Phuket property glut?

[NamKangMan]

In my opinion, the main reasons for the Phuket property glut are:

1) Oversupply - they have built too many condo's / apartments / houses which will eventually effect the property market by lowering prices, or, properties sitting derelict and fall into disrepair..

2) Yes, people are "bailing out" of Phuket. There is a higher cost of living here, failing critical infrastructure, lack of good Governance, destruction of the environment, terrible traffic, rising crime, drug abuse, no public transport, more violence particularly gun crime, bureaucracy surrounding visas, corrupt officials and police, greedy Thai landlords etc - all now having an effect on the numbers, and baht, on Phuket.

3) The Chinese are the majority of tourists to Phuket now. They will not buy property / bars / cafes / restaurants and take a Thai bar girl for their wife, as did westerners, just a few years ago, so, there are less potential buyers of everything on Phuket to advertise and market to. The Chinese will not buy a property to holiday in or retire to, on Phuket.

4) The collapse of the Russian Ruble due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and subsequent sanctions. This decimated the Russian market.

5) Aging expat population. The old timers are passing on and not being replaced by the next generation of retiring western expats on Phuket.

This is not just a Phuket problem, it's the whole country....... all accounts stated above.

Friends who used to holiday on Phuket, now holiday in Pattaya. About six expats I know, two of whom had businesses on Phuket, now live in Pattaya.

Since when has Pattaya lured tourists and expats away from Phuket????

These people haven't abandoned Thailand, just Phuket.

Whilst in very broad terms you could say the issues I address in my post are across Thailand, they are all a lot worse on Phuket.

[Renter]

Mr Wonderful says ................"those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand"

well whoda thunk it...... I'm hard pressed to think of any country that doesn't welcome $$$

[stevenl]

In my opinion, the main reasons for the Phuket property glut are:

1) Oversupply - they have built too many condo's / apartments / houses which will eventually effect the property market by lowering prices, or, properties sitting derelict and fall into disrepair..

2) Yes, people are "bailing out" of Phuket. There is a higher cost of living here, failing critical infrastructure, lack of good Governance, destruction of the environment, terrible traffic, rising crime, drug abuse, no public transport, more violence particularly gun crime, bureaucracy surrounding visas, corrupt officials and police, greedy Thai landlords etc - all now having an effect on the numbers, and baht, on Phuket.

3) The Chinese are the majority of tourists to Phuket now. They will not buy property / bars / cafes / restaurants and take a Thai bar girl for their wife, as did westerners, just a few years ago, so, there are less potential buyers of everything on Phuket to advertise and market to. The Chinese will not buy a property to holiday in or retire to, on Phuket.

4) The collapse of the Russian Ruble due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and subsequent sanctions. This decimated the Russian market.

5) Aging expat population. The old timers are passing on and not being replaced by the next generation of retiring western expats on Phuket.

This is not just a Phuket problem, it's the whole country....... all accounts stated above.

Friends who used to holiday on Phuket, now holiday in Pattaya. About six expats I know, two of whom had businesses on Phuket, now live in Pattaya.

Since when has Pattaya lured tourists and expats away from Phuket????

These people haven't abandoned Thailand, just Phuket.

Whilst in very broad terms you could say the issues I address in my post are across Thailand, they are all a lot worse on Phuket.

People come and go, that's the way it is.

[LivinginKata]

Mr Wonderful says ................"those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand"

well whoda thunk it...... I'm hard pressed to think of any country that doesn't welcome $$$

But only for 30 day with a 30 extension ...

Whatever the temp visa then after 90 days then GET OUT of Thailand ... BYE ..

Sure there are retirement one year extension but get it wrong and it's still BYE ...

I'll never forget 10 years ago when Immigration changed the 'money in bank seeding' rule to 3 months and I did not know on time - Immigration Officer just bluntly/happily told me the solution was to leave Thailand ... still annoys me to this day.

Edited January 5, 2016 by LivinginKata

[Mr Wonderful]

Mr Wonderful says ................"those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand"

well whoda thunk it...... I'm hard pressed to think of any country that doesn't welcome $$$

So what's the problem then? We were not looking or hoping for hobos buying real estate were we?

The problem with the real estate market is scam deals on land and house holdings, ultra cheap disgustingly low standard built studio condos in Pattaya and ill thought out developments by independent builders. Stick to quality and you'll be alright.

[NamKangMan]

I have invested in the order of 200M baht and I am not nervous. I buy at the best price possible, either presale to secure the best units or leftover units in the buildings I am in after they are completed. Some buildings take a few years to mature. Only occasionally do I touch a house with land and then on my wife's name and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way). Foreign quota freehold condos in luxury buildings are solid here. You kind of get what you pay for but even a 4M baht condo built by a reputable developer can avoid your rental bill and give you some capital appreciation, if you are lucky. For cashflow returns, luxury condos are hard to beat here.

"and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way)" - Thailand has many "or any other ways."

Probably another reason for lack of buyers here is political instability and rule of law.

All your properties could be gone tomorrow, with a stroke of a pen in Bangkok.

Or, they simply change the visa rules so most "owners" can't live in the own properties here.

Like LIK said, he had a lot of offshore rig pigs staying long term. A simple visa crackdown and they are gone. What about the rig pigs in similar circumstances who bought a property here - they can no longer live in their own property. Money wasted on property in Thailand.

That's how easy and fast things can change here.

That's scare mongering. The US cracking down on offshore accounts would be far more likely than Thailand kicking all workers out of the country. Unless this place turns into Noerh Korea. But hen again, Germany could be invaded by IS and USA could be ruled by a xenophobic megalomaniac. In basic terms Thailabd has had pretty stable politics (for outsiders) and the visa crackdowns is on foreigners who don't want to get a work permit, don't want to invest and don't want to retire or marry. Those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand.

Is it really "scare mongering" if buying property in a country that can't even guarantee it's land title certificates?

Corrupt Land Office staff were making and selling land titles for corrupt payments. They were even making land titles for National Parks.

Who really knows if they have a good root of title here? What if they ever clean that mess up?

The list is endless of the things that can relieve a foreigner of their land here.

Thus, the risk is great.

Why bother?

[Mr Wonderful]

I have invested in the order of 200M baht and I am not nervous. I buy at the best price possible, either presale to secure the best units or leftover units in the buildings I am in after they are completed. Some buildings take a few years to mature. Only occasionally do I touch a house with land and then on my wife's name and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way). Foreign quota freehold condos in luxury buildings are solid here. You kind of get what you pay for but even a 4M baht condo built by a reputable developer can avoid your rental bill and give you some capital appreciation, if you are lucky. For cashflow returns, luxury condos are hard to beat here.

"and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way)" - Thailand has many "or any other ways."

Probably another reason for lack of buyers here is political instability and rule of law.

All your properties could be gone tomorrow, with a stroke of a pen in Bangkok.

Or, they simply change the visa rules so most "owners" can't live in the own properties here.

Like LIK said, he had a lot of offshore rig pigs staying long term. A simple visa crackdown and they are gone. What about the rig pigs in similar circumstances who bought a property here - they can no longer live in their own property. Money wasted on property in Thailand.

That's how easy and fast things can change here.

That's scare mongering. The US cracking down on offshore accounts would be far more likely than Thailand kicking all workers out of the country. Unless this place turns into Noerh Korea. But hen again, Germany could be invaded by IS and USA could be ruled by a xenophobic megalomaniac. In basic terms Thailabd has had pretty stable politics (for outsiders) and the visa crackdowns is on foreigners who don't want to get a work permit, don't want to invest and don't want to retire or marry. Those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand.

Is it really "scare mongering" if buying property in a country that can't even guarantee it's land title certificates?

Corrupt Land Office staff were making and selling land titles for corrupt payments. They were even making land titles for National Parks.

Who really knows if they have a good root of title here? What if they ever clean that mess up?

The list is endless of the things that can relieve a foreigner of their land here.

Thus, the risk is great.

Why bother?

What part of "foreigners cannot own land in Thailand" don't you understand? What difference does it make if you have a good or bad title on land you can't legally own. Stay away from land and house deals. Lease the land. Own the house. Or buy a condo. Or get a wife you can trust.

[Renter]

exactly NKMan----without enforced rule of law you as an investor have absolutely zero

the ones urging here must be trying to convince themselves because they will never convince me or other prudent investors

[Renter]

LOL a wife you can trust......yeah I've heard it all before -----SHE"S DIFFERENT

[Mr Wonderful]

LOL a wife you can trust......yeah I've heard it all before -----SHE"S DIFFERENT

Dunno. Anything can happen. But the last 11 years have been alright.

[NamKangMan]

In my opinion, the main reasons for the Phuket property glut are:

1) Oversupply - they have built too many condo's / apartments / houses which will eventually effect the property market by lowering prices, or, properties sitting derelict and fall into disrepair..

2) Yes, people are "bailing out" of Phuket. There is a higher cost of living here, failing critical infrastructure, lack of good Governance, destruction of the environment, terrible traffic, rising crime, drug abuse, no public transport, more violence particularly gun crime, bureaucracy surrounding visas, corrupt officials and police, greedy Thai landlords etc - all now having an effect on the numbers, and baht, on Phuket.

3) The Chinese are the majority of tourists to Phuket now. They will not buy property / bars / cafes / restaurants and take a Thai bar girl for their wife, as did westerners, just a few years ago, so, there are less potential buyers of everything on Phuket to advertise and market to. The Chinese will not buy a property to holiday in or retire to, on Phuket.

4) The collapse of the Russian Ruble due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and subsequent sanctions. This decimated the Russian market.

5) Aging expat population. The old timers are passing on and not being replaced by the next generation of retiring western expats on Phuket.

This is not just a Phuket problem, it's the whole country....... all accounts stated above.

Friends who used to holiday on Phuket, now holiday in Pattaya. About six expats I know, two of whom had businesses on Phuket, now live in Pattaya.

Since when has Pattaya lured tourists and expats away from Phuket????

These people haven't abandoned Thailand, just Phuket.

Whilst in very broad terms you could say the issues I address in my post are across Thailand, they are all a lot worse on Phuket.

People come and go, that's the way it is.

How does a place attract so many tourists, who later turn into expats, and then repel the exact same people?

[Renter]

this thread is getting so absurd...my stomach is hurting I'm laughing so much

[LivinginKata]

LOL a wife you can trust......yeah I've heard it all before -----SHE"S DIFFERENT

There are a few trustworthy Thai wives ... but very few ... maybe 5% ... hopefully I have one (20 years on) and I know other happy couples ... so let's not paint all Thai ladies with that same colour ...

[Renter]

UP2U

[NamKangMan]

I have invested in the order of 200M baht and I am not nervous. I buy at the best price possible, either presale to secure the best units or leftover units in the buildings I am in after they are completed. Some buildings take a few years to mature. Only occasionally do I touch a house with land and then on my wife's name and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way). Foreign quota freehold condos in luxury buildings are solid here. You kind of get what you pay for but even a 4M baht condo built by a reputable developer can avoid your rental bill and give you some capital appreciation, if you are lucky. For cashflow returns, luxury condos are hard to beat here.

"and never more than I would have to lose sleep over losing it (to her, a land scam or any other way)" - Thailand has many "or any other ways."

Probably another reason for lack of buyers here is political instability and rule of law.

All your properties could be gone tomorrow, with a stroke of a pen in Bangkok.

Or, they simply change the visa rules so most "owners" can't live in the own properties here.

Like LIK said, he had a lot of offshore rig pigs staying long term. A simple visa crackdown and they are gone. What about the rig pigs in similar circumstances who bought a property here - they can no longer live in their own property. Money wasted on property in Thailand.

That's how easy and fast things can change here.

That's scare mongering. The US cracking down on offshore accounts would be far more likely than Thailand kicking all workers out of the country. Unless this place turns into Noerh Korea. But hen again, Germany could be invaded by IS and USA could be ruled by a xenophobic megalomaniac. In basic terms Thailabd has had pretty stable politics (for outsiders) and the visa crackdowns is on foreigners who don't want to get a work permit, don't want to invest and don't want to retire or marry. Those who have funds or income are welcome in Thailand.

Is it really "scare mongering" if buying property in a country that can't even guarantee it's land title certificates?

Corrupt Land Office staff were making and selling land titles for corrupt payments. They were even making land titles for National Parks.

Who really knows if they have a good root of title here? What if they ever clean that mess up?

The list is endless of the things that can relieve a foreigner of their land here.

Thus, the risk is great.

Why bother?

What part of "foreigners cannot own land in Thailand" don't you understand? What difference does it make if you have a good or bad title on land you can't legally own. Stay away from land and house deals. Lease the land. Own the house. Or buy a condo. Or get a wife you can trust.

"Lease the land. Own the house. Or buy a condo. Or get a wife you can trust." - I'll pass on all of these and just rent the property I want, where I want it, when I want it and leave all the risks and headaches and depreciation to the "owners."

[LivinginKata]

People come and go, that's the way it is.

How does a place attract so many tourists, who later turn into expats, and then repel the exact same people?

Mmmm ... lets thinks ... nice beaches, good weather, beautiful women, easy lifestyle, cheaper than back home ...

Yeep ... that's good enough for me ...

[NamKangMan]

<snip>

Like LIK said, he had a lot of offshore rig pigs staying long term. A simple visa crackdown and they are gone. What about the rig pigs in similar circumstances who bought a property here - they can no longer live in their own property. Money wasted on property in Thailand.

That's how easy and fast things can change here.

Not so fast NKM ... if have some sort of lease title to ann apartment then the 'owner' can apply for a non-immigrant 'O' visa. At least that's the way I did it 20 years ago before over 50 (actually it was 60 back then) or married to a Thai national.

I more worry about civil conflict here in Thailand, like we had about 8 years ago with the reds and yellows. That was when I stopped investing in Thailand and started taking profits out. I was ready back then to bail out of Thailand. It eventually worked out Ok. But even now we are under miltary rule ... benign for now ...

I wasn't talking about you LIK.

I was talking about one of the rig pigs, like you mentioned, if they had bought a property here, under any method of "ownership" and I use that term losely.

He would now not be able to live in his own property here, simply due to the change of visa laws.

So, now he has a property he can't live in, and can't sell, unless at a very substantial loss.

All because of a change to visa laws / enforcement.

It doesn't exactly inspire foreign investment from wealthy under 50 year olds.

Now, I know what many members over 50 are probably thinking, "Who cares. I'm over 50." Let's say the Thai Government / Military raise the 800,000 baht retirement funds to say, 1.5 million baht.

How many over 50's would that kick out of Thailand come retirement visa renewal time?

"Why would they do that" you may ask. How about to capitalize Thai banks and to get rid of the expats with no real money to spend here.

I can see the headline now, "Thailand targets high end retirees."

Can ANY member guarantee readers it will NEVER happen?

[NamKangMan]

People come and go, that's the way it is.

How does a place attract so many tourists, who later turn into expats, and then repel the exact same people?

Mmmm ... lets thinks ... nice beaches, good weather, beautiful women, easy lifestyle, cheaper than back home ...

Yeep ... that's good enough for me ...

That's what attracts them here - so what repels the same people away from here, to of all places, Pattaya for example, and Cambodia?

[LivinginKata]

Not so fast NKM ... if have some sort of lease title to ann apartment then the 'owner' can apply for a non-immigrant 'O' visa. At least that's the way I did it 20 years ago before over 50 (actually it was 60 back then) or married to a Thai national.

<snip>

I wasn't talking about you LIK.

I was talking about one of the rig pigs, like you mentioned, if they had bought a property here, under any method of "ownership" and I use that term losely.

He would now not be able to live in his own property here, simply due to the change of visa laws.

So, now he has a property he can't live in, and can't sell, unless at a very substantial loss.

All because of a change to visa laws / enforcement.

It doesn't exactly inspire foreign investment from wealthy under 50 year olds.

Now, I know what many members over 50 are probably thinking, "Who cares. I'm over 50." Let's say the Thai Government / Military raise the 800,000 baht retirement funds to say, 1.5 million baht.

How many over 50's would that kick out of Thailand come retirement visa renewal time?

"Why would they do that" you may ask. How about to capitalize Thai banks and to get rid of the expats with no real money to spend here.

I can see the headline now, "Thailand targets high end retirees."

Can ANY member guarantee readers it will NEVER happen?

Read again NKM - I stated that if a foreigner has a 30 year lease title or condo title then he/she can apply for a non Immigrant visa and would not be subject to the 30 day entry r even tourist regulations.

You are talking about those on a rental agreement.

As for the retirement visa/extension. They doubled from 400,000 baht to 800,000 baht quite a few years ago, no problem. I fully expect they will double again soon. Plenty 'retired' don't even now have the 800,000 in t6he bank and just pay a 20,000 baht 'fee' to have this taken care of by 'someone' in authority.

[NamKangMan]

Not so fast NKM ... if have some sort of lease title to ann apartment then the 'owner' can apply for a non-immigrant 'O' visa. At least that's the way I did it 20 years ago before over 50 (actually it was 60 back then) or married to a Thai national.

<snip>

I wasn't talking about you LIK.

I was talking about one of the rig pigs, like you mentioned, if they had bought a property here, under any method of "ownership" and I use that term losely.

He would now not be able to live in his own property here, simply due to the change of visa laws.

So, now he has a property he can't live in, and can't sell, unless at a very substantial loss.

All because of a change to visa laws / enforcement.

It doesn't exactly inspire foreign investment from wealthy under 50 year olds.

Now, I know what many members over 50 are probably thinking, "Who cares. I'm over 50." Let's say the Thai Government / Military raise the 800,000 baht retirement funds to say, 1.5 million baht.

How many over 50's would that kick out of Thailand come retirement visa renewal time?

"Why would they do that" you may ask. How about to capitalize Thai banks and to get rid of the expats with no real money to spend here.

I can see the headline now, "Thailand targets high end retirees."

Can ANY member guarantee readers it will NEVER happen?

Read again NKM - I stated that if a foreigner has a 30 year lease title or condo title then he/she can apply for a non Immigrant visa and would not be subject to the 30 day entry r even tourist regulations.

You are talking about those on a rental agreement.

As for the retirement visa/extension. They doubled from 400,000 baht to 800,000 baht quite a few years ago, no problem. I fully expect they will double again soon. Plenty 'retired' don't even now have the 800,000 in t6he bank and just pay a 20,000 baht 'fee' to have this taken care of by 'someone' in authority.

I must be missing something LIK.

Are you saying that if someone under 50 years of age buy a property in Nakon Nowhere for 100,000 baht, with no intention of living in / on it, not that Thai authorities would know this, they can automatically acquire a non-immigrant "O" 1 year visa?

First I've heard of it.

[LivinginKata]

I must be missing something LIK.

Are you saying that if someone under 50 years of age buy a property in Nakon Nowhere for 100,000 baht, with no intention of living in / on it, not that Thai authorities would know this, they can automatically acquire a non-immigrant "O" 1 year visa?

First I've heard of it.

I'm surprised at you NKM ... you are usually quite sharp.

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying.

I bought a place on Nanai Rd with a 30 year lease many moons ago. I applied for a one year multi entry non-immigrant visa (in Australia) ... no problem. I used that 'visa' method for a few years until I married my Thai wife and did the married man route.

I just assume that type of visa is still available. As in a Non-O if have title for a property ... 30 year lease or condo title.

Others please comment - confirm or not ...

[eisfeld]

There is no visa for owning a property or having a lease. Unless we're talking about a investor visa which comes at a 10M THB price.

Many years ago it was much easier to get a Non-O for all kinds of reasons including having a Thai GF. Not anymore.

[KarenBravo]

Those people that were using retirement extensions when the requirement was to show 400,000 Bt are still only showing 400,000 Bt.

It's called "Grand-fathering".

If you are now on the extension and showing 800,000 Bt, that is all you will ever have to show as it will also be "Grand-fathered".......and no NKM, I have no proof that they will grand-father the next rise, but, going on past precedent, they will.

Ok, you can now use your fevered imagination to come up with some more negative scenarios......

[LivinginKata]

There is no visa for owning a property or having a lease. Unless we're talking about a investor visa which comes at a 10M THB price.

Many years ago it was much easier to get a Non-O for all kinds of reasons including having a Thai GF. Not anymore.

Oh well ... I am shot down in flames ,,, but I received a one year non-O on the basis of my 30 year lease about 19 years ago. Maybe all changed now ...

[Mr Wonderful]

So basically we have the cheap Charlies complaining that they can't stay in TH without income or substantial savings. Why would TH want them? Get a job here. Or retire with 800k baht in the bank. What's the big deal about keeping 800k? Thailand can't afford to carry broke foreigners.

[NamKangMan]

Those people that were using retirement extensions when the requirement was to show 400,000 Bt are still only showing 400,000 Bt.

It's called "Grand-fathering".

If you are now on the extension and showing 800,000 Bt, that is all you will ever have to show as it will also be "Grand-fathered".......and no NKM, I have no proof that they will grand-father the next rise, but, going on past precedent, they will.

Ok, you can now use your fevered imagination to come up with some more negative scenarios......

So, it would be an impossibility for the Thai Government to contemplate, and a totally "negative scenario" if they decided to stop "Grand- Fathering" would it?

[LivinginKata]

Those people that were using retirement extensions when the requirement was to show 400,000 Bt are still only showing 400,000 Bt.

It's called "Grand-fathering".

If you are now on the extension and showing 800,000 Bt, that is all you will ever have to show as it will also be "Grand-fathered".......and no NKM, I have no proof that they will grand-father the next rise, but, going on past precedent, they will.

Ok, you can now use your fevered imagination to come up with some more negative scenarios......

So, it would be an impossibility for the Thai Government to contemplate, and a totally "negative scenario" if they decided to stop "Grand- Fathering" would it?

Unlikey - always honored the 'grand fathering' forever.

Getting a long way from the topic NKM

Edited January 5, 2016 by LivinginKata

[NamKangMan]

There is no visa for owning a property or having a lease. Unless we're talking about a investor visa which comes at a 10M THB price.

Many years ago it was much easier to get a Non-O for all kinds of reasons including having a Thai GF. Not anymore.

Oh well ... I am shot down in flames ,,, but I received a one year non-O on the basis of my 30 year lease about 19 years ago. Maybe all changed now ...

Like I mentioned, you would basically have every visa runner, like myself, take a 30 year lease on 1 rai of jungle land in Issan, just for 1 year non-immigrant O visa.

I thought you were "usually quite sharp" LIK.

[NamKangMan]

Those people that were using retirement extensions when the requirement was to show 400,000 Bt are still only showing 400,000 Bt.

It's called "Grand-fathering".

If you are now on the extension and showing 800,000 Bt, that is all you will ever have to show as it will also be "Grand-fathered".......and no NKM, I have no proof that they will grand-father the next rise, but, going on past precedent, they will.

Ok, you can now use your fevered imagination to come up with some more negative scenarios......

So, it would be an impossibility for the Thai Government to contemplate, and a totally "negative scenario" if they decided to stop "Grand- Fathering" would it?

Unlikey - always honored the 'grand fathering' forever.

Getting a long way from the topic NKM

The point I am trying to make is, a foreigner can buy a property here, but if the Thai Government changes the visa rules, some may not be able to live in their own property.

Ok, so, back on topic.

Is there a property glut on Phuket or not?

If there is, why is there?

If there is not, why isn't there?

Edited January 5, 2016 by NamKangMan

[LivinginKata]

Ok, so, back on topic.

Is there a property glut on Phuket or not?

If there is, why is there?

If there is not, why isn't there?

Yes there is due to over development. I like to think of it as the cake is getting much bigger, but the slices are getting much smaller.