Armed takeover of building in Oregon puts feds in tough spot

[webfact]

Armed takeover of building in Oregon puts feds in tough spot
By GENE JOHNSON

SEATTLE (AP) — The armed takeover of a remote Oregon nature preserve has put federal officials in a tough spot: Should they confront the occupiers or lay off, given that the public faces no imminent harm?

The former risks bloodshed. The latter risks emboldening anti-government groups and possibly giving the impression that authorities treat white militia members with more deference than, say, young black men in the city.

A look at some of the key issues surrounding the federal response to the takeover at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge south of Burns, Oregon:


RACE AND RELIGION

About 20 people are occupying the refuge in the frigid high desert to protest the prison sentences of two ranchers who set fire to federal land. They want the property turned over to local authorities so people can use it free of U.S. oversight.

President Barack Obama said Monday that federal authorities were monitoring the situation, but agents made no apparent moves to surround the property or confront the group — an approach that reflected lessons learned from bloody standoffs at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas, in the early 1990s.

But it also prompted complaints from many observers who suggested the government's response would have been swifter and more severe had the occupants been Muslim or other minorities.

"Every time something like this occurs, we use the phrase, 'If a Muslim had done it,' and we imagine the completely different response that would follow," said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. "You don't have to stretch your imagination to come up with a different scenario if these weren't white Christians."

"There seems to be somewhat of a reluctance to think white people are as dangerous as people of color," said Heidi Beirich, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups.

But other observers suggested that from a tactical standpoint, the government's cautious response would make sense no matter who was holed up in the government building in the reserve.

"These guys are out in the middle of nowhere, and they haven't threatened anybody that I know of," said Jim Glennon, a longtime police commander who now owns the Illinois-based law enforcement training organization Calibre Press. "There's no hurry. If there's not an immediate threat to anyone's life, why create a situation where there would be?"

Instead, he and others expected the FBI to use a negotiator to try to persuade the group to leave peacefully.

___

ANTI-GOVERNMENT MOMENTUM

Among those leading the occupiers was Ammon Bundy, the son of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy. The elder Bundy made headlines in 2014, when hundreds of armed anti-government activists rallied to his defense after federal authorities started seizing his cattle over more than $1 million in unpaid grazing fees.

In Cliven Bundy's case, federal authorities and Las Vegas police retreated and let him have his cattle back rather than escalate the confrontation. While officials have said that federal authorities are investigating, no one has been charged with a crime, even though authorities said some of those involved had trained their weapons on police. The FBI declined to comment Monday.

The Southern Poverty Law Center was quick to say that the failure to hold anyone accountable was a major victory that emboldened anti-government groups around the country and led directly to the situation in Oregon.

"They got away with something pretty serious," Beirich said. "You have a bunch of emboldened people who think weapons can be used to settle their disputes with the federal government."

Michael Barkun, an emeritus professor at Syracuse University who has studied extremist groups, agreed that not confronting the Oregon group could embolden others. On the other hand, however, some extremists crave such a fight.

"You can say, well, a negotiated settlement emboldens them," he said. "But by the same token it deprives them of a confrontation that some of them want."

___

TERRORISM OR TRESPASSING?

Some people took their criticisms a step further, arguing that if a radical Muslim group had seized the property, many would call it terrorism. But John McKay, the former top federal prosecutor in western Washington and now a professor of national security law at Seattle University, did not see it that way. The federal definition of terrorism requires an act "dangerous to human life" that appears intended to intimidate civilians or influence government policy.

"I'm not sure what the terrorism is; I don't see a violent act," he said. "They're trespassing and trying to change policy."

Wayne State University law professor Peter J. Henning said their actions more closely meet the definition of sedition, which includes conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government, oppose it by force or seize its property. Sedition charges are typically reserved for the most severe cases, he noted, including that of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, the "blind Muslim cleric" behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

In 2010, the Justice Department brought sedition charges against members of the Hutaree militia in Michigan, alleging that they planned to kill a police officer and then attack those who attended the funeral. A judge dismissed those charges, saying the evidence did not prove a concrete plan to oppose the authority of the federal government by force.

If the FBI can resolve the occupation peacefully, Henning said, he did not expect that the Justice Department would bring sedition charges, but rather charges of trespassing or possibly destruction of federal property, if that applied.

"This is clearly a trespass: They're not allowed to be in there," he said. "That's an easy violation to prove."

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-01-05

[thaibeachlovers]

It's a lose lose situation for the feds. However, if they have another Waco, it will only create more enemies of the feds and they've got plenty of them- don't need more. Obviously not terrorism- to say it is is being silly. No one has been hurt, nothing blown up.

Best option is to wait them out. If it makes the feds look weak, that's better than killing a lot of people. The protestors obviously want a violent confrontation.

[CaptHaddock]

These people are welfare recipients who want more benefits from the govt which rents them federal land (our land, that is) at a loss.

If they were black they would already have been massacred like the Black Panthers. And everyone would agree it was terrorism.

The feds should do nothing and let the cold drive them out. They should take advantage of the event by arresting and trying Cliven Bundy in the meanwhile.

[Somtamnication]

Here comes another Ruby Ridge.... Sigh.

[Seastallion]

Nah, it's a no-brainer.

Leave them to their discomfort and wait until they get bored. Deprive them of the publicity they desire. Go as far as disabling the closest cell tower so that they have no comms.

If it was a well-planned thing by smart people....then think about tactics. But these chaps are plainly publicity-seeking morons. The place is so remote, they in fact hold no cards.

[FritsSikkink]

they are terrorists and should be bombed like the other ones

[NeverSure]

They should wait them out. It's 21 degrees there right now (-6 C) and the forecast is for 16 tonight (-9 C). Cut off their power if they have any and cut off all access to supplies including food. Stand by to rescue any who come out for help.

This is awesome open country but it's a high elevation. It's what we call high desert. It's a great time to be in where it's warm in the winter.

If you didn't see my other link, take a look at the real "Out West" of the US - Malheur County, Oregon where this is.

Cheers.

Edited January 5, 2016 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

They aren't terrorists. They are idiots looking for attention. I'd be surprised if any of them had the guts to shoot anyone and I hope they don't.

Terrorist talk by committing acts of terror such as bombing or shooting. These guys are "on strike" and being verbal about their complaints. Their complaints are invalid as they are supporting criminals who started a major fire which could have killed people and destroyed a lot of property. The people they support have been in prison for their deeds and may go back. They deserve prison.

I don't know why this is such big news. They are wannabes and attention whores.

Cheers.

[pedro01]

why does CAIR have an opinion here?

They talk about what the reaction would be if a Muslim had done it.

We all know the Muslims would have gone on a killing spree first.

Dumb comparison.

[bark]

Nah, it's a no-brainer.

Leave them to their discomfort and wait until they get bored. Deprive them of the publicity they desire. Go as far as disabling the closest cell tower so that they have no comms.

If it was a well-planned thing by smart people....then think about tactics. But these chaps are plainly publicity-seeking morons. The place is so remote, they in fact hold no cards.

They have guns and bombs. The Army should go in and arrest them all.

[Saharat]

Really want to know the what and why?
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

[Seastallion]

Nah, it's a no-brainer.

Leave them to their discomfort and wait until they get bored. Deprive them of the publicity they desire. Go as far as disabling the closest cell tower so that they have no comms.

If it was a well-planned thing by smart people....then think about tactics. But these chaps are plainly publicity-seeking morons. The place is so remote, they in fact hold no cards.

They have guns and bombs. The Army should go in and arrest them all.

Bombs?? Are you sure? Reference, please.

No matter....they are in the middle of nowhere...nobody will get hurt except themselves, if the Feds cut them off (lay siege) from all that they need, ie publicity, power, communications and food.

[johnnynmonic]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

Thanks for the backstory. It's really tragic how these guy's rights have been trampled on.

[Saharat]

This problem is due to the HUGE private land grab that the Feds have been implementing for years.... Now, citizens are fighting back, against this abuse of power. If you are so inclined to know the facts, which most of you knee-jerkers aren't, here is a plethora of information that may help in increasing your knowledge of this American subject/dilemma.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1JzuQf4DMU

[Seastallion]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

That's one heck of a sorry story. If accurate, the Hammonds need to fight. But the Bundy way is not the way.

[stevenl]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

That's one heck of a sorry story. If accurate, the Hammonds need to fight. But the Bundy way is not the way.

From that website:

"Fear is at the core of liberalism, and love/trust is at the core of conservatism. Liberalism is about control. Conservatism is about self-empowerment." etc.

Looking at that website I get the strong impression this is not an unbiased report.

[Seastallion]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

That's one heck of a sorry story. If accurate, the Hammonds need to fight. But the Bundy way is not the way.

From that website:

"Fear is at the core of liberalism, and love/trust is at the core of conservatism. Liberalism is about control. Conservatism is about self-empowerment." etc.

Looking at that website I get the strong impression this is not an unbiased report.

Agree. I had unease too, that's why I qualified, "If accurate".

I expect much is based on truth and simple fact, though.

[Saharat]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

That's one heck of a sorry story. If accurate, the Hammonds need to fight. But the Bundy way is not the way.

From that website:

"Fear is at the core of liberalism, and love/trust is at the core of conservatism. Liberalism is about control. Conservatism is about self-empowerment." etc.

Looking at that website I get the strong impression this is not an unbiased report.

Yes, it is a, obviously, Conservative leaning organisation, but facts remain facts, regardless. I would suggest investigation by one's self, these days, as the responsible coarse of action regarding the uncovering of factual information. This is rather factual as far as I have investigated, but I have been keeping up with this type of Federal abuse of power for some time now....

[bunnydrops]

I used to work for a 12000 acre ranch a little west of there and know of some of the conflict in that area. I am not going to refute what was said in those links because I do not know all the facts in this case except to say that there is a lot left out. Cattle do a lot of damage to the land, especially to water ways. In that area it takes acres of land to sustain each head of cattle. In trying to preserve the land, BLM for one has limited the number of head of cattle that can graze on public land, and in some cases closed off areas that have been over grazed,trampled and eroded. Damage around waterways is a big problem. BLM does fence off water sources due to the damage caused by cattle--but ranchers do the same to protect their own.

In the area I was in the water problem is acute. Water rights that were given to the ranchers years ago (part of an enticement to get them to move there in the first place) are being cut since water is needed to keep enough water in the rivers for salmon spawning. The ranchers have forcible cut chains and re-routed water in the past (didn't get this coverage though).

As for the jury. Each side gets to throw out a number. I've sat on one and was thrown out of two. I really would like to know what the question was that was asked about "rancher's culture" that got them removed.

[geriatrickid]

Here comes another Ruby Ridge.... Sigh.

Why sigh? The criminals of Ruby Ridge sealed their own fates. They got what they deserved.

These nutters should be dealt with by snipers.

[arjunadawn]

The US federal system has been out of control for a long time; it is consistently rated as the greatest problem Americans have, for a long time. Does not make what these guys are doing right but even a fool would want to know why his shoelaces always came undone. Its because they are not tied properly! The Federal government should not be owning land. I really don't care if, right or wrong, that's the way its been. Its extra constitutional. The premise that the feds can own land for garrison, etc, in the constitution and than have so much of the US actually owned by the feds is outrageous. No, there is no escape clause for national monuments, etc. Those belong to the States, period. Thus the whole slippery slope argument of the Federal system sucking the life out of everyone. It does not matter if it were not this it would be another thing for clowns like this. It is not another thing.

People are sick of this crap. Still, Seastallion and others are correct- let 'em sit there alone until they miss the game boys and arm chairs. Block the area from resupply or press as a restricted crime scene area. Jam any transmissions. Arrest them when they leave. This is basic negotiation 101. Or, use the opportunity to force those who think like this out of the woodwork nationally. Smoke em out by blowing up these guys. Then you can have pretense to go after all manner of political opposition, and get guns. yea, do that Obama!

[MrTee]

Nuke 'em!

[slapout]

Some of the federal gophers "employees" in charge of vast areas of land and resources in the western states are clueless

in proper land/resource management. They are apparently schooled at sometime in their career in the way of how not to get along with those helping in conservation efforts.

The need for the present efforts have in large part been a result of government personel who display a ''god complex'' when dealing with the public and hail/ thunderstorm treatment of the envirenment and its resultant decline.

The chances of a win / win situation will not be entertained by government as they have unlimited resources at their disposal, thus another family whose grandfathers made the area liviable and substainable will be kicked to the way side.

[Seastallion]

I used to work for a 12000 acre ranch a little west of there and know of some of the conflict in that area. I am not going to refute what was said in those links because I do not know all the facts in this case except to say that there is a lot left out. Cattle do a lot of damage to the land, especially to water ways. In that area it takes acres of land to sustain each head of cattle. In trying to preserve the land, BLM for one has limited the number of head of cattle that can graze on public land, and in some cases closed off areas that have been over grazed,trampled and eroded. Damage around waterways is a big problem. BLM does fence off water sources due to the damage caused by cattle--but ranchers do the same to protect their own.

In the area I was in the water problem is acute. Water rights that were given to the ranchers years ago (part of an enticement to get them to move there in the first place) are being cut since water is needed to keep enough water in the rivers for salmon spawning. The ranchers have forcible cut chains and re-routed water in the past (didn't get this coverage though).

As for the jury. Each side gets to throw out a number. I've sat on one and was thrown out of two. I really would like to know what the question was that was asked about "rancher's culture" that got them removed.

Thank you for that....I felt that there was more to it than the link provided so far.

It's messy.

But Bundy is still a dork.

[khunken]

Nuke 'em!

Thanks for making me laugh.

[JHolmesJr]

Airdrop some skunks in there.

[MrTee]

Airdrop some skunks in there.

Feed them?

better to starve them out - or nuke 'em!

[bangon04]

Gosh they do sound like a "well-organised militia", don't they. If they have enough guns and ammunition, they should be allowed to do exactly as they please......

[FritsSikkink]

The US federal system has been out of control for a long time; it is consistently rated as the greatest problem Americans have, for a long time. Does not make what these guys are doing right but even a fool would want to know why his shoelaces always came undone. Its because they are not tied properly! The Federal government should not be owning land. I really don't care if, right or wrong, that's the way its been. Its extra constitutional. The premise that the feds can own land for garrison, etc, in the constitution and than have so much of the US actually owned by the feds is outrageous. No, there is no escape clause for national monuments, etc. Those belong to the States, period. Thus the whole slippery slope argument of the Federal system sucking the life out of everyone. It does not matter if it were not this it would be another thing for clowns like this. It is not another thing.

People are sick of this crap. Still, Seastallion and others are correct- let 'em sit there alone until they miss the game boys and arm chairs. Block the area from resupply or press as a restricted crime scene area. Jam any transmissions. Arrest them when they leave. This is basic negotiation 101. Or, use the opportunity to force those who think like this out of the woodwork nationally. Smoke em out by blowing up these guys. Then you can have pretense to go after all manner of political opposition, and get guns. yea, do that Obama!

everybody nicked the land from the natives anyhow.

[thaibeachlovers]

Really want to know the what and why?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

Now we know why the founding fathers included the bit about the government not taking people's weapons away. It's situations like this when little hitlers have taken power in the government bureaucracy that the citizen has to defend his freedom or become slaves to the federal government.

Given that this time there are ex servicemen holed up at the refuge I bet the feds won't be too keen to try and kill them all, as they like it better when the opponents are inexperienced and easily killed without presenting a threat to themselves.