for helping handing out a Xmas death sentence to two innocent boys and their families.

How could the B2 show remorse if they are innocent, it is beyond belief that greaveing and blind single minded thinking seems to have blinded them into making this statement.

I am disgusted and shocked and hope that these two boys can get a decent defense for an appeal.

Shame on you Mr Miller.

Did Millers brother who claims to have sat through the trial, understand a word of Thai ? Has he lived here in Thailand long enough to be able to genuinely say that he has greatest respect for the Thai police and their methods, i doubt many long term residents would agree with him. DELETED

Edited December 25, 2015 by seedy
troll / flaming

[berybert]

I may not have a clue but I would think that the Families of the victims and the judges that were actually in the court room and are probably familiar with Thai law might have a clue. Yes you are wasting your breath because it is the judges that need to be convinced not you. It appears as though they were convinced

The judge did not need to be convinced. The judge had only one choice to make. Follow what his pay masters told him.

[PaPiPuPePo]

 

I can attest to one thing since I spent allot of time in the south. Puket and Samui

Burmese are not very likable and have a totally different outlook on life. Than anything I have seen. I'm pretty sure they did tho crime. Just knowing what I know about zBurmese. And their temperament

I can attest to one thing since I spend a lot of time in Thailand.

Thais have a very different outlook on life compared to many westerners. As to their temperament......., well, plenty of videos out there .............

Ah because you have met a few Burmese and don't like them you are pretty sure that two young men you have never met are guilty. I live here in Thailand and have met many Burmese in Restaurants,on building sites and many that have worked on our land when needed. I find them extremely nice people.

Thai's have a very different outlook on life !!!! What on earth is that to do with justice

 

The plural of anecdote is not data. The two suspects should be/have been judged on the merits of the case not their nationality.

What the second post points out is that you can arrive at a relative likelihood for violent crime based on how someone looks and acts. I personally really doubt that if 6-8 of the various people being suspected of this, plus these two guys, were put in a lineup after being observed, they'd be amongst the likeliest suspects. Certainly some tough-looking guys are gentlemen, and some Harvery Milqetoast-looking guys are psycho killers, but only some, the opposite is likeliest.

Add to that the many question marks, some of them very serious, around many aspects of the investigation and trial are enough to give me reasonable doubt. So the court sentencing them to death, even if it's cynically expected to be commuted, is extremely disappointing to put it mildly.

The suffering of the families is beyond question, but that doesn't mean their powers of judgement are equally beyond that of others with equal or better access to evidence, many of whom, if the rest of the population domestically and internationally is to be taken into account, are very likely to have grave doubts of their own, and furthermore they are most subject to their judgement being compromised by their desire for closure (and or vengeance) far more than any of us observers.

So I'm not convinced by the chest-beating proclamations of a minority here who consider this a triumph of truth and justice. It rings hollow.

[Moonsterk]

Here's how it works in Thailand- sufficient evidence to implicate the two defendants.. Just being an illegally working Myanmar National on the beach that night then later physically intimidated into a confession is sufficient evidence

The western standard, beyond a reasonable doubt... is just not the way it works here.

[DrTuner]

My bet is they'll be dead by a convenient "accident" before any appeals are made. Loads of face needs to be buried six feet under ASAP.

[SunsetT]

the shame the legal system brings on itself is downright amazing .....this bought and paid for ruling has every employee of the so called legal system hanging their heads in shame . their next thought is , if the police can do this , am I safe ? can it happen to me or my family ? the answer is yes if the money is right . this ruling ascends beautiful Thailand on the scale of human rights violations . north Korea and Thailand are about in the same place as far as law , crime , punishment , slavery and corruption go . but I love this country , its people , and culture . the power's that be , ehhh..... not so much .

No Thai will hang their head in shame as they do not feel remorse or guilt. They do not feel remorse or guilt when they do something bad because they do not possess a conscience. They do not have a conscience, as most of us do in the West, because it is not naturally innate. It is a genetically inherited cultural 'meme' which in our evolution we have aquired mainly from Christianity but which is absent from Buddhism and Thai culture:

Common secular or scientific views regard the capacity for conscience as probably genetically determined, with its subject probably learned or imprinted (like language) as part of a culture.^{[4]........from Wikipedia.}

[NCFC]

I do hope that the victims families are reading this thread.

They will think that justice has been served, but more than likely to innocent people.

Actually, regardless of what we on this thread might THINK, the family has had more access to evidence and police than any of us here. None of us on this thread have been in the courtroom.

While I've been of the opinion that they got the wrong guys, who are any of us here to say that the family is mistaken. They have followed this case much closer than ANY of us here.

I dare sy the family are mistaken - and I think it's not only me.
If they know so much more and KNOW that the scapegoats are guilty they should let everybody know - and understand.
Then the case could be closed.

Well I think their statement did exactly what you are asking for, doesn't it? The Millars statement couldn't have been clearer

So their statement lets everybody understand why they KNOW that the scapegoats are guilty?

The Millars are not on trial