Suggestions for a small, semi-powerful scooter with disc brakes?

[jimi]

Hi,

I'm thinking of replacing my Yamaha Fino scooter, and I have been looking around a bit online, checking out the different models. But I can't seem to find that special one, that tick all the right boxes. But maybe there are good brands out there that I don't really know about (I only have checked out Yamaha, Honda and Vespa), or maybe some of the features I am looking for can be achived with custom modifications, so I thought I should come here and try and get some input from you guys.

My usage is 90% inner city traffic here in Chiang Mai, with the occational longer ride (but still most likely below 2-3 hours). What I am looking for is basically this:

Must have:

• Overall good quality
  
• The look of the Yamaha Grand Filano Supremo 2015 (the black/red one looks really nice) or similar style (there are some nice Vespas out there too)
  
• Upright sitting position, ie traditional scooter style
  
• Good size for medium sized farang
  
• Good size for traffic jams, ie being able to zig zag and squeeze thrue narrow gaps between stand still cars at slow speed
  
• Light enough so it handles easily even at really low speeds (think walking speed), and moving it by hand (for example when parking in a narrow place)
  
• Light and small enough so that my short thai girlfriend can use it once in a while
  
• Powerful engine (for a scooter, that is), around 150 cc
  
• Automatic gear
  
• Handles good even at higher speeds (for scooter, ie 80-100km/h)
  
• Good disc brakes in both front and back, and preferably no CBS/LBS
  
• Wider tires than the regular scooter tires, and preferably larger diameter wheels, for better traction and stability
  

Nice to have:

• ABS brakes
  
• Open foot platform
  
• Large gas tank
  
• Kick start option, if for some reason the electric starter isn't working
  

The bikes that have been the most interesting for me so far have been Yamaha Grand Filano Supremo, Yamaha N-Max, Honda PCX150 and Vespa Sprint/LX 150. But none have all the important requirements.

What would you guys suggest that I do? What bike would you say tick the most of my boxes? Or is it easy (and safe and legal) to buy a bike and have it modified to meet most of my criteria, without costing a fortune? My total budget is about 100.000 baht, maybe a little more (but that would have to be more or less a perfect bike then). And I'm looking for a new one, not a used one. Also I need one that doesn't take months to deliver.

Regards

/Jimi

[Eclipse]

Yamaha N-Max sounds about right. 80,000 Baht

[Gsxrnz]

The only thing that comes to mind when you say semi-powerful with disc brakes, is a Harley. Bit on the big side though.

[jimi]

Yamaha N-Max sounds about right. 80,000 Baht

Yeah, except for the weight. It weighs amlost 1/3 more than my corrent one. I am worried it is too heavy. But of course I cannot know for sure before I test one. Will try it on monday I think.

The only thing that comes to mind when you say semi-powerful with disc brakes, is a Harley. Bit on the big side though.

Try riding like this with a Harley:

lol. Just kidding, I'm not driving like that. But the traffic situation in this video shows in a way what I deal with when I ride. I just ride slower and safer than that guy, but still the same narrow passages between cars (but slow speed, as I said). Can't do that with a big bike

[BSJ]

N-Max looks to be the best choice. I ride a 3 year old PCX150 which is OK.....but on looking at the N-Max it was obviously better. If I hadn't crashed the PU and had to payout 140k baht for repairs I would have bought one by now!

[ttakata]

I would go with 2 Grand Filanos or one Vespa because the other 2 are more suited for a laid back chopper posture which is not as nimble.

You can put your feet in a lower position on the NMax and PCX but the central hump forces the feet outwards.

The Filano has the gastank under the feet but I think the Vespa's is under the seat which eats up storage and reduces handling.

Filano for the win.

[guzzi850m2]

+1 for N-Max despite I haven't tried one but only base my opinion on reports here on TV.

I also have a pcx150 mk1 (2012) and I like it and will keep it in 2016, I think.

OP, it looks like you just can't get what you are looking for but have to compromise, N-Max is the only one with abs and slightly more powerful than pcx150.

[jimi]

I would go with 2 Grand Filanos or one Vespa because the other 2 are more suited for a laid back chopper posture which is not as nimble.

You can put your feet in a lower position on the NMax and PCX but the central hump forces the feet outwards.

The Filano has the gastank under the feet but I think the Vespa's is under the seat which eats up storage and reduces handling.

Filano for the win.

Yeah, Filano seems quite nice. But sad with the drum brake in the back. That's the main thing keeping me from choosing it at the moment. But maybe it can be converted to a disc brake by the Yamaha workshop? Or am I just being silly, wanting disc brakes in the rear on a scooter?

+1 for N-Max despite I haven't tried one but only base my opinion on reports here on TV.

I also have a pcx150 mk1 (2012) and I like it and will keep it in 2016, I think.

OP, it looks like you just can't get what you are looking for but have to compromise, N-Max is the only one with abs and slightly more powerful than pcx150.

Yeah, it really seems that the bike I'm looking for just doesn't exist. I just don't understand why not. Surely people would like a styling slim scooter with extra power and disc brakes, right? I can't be the only one

The ABS is not important for me, but good brakes are.

[Issanman]

Honda SH150 may be worth considering.

[VocalNeal]

I'd like an SH150 but would have to ride it and NMax before deciding. Sadly no SH150's at auction yet so owners must be keeping them.

But NMax does have ABS

Yeah, Filano seems quite nice. But sad with the drum brake in the back. That's the main thing keeping me from choosing it at the moment. But maybe it can be converted to a disc brake by the Yamaha workshop? Or am I just being silly, wanting disc brakes in the rear on a scooter?

Why the fixation with a rear disc brake? Properly set up drums can work just as well.

[canthai55]

Why the fixation with a rear disc brake? Properly set up drums can work just as well.

Every bike I owned would lock up the rear wheel if applied hard. No advantage to a disc - well, maybe looks.

And I don't think the SH is still being sold in Thailand. Not on the AP Honda website.

[Namplik]

The bike exists jimi, its the Yamaha NMAX 155 cc.

[Henryford]

Only one decent choice, the NMAX.

[jimi]

styling02-sh150i_small.jpgHonda SH150 may be worth considering.

Wow, I can't belive I missed that one! Seems really nice. More or less ticks all my boxes, as far as I can see. Well one disadvantage with that one is that it is an older model, thus lacking things like Honda Smart Technology and Enhanced Smart Power. Also, some more colors would be nice. And the price could be a bit lower, considering these factors... But definately one I will take a closer look at.

[papa al]

YNSX125

[jimi]

Why the fixation with a rear disc brake? Properly set up drums can work just as well.

Are you saying that disc brakes are not better than drum brakes? I'm no expert (far from it), but most forum postings I found on this matter seemed to lean towards disc brakes being better. They mention things like heat dispertion, a higher risk of warpage in drum brakes, and better stopping power and less likelyhood of brake fade with disc brakes. FOr me, this basically seems like a no brainer. One should simply select the best brakes one can find, within reasonable price.

Also, I have always been a bit annoyed by the lack in rear braking power of most scooters I have tried, even new ones. As far as I know, all of them have had a rear drum brake, and for me I suspect that the drum brake could be part of the reason for that (although, like I said, I'm no expert, so only guessing here). Basically, the ideal would be breaking power comparable to a mountainbike with front and back disc brakes. Those things can stop on a dime, more or less. Sure, it's the front brake that has the more stopping power, because of the transfer of weight transfer, but considering the road conditions and other factors, it can sometimes be really helpful to have better stopping power in the back as well. And it can of course be dangerous to apply too much brake power on the front brakes, for example if going at reasonably high speed down an incline, and suddenly needing to stop quickly.

[JDGRUEN]

Yamaha N-Max sounds about right. 80,000 Baht

I second that suggestion as I bought one almost 3 months ago and it is performing just Grand ... There is a TVF thread on this motor scooter/cycle... Superb - what seems like combi-braking... and ABS... Great acceleration and plenty of quick stopping power... yet nimble enough to get around in traffic and smooth riding for a 25 kilometer joint ... 80,000 was drive away price with payment for license plate, green book and insurance... base was 78,300 or about. I feel fortunate to have made the right decision as I am not wealthy enough to try - buy and sell for a loss to try the next one ....

Edited January 4, 2016 by JDGRUEN

[jimi]

Why the fixation with a rear disc brake? Properly set up drums can work just as well.

Every bike I owned would lock up the rear wheel if applied hard. No advantage to a disc - well, maybe looks.

And I don't think the SH is still being sold in Thailand. Not on the AP Honda website.

See my previous post about disc brakes vs drum brakes. And maybe you could explain why more expensive and more high power scooters/motorbikes have disc breaks front and back, if you truly consider them not having any advantage apart from the looks?

If the break locks if applied hard enough, that means that I can apply just a little bit less force and would get more or less optimal breaking. How can that be a bad thing?

Or are you saying that the drum break applies just the right braking power, "right at the edge" of locking the brakes, when applied 100%? That would be really nice, and they might even label it ABS brakes then... but I have never tried a scooter with such a fantastic drum brake. Instead, the drum brakes I have tried seem to have much room for improvement in braking power.

I'm not trying to sound like a snotty expert or something here, I am truely an novice when it comes to scooter/motorcycle technology. I just think that the information out there about disc brakes and drum brakes indicates that disc brakes truly are the better brakes.

Regarding the availabillity of the Honda SH150i. I haven't had time to go to (or even call) any vendor yet, but hopefully will be able to tomorrow or the day after that. But at least I can see it on the website:

http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-product-hondash150i-specification.ashx

Maybe you were looking at some english version of the website? (Now I use google translate to be able to read the specifications...)

[jimi]

YNSX125

I'm assuming you mean the Honda NSX 125? It failes way to many of my requirements, so it is not a candidate I'm affraid. I mean, it's not even a scooter!

It's as if I were asking for a nice Itallian restaurant, and you gave me a recommendation for a spanish Tapas restaurant.

[jimi]

The bike exists jimi, its the Yamaha NMAX 155 cc.

Only one decent choice, the NMAX.

Well, the N-MAX sure is among the top 5 candidates, but it is in no way near the perfect bike I was hoping to find

It seems to be a bit bulkier than I want (when looking at it through the window of a shop closed for new year), and a bit heavier (30% heavier than what I am used too). Although I don't know how that actually effects the handling, have to try it first. And I'm still not really conviced that I like how it looks. But I guess that also will be figured out once I see it in front of me, and can really look at it from all angles.

But one thing that I more or less can tell right away would be an annoyance for me if I bought the N-Max, is the lack of a step through (open foot) platform. I reguarly use it for easy storage, and not all of that stuff I would have been able to store in the under seat storage of the N-Max. For example the PC screen I bought a few weeks ago, it was a breeze to store on the step through platform. Sure, a step through is not on my must-have list, but I just know it will be annoying for me when I find that I have something to transport that would have been much easier to transport with that platform. Also, I might feel uncomfortable not being able to put my feet closer to the center of the bike like I'm used to. hmm...

[canthai55]

See my previous post about disc brakes vs drum brakes. And maybe you could explain why more expensive and more high power scooters/motorbikes have disc breaks front and back, if you truly consider them not having any advantage apart from the looks?

If a drum brake can lock the rear wheel, how is a more powerful brake going to do you any good. Sure - I will give you the long downhill descent thing, where a disc will dissipate heat better, but if brakes are used properly, drum brake is perfectly adequate in the same situation.

Why do newer bikes have them - style.

Link below is AP Honda Thailand. Click the arrow left or right side to change bike models. No SH

http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-home.ashx

Edited January 4, 2016 by canthai55

[VocalNeal]

Why the fixation with a rear disc brake? Properly set up drums can work just as well.

Every bike I owned would lock up the rear wheel if applied hard. No advantage to a disc - well, maybe looks.

And I don't think the SH is still being sold in Thailand. Not on the AP Honda website.

See my previous post about disc brakes vs drum brakes. And maybe you could explain why more expensive and more high power scooters/motorbikes have disc breaks front and back, if you truly consider them not having any advantage apart from the looks?

If the break locks if applied hard enough, that means that I can apply just a little bit less force and would get more or less optimal breaking. How can that be a bad thing?

Or are you saying that the drum break applies just the right braking power, "right at the edge" of locking the brakes, when applied 100%? That would be really nice, and they might even label it ABS brakes then... but I have never tried a scooter with such a fantastic drum brake. Instead, the drum brakes I have tried seem to have much room for improvement in braking power.

I'm not trying to sound like a snotty expert or something here, I am truely an novice when it comes to scooter/motorcycle technology. I just think that the information out there about disc brakes and drum brakes indicates that disc brakes truly are the better brakes.

Regarding the availabillity of the Honda SH150i. I haven't had time to go to (or even call) any vendor yet, but hopefully will be able to tomorrow or the day after that. But at least I can see it on the website:

http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-product-hondash150i-specification.ashx

Maybe you were looking at some english version of the website? (Now I use google translate to be able to read the specifications...)

Disc brakes dissipate heat better so are better down long hills

Disc brakes are self adjusting

Drum brakes are cheaper to maintain long term

As for braking efficiency if the wheel locks all the braking is gone, so if you can apply maximum force and get to a point where the wheel doesn't quite lock it is bteer. Weight transfers fortwards under braking so there is less need for rear braking efficiency as they will tend to lock anyway

why more expensive and more high power scooters/motorbikes have disc breaks front and back,

Because they are more expensive?

On a low powered scooter there is no real need for rear disc it is mostly cosmetic and perceived quality based. However I suspect a disc brake may be easier to mechanically modulate which is why the Nmax with ABS has a disc.

If you want to use the requirement for a rear disc your purchasing lode stone then Ok but if you like the Grand Filano and the only thing stopping you is its lack of disc then maybe think again as the drum will be good enough to stop the bike.

Honda still has SH150i on their site but it does have linked brakes http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-product-hondash150i.ashx

G/F will prefer NMax?

[Don Mega]

I'd got the SH150 then have it turbocharged.

[jimi]

Yamaha N-Max sounds about right. 80,000 Baht

I second that suggestion as I bought one almost 3 months ago and it is performing just Grand ... There is a TVF thread on this motor scooter/cycle... Superb - what seems like combi-braking... and ABS... Great acceleration and plenty of quick stopping power... yet nimble enough to get around in traffic and smooth riding for a 25 kilometer joint ... 80,000 was drive away price with payment for license plate, green book and insurance... base was 78,300 or about. I feel fortunate to have made the right decision as I am not wealthy enough to try - buy and sell for a loss to try the next one ....

P_20151110_125644.jpg

P_20151110_125705_1_p.jpg

P_20151121_093611.jpg

Thanks for the input, and for the nice photos!

One question, now that you have used it for some time. How would you say it handles in tight traffic jam situations? Can you compare it to the average scooter that most thais drive? Is it just as easy to squeze thrue even when it is really, really tight? I mean, so tight so that you have to twist the handle bar in different directions to get past, and having to be careful not scratching the paint of the side against the curb when passing stand still cars. In these situations, just an extra inch in width at the base, or the handle bar, might make the difference between being able to get past the congestion, or having to wait it out and stand there in all the fumes.

Also, the extra weight compared to the normal scooter (as I said before, about 1/3 extra weight), does it make it more difficult when manuvering it during parking in a tight motorbike parking space? Or when driving at slow speed? Because the main thing I noticed the first time I gave someone a ride on a scooter, was how much more difficult it was to handle the extra weight when driving really slow in tight traffic jam.

[Gary A]

A rear disc brake on a small bike is a waste. I think they put them on for looks. More than 70 percent of your braking comes from the front brake. A drum rear brake has plenty of braking power because the rear wheel has very little traction. The bike's weight shifts forward when braking. If you are using gears to slow down you will notice that you will get a little tire chirp every time you down shift. There is benefit from ABS at the rear and that's likely why high performance bikes use a rear disc. ABS needs hydraulic brakes to work. The rear brake is useful at low speeds and when on stones, gravel or sand. Using the front brake on a sand covered road can put you down quickly. ABS is great if you are willing to spend the extra money, then you will have disc brakes front and back.

[jimi]

If a drum brake can lock the rear wheel, how is a more powerful brake going to do you any good.

First of all, I hardly ever have experienced a locked rear wheel when breaking full force on a scooter, on dry tarmac. Instead it feels as if the break power stops at maybe 70% or so, if 100% represents right-on-the-edge-to-locking. It just feels sluggish and not really responsive. Even on new scooters, at least as far as I can remember. And that fits perfectly with the information I have read about drum brakes vs disc brakes. Drum brakes doesn't seem to be as powerful, and doesn't give the driver as exact precision when applying the brakes. So even if the drum brake can achieve a locked rear wheel, it might not be able to apply precision force to make it stay "on the edge" so to speak. When speaking in percent again, the disc brake might give the driver the option to apply additional force in 1% increments, while the drum brake might only provide 5% or 10% increments, so to speak.

Again... I'm speaking layman terms here, since I am a novice, but I think you understand my theory (no claims, just theory).

Sure - I will give you the long downhill descent thing, where a disc will dissipate heat better, but if brakes are used properly, drum brake is perfectly adequate in the same situation.

But after enough time riding in those conditions, surely the lesser heat dissipation in the drum brake would eventually lead to worse braking performance, right?

Link below is AP Honda Thailand. Click the arrow left or right side to change bike models. No SH

http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-home.ashx

I'm sorry, but it is there.

Click "A.T", then click on the 7th "navigation dot" (out of a total of 13) below the four-in-a-row lineup in the middle of the page, and then you should see it.

[Eclipse]

I am just an old codger who has been pottering around on Waves and Clicks for 10 years.

I mostly stayed local as it scared the hell out of me to go into town(Khon Kaen).

Since getting my N Max I go every where. It just seems so safe.

Maybe the size and weight.

Plus you have some oomph to get out of trouble.

BTW a Thai lady friend drove it the over day without any problems

Edited January 4, 2016 by Eclipse

[Gary A]

 

If a drum brake can lock the rear wheel, how is a more powerful brake going to do you any good.

First of all, I hardly ever have experienced a locked rear wheel when breaking full force on a scooter, on dry tarmac. Instead it feels as if the break power stops at maybe 70% or so, if 100% represents right-on-the-edge-to-locking. It just feels sluggish and not really responsive. Even on new scooters, at least as far as I can remember. And that fits perfectly with the information I have read about drum brakes vs disc brakes. Drum brakes doesn't seem to be as powerful, and doesn't give the driver as exact precision when applying the brakes. So even if the drum brake can achieve a locked rear wheel, it might not be able to apply precision force to make it stay "on the edge" so to speak. When speaking in percent again, the disc brake might give the driver the option to apply additional force in 1% increments, while the drum brake might only provide 5% or 10% increments, so to speak.

Again... I'm speaking layman terms here, since I am a novice, but I think you understand my theory (no claims, just theory).

Sure - I will give you the long downhill descent thing, where a disc will dissipate heat better, but if brakes are used properly, drum brake is perfectly adequate in the same situation.

But after enough time riding in those conditions, surely the lesser heat dissipation in the drum brake would eventually lead to worse braking performance, right?

Link below is AP Honda Thailand. Click the arrow left or right side to change bike models. No SH

http://www.aphonda.co.th/2015/aphonda-home.ashx

I'm sorry, but it is there.

Click "A.T", then click on the 7th "navigation dot" (out of a total of 13) below the four-in-a-row lineup in the middle of the page, and then you should see it.

 

If your back wheel doesn't lock up easily, that means you are no using the front brake at all.

[macknife]

Just get the bike you and your gf like. The rear brake shouldn't be an issue. Scooters usually don't come with a rear disc brake because they don't go fast enough.

You feel that the rear drum brake isn't that responsive because it's not supposed to be. It's just to help you slow down not to actually stop.

In an emergency stop almost all your braking is on the front the rear is barely relevant.

The NMax has a rear disc because it has to for the ABS to work, but in an emergency stop the rear brake has a negligible effect.

So stop making the the rear brake an issue and get what you like.

As far as Gfs go, she will get used to whatever you buy and will not worry about the weight. I have a hard time keeping my 45kg Gf from stealing my Ninja to go and see her mates.

[jimi]

Disc brakes dissipate heat better so are better down long hills

Disc brakes are self adjusting

Thanks, these are two good selling points for rear disc brakes

Because they are more expensive?

Surely they don't put them on *because* they are expensive, they put them on *despite* making the bike more expensive because disc brakes add some *benefit* to the bike.

On a low powered scooter there is no real need for rear disc it is mostly cosmetic and perceived quality based.

What is a low powered scooter? In my eyes, 50 to 125 cc would be low power, 150 to 200 medium powered, and 250+ would be high powered. If you consider the Yamaha N-Max to be low powered, does that mean that you think that their technicians made a misstake having a rear disc brake on it?

However I suspect a disc brake may be easier to mechanically modulate which is why the Nmax with ABS has a disc.

I'm sorry, I'm not technically savvy enough to know exactly what you talk about now, but it seems you are saying that the rear disc brake (with ABS) on the Nmax gives *some* sort of benefit compared to a drum brake.