Do You Teach ESL or EFL?

[Fookhaht]

A surprising number of westerners teaching English in Thailand have not the slightest clue. The last time I asked this of western teaching colleague who had been teaching here for over three years, I just received a blank look.

Many western teachers think it's their god-given mandate, in the name of teaching English, to stuff their western culture down the throats of willing baby-bird like Thai students. Of course the students love it. They love western music, food, movies and fashion; and this is their chance to rub shoulders with a real live westerner. It's also the chance for a narcissist western teacher to be a real rock star--for as long as the honeymoon lasts, or until they run out of videos.

But what lasting benefits are the students getting--most of whom may never leave their Thai homeland, and a few of whom may run into a few westerners (if they're brave enough to communicate)?

A teacher needs to think long and hard about their approach to teaching English with the long-term benefits of their students in mind. Is their job to prepare students for travel/study/working in the West? Seriously, how many of them will ever realise that pipe-dream? Or is the foreign teacher's job to build skills for Thais to communicate effectively in a second language within their own real contexts and probable future?

The above questions really boil down to the two pedagogical approaches. Do you know clearly where you fit, and why?

ESL: English as a Second language
EFL: English as a Foreign language

These are "Oranges and Apples," as the teaching methods and cultural contexts are very different. Basically, the separate approaches are defined as:
EFL = the teaching of English to foreign students learning within their home countries
ESL = the teaching of English to immigrants learning in their newly-adopted country

I taught ESL in the States for six years, but had to learn quite a few new methods of instruction as well as a major paradigm/cultural shift when I got to Thailand where I teach EFL.

Examples:

EFL assignment in Thailand: give a demonstration speech on the five methods of doing a "wai" (physical expression of greeting in Thailand).

ESL assignment in the USA: give a demonstration speech how how to properly shake hands. Show us the slang words that can be used upon greeting ("whassup," "how ya' doin'?" "hey," "whatcha' doing?" etc.)

In the below EFL and ESL assignments, the range of vocabulary and expressions in English are quite different.

For EFL in Thailand, I require students to explain the meaning of Thai proverbs in English.

For ESL in the USA, I required students to explain American folk tales (Paul Bunyan, Johnny Appleseed, etc.)

Another example: A lesson on learning the vocabulary for vegetables and fruit at the store/market would be quite different between ESL and EFL Thai students. ESL Thai students in the States are surprised to learn that you have to ask for the TYPE of apple at a USA supermarket. In Thailand, an apple is generally just an apple. Hardly any Thai in Nakhorn Nowhere Market looks for Granny Apples to make their apple pie.

The presentation styles are quite different too; for example, most of the hand/arm physical gestures of a Western public speaker are considered uncouth to most Thais. Thais express themselves much more with their voice and facial expressions.

In retrospect:

I consider my job here, in teaching English, isn't to turn these students into Western clones (ESL approach), but into Thai people who can communicate skilfully within their own contexts--and most of those contexts will not be in London or Los Angeles. Many, however, may have a chance to explain their craft or profession to an ASEAN visitor, whose only common method of communication will be in the English language.



Disclaimer:
My apologies to English teachers in Thailand who consider the understanding of these EFL/ESL differences as second nature. The "choir" I'm preaching to are the clueless--sadly, many of whom I have met, over a dozen years, within my profession in Thailand.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Fookhaht

[lostinisaan]

Many western teachers think it's their god-given mandate, in the name of teaching English, to stuff their western culture down the throats of willing baby-bird like Thai students. Of course the students love it. They love western music, food, movies and fashion; and this is their chance to rub shoulders with a real live westerner

"Rub shoulders with a real live westerner." God, a lot of them are more than happy when they don't see them. Buddha, help us all.

"For ESL in the USA, I required students to explain American folk tales (Ronald Reagan, George W. Bullshit etc.)"

Edited January 28, 2016 by lostinisaan

[nottocus]

Dunno….don't care. As long as the pay check goes in.

[nottocus]

BTW…how long have you been teaching in Thailand OP?

[Johnniey]

I've lasted for 30 years without knowing the difference. But in 1985 in Bangkok all one had to do to get a teaching position was to be white and own a shirt and tie.

[KhaoNiaw]

Agree with some of your points but it's really not 'apples and oranges' and the way the terminology is used is often not as clearly defined as you're making it here. You're also just talking about the context, presentation and content but say nothing about the processes of language acquisition where the distinction is irrelevant.

Having said that, I agree with your main argument that for most Thais, it would be most useful to learn English for the Thai context. But you're too hard on teachers when the whole TEFL/TESL 'industry' with all its lucrative coursebooks and materials pushes this version of English language teaching. Many teachers just have to follow the courses they're given. There are also teachers preparing students to go and study or work abroad.

Edited January 28, 2016 by KhaoNiaw

[Slip]

Those of us who do know the difference between efl and esl might still take issue with some of the assumptions you make.

[Minnie the Minx]

It's referred to as EAL, here anyway.

Sad when you are perceived as a white face and an expert on all things Western. EAL in a good international school takes its pound of flesh, no six week bit of paper and no experience, the real deal where you are a teacher not a face. Language centres a different story.

You see many committed teachers but lacking system support, you see many 'teachers' in it for the paycheck and no responsibility or duty of care towards their charges. You see many students lapping up the 'entertainer' and hate the teacher who makes them work. The unmotivated students who need a keg of dynamite to get them going.

I'm not a teacher just from observation.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Minnie the Minx

[Fookhaht]

BTW…how long have you been teaching in Thailand OP?

Read the opening post again.

[Fookhaht]

Those of us who do know the difference between efl and esl might still take issue with some of the assumptions you make.

OK, you've baited us: and those are........?

[Minnie the Minx]

It's EAL. Don't fall for naked hooks.

[DogNo1]

Well, when I studied French and German in college, learning about the culture associated with the language was expected. Many students who study English as a Foreign Language may indeed end up using it only in an instuumental way but I don't think that precludes teaching American or British culture along with the language. Freinds who studied Japanese at the same university were required to read Japanese novels and learn about the Japanese way of thinking. I think that language without its accompanying culture is like bones without any meat on them.

[nottocus]

BTW…how long have you been teaching in Thailand OP?

Read the opening post again.

Ok…got it.

So…you have taught English for 12 years in Thailand and you refer to others as clueless?

[cgphuket]

It's referred to as EAL, here anyway.

Sad when you are perceived as a white face and an expert on all things Western. EAL in a good international school takes its pound of flesh, no six week bit of paper and no experience, the real deal where you are a teacher not a face. Language centres a different story.

You see many committed teachers but lacking system support, you see many 'teachers' in it for the paycheck and no responsibility or duty of care towards their charges. You see many students lapping up the 'entertainer' and hate the teacher who makes them work. The unmotivated students who need a keg of dynamite to get them going.

I'm not a teacher just from observation.

True that some international schools have high standards for their teachers (at least on paper, if they have the degrees they still be drunken psychos), but I know of some international schools that staff Westerners with no college degree and only a 1-month training certificate and pass them off as teachers because they need bodies to fill slots and they work cheap. Some international schools in the North do this.

[zeichen]

"Disclaimer:
My apologies to English teachers in Thailand who consider the understanding of these EFL/ESL differences as second nature. The "choir" I'm preaching to are the clueless--sadly, many of whom I have met, over a dozen years, within my profession in Thailand. "

The ironic thing for me is that you seem to miss the difference in them as well. It isn't about what topics you would choose but actually how you would approach the material and what skills to focus on. In ESL grammar correction isn't the forefront as they are exposed to native speakers all day long. You also might focus on more situational language.

In EFL you need to be more supportive and nurturing to build confidence and place more importance on exploration of the language. Native language interference will be uniform as well in and EFL classroom so it is easier to address.

It is good to include local culture into your lessons as a way to get them to relate what they know which builds a cognitive link. But stating that your entire lessons and activities need to be just Thai focused is silly.

All lessons should have a frame of reference that relates to their students. So activities about jobs, marriage, family don't really work for kids that are 10. so yes, in a sense you are right that lessons need to reflect the needs of the student, but that isn't an EFL/ESL breakdown that is designing a curriculum that matches your students. Many of us are given text books and topics that are required. We have to adjust them to match our classes.

I love how you pidgeon hole the future of Thai people and what needs they have. Frankly, 90% don't need spoken English period if they are just going to live their normal lives here. But exposing people to different cultures, skills and having them enjoy themselves learning something does help them. More kids are studying abroad these days and with an increasing middle class many are traveling more.

As far as the content you mentioned. Cultural context of language is one of the major aspects of language. So including concepts of cultural differences, idioms, proverbs, music, art and other things people relate to will help them understand the language as well.

It is common for Thais to aks "did you eat yet?" For most westerners if they are asked this question, we kind of expect the follow up to be "let's go eat." Here it is just a greeting like what's up. Or "Your fat" is very common blunt statement here but say that to a sensitive western person and you might get bumped in the nose. So learning cultural context of language is very important.

Broadening one's mind is the point of education, not just learning certain skills.

[Fookhaht]

"Disclaimer:

My apologies to English teachers in Thailand who consider the understanding of these EFL/ESL differences as second nature. The "choir" I'm preaching to are the clueless--sadly, many of whom I have met, over a dozen years, within my profession in Thailand. "

The ironic thing for me is that you seem to miss the difference in them as well. It isn't about what topics you would choose but actually how you would approach the material and what skills to focus on. In ESL grammar correction isn't the forefront as they are exposed to native speakers all day long. You also might focus on more situational language.

In EFL you need to be more supportive and nurturing to build confidence and place more importance on exploration of the language. Native language interference will be uniform as well in and EFL classroom so it is easier to address.

It is good to include local culture into your lessons as a way to get them to relate what they know which builds a cognitive link. But stating that your entire lessons and activities need to be just Thai focused is silly.

All lessons should have a frame of reference that relates to their students. So activities about jobs, marriage, family don't really work for kids that are 10. so yes, in a sense you are right that lessons need to reflect the needs of the student, but that isn't an EFL/ESL breakdown that is designing a curriculum that matches your students. Many of us are given text books and topics that are required. We have to adjust them to match our classes.

I love how you pidgeon hole the future of Thai people and what needs they have. Frankly, 90% don't need spoken English period if they are just going to live their normal lives here. But exposing people to different cultures, skills and having them enjoy themselves learning something does help them. More kids are studying abroad these days and with an increasing middle class many are traveling more.

As far as the content you mentioned. Cultural context of language is one of the major aspects of language. So including concepts of cultural differences, idioms, proverbs, music, art and other things people relate to will help them understand the language as well.

It is common for Thais to aks "did you eat yet?" For most westerners if they are asked this question, we kind of expect the follow up to be "let's go eat." Here it is just a greeting like what's up. Or "Your fat" is very common blunt statement here but say that to a sensitive western person and you might get bumped in the nose. So learning cultural context of language is very important.

Broadening one's mind is the point of education, not just learning certain skills.

Of course, you can't write the whole pedagogical book in an opening post.

Thank you for an excellent addition to the discussion, which adds a valuable chapter.

[puukao]

I have spent weeks in NYC......that makes me a deity in their eyes!!! Then I tell them I have been to Hollywood!!!!

no, i've never taught in Thailand. but i know what you're saying.....it's case-by-case. if they are going to Chicago, Dallas, NYC, etc... cater accordingly. I'm sure it helps with their confidence; learning from a native who has been there. But in Thailand, sure, those things are secondary. personally, i wouldn't care if a teacher knows the difference. it's his professionalism, passion, and willingness to spend free time to make his classroom better. i've met about 10 teachers......only 2-3 seemed to be completely worthless. not bad for Thailand, i think.

[Fookhaht]

BTW…how long have you been teaching in Thailand OP?

Read the opening post again.

Ok…got it.

So…you have taught English for 12 years in Thailand and you refer to others as clueless?

BAITING

This is the second time you've ignored the content or basic meaning of my post.

Suggest you go pick a fight on another thread.

[Fookhaht]

I have spent weeks in NYC......that makes me a deity in their eyes!!! Then I tell them I have been to Hollywood!!!!

no, i've never taught in Thailand. but i know what you're saying.....it's case-by-case. if they are going to Chicago, Dallas, NYC, etc... cater accordingly. I'm sure it helps with their confidence; learning from a native who has been there. But in Thailand, sure, those things are secondary. personally, i wouldn't care if a teacher knows the difference. it's his professionalism, passion, and willingness to spend free time to make his classroom better. i've met about 10 teachers......only 2-3 seemed to be completely worthless. not bad for Thailand, i think.

I've met about 500-600 foreign teachers, and I concur with your 20-30% worthless ratio.

Three of these included university teachers: one who never showed up in class, another who graded his students by physical attraction (and of course bedded the A students), and a third who regularly showed up in class pissed out of his mind.

Knowing ESL from EFL was the least of their problems.

[Fookhaht]

I've lasted for 30 years without knowing the difference. But in 1985 in Bangkok all one had to do to get a teaching position was to be white and own a shirt and tie.

You probably lasted so long because your supervisors didn't know the difference either. I've worked for Eng. Dept. heads who couldn't hold a conversation. Actually, most don't care about pedagogical differences or language learning methods. As long as you can entertain the kids, you're in.

[Scott]

I've lasted for 30 years without knowing the difference. But in 1985 in Bangkok all one had to do to get a teaching position was to be white and own a shirt and tie.

You probably lasted so long because your supervisors didn't know the difference either. I've worked for Eng. Dept. heads who couldn't hold a conversation. Actually, most don't care about pedagogical differences or language learning methods. As long as you can entertain the kids, you're in.

First those members who wish to troll had better go elsewhere. Suspensions will be given if it continues.

As to the actual topic, I know the difference and it is always a little easier and more practical to teach using the existing cultural context, but language is cultural in many regards and we can't ignore that aspect, although I suspect it was never implied that we should.

The problem in Thailand is that many schools don't have a curriculum per se, for English. They get a book (maybe) and a teacher and that's it. Some schools don't even bother with a decent series that covers all the relevant points and is age appropriate.

More and more Thais are traveling abroad and having to use the language, even regionally. I would guess that 30% of our students have been overseas by the time they are in grade 9 and about 50% by grade 12. This includes school excursions to the UK and to New Zealand.

So, those that help with designing curriculum, and those who have input to the always capricious MOE, they have their work cut out for them. If there is a good curriculum and decent books and guidelines, then some of the less well educated teachers can do a reasonable job. Without those things, even a good teacher can't do much if the students learned little int he preceding years and what is accomplished will largely be lost if the next year doesn't follow on what has been accomplished.

[Mencken]

Keying in on the culture thing, I tend to think that the kids Ive taught rather enjoy learning something about other cultures.

Football is a great entry point BUT if you think so too you'd be wrong cuz how many Thai M4/6 girls follow ManU? You've just bored 50% of your class.

We are foreigners, our jobs in some way is to bring our foreign language and to some extent, culture.

My kids love to chat about foreign foods and dream about distant shores. They enjoy my world travel photos and family life.

Whenever I see a teacher pull out some exercise and the theme is Thailand, I just cringe.

Ss had all that crap rammed down their throats in various Thai courses and then the farang do it all over again. Its never even something totally cool and unknown about the country. Usually, its some tired, boring tripe that is a rehash of every uncreative teacher their entire lives.

This actually happened this year to me. A co.teacher handed me some crap lesson about some tired aspect of Thailand most likely done by every farang teacher since forever. I refused to teach it.

New arrivals to Thailand especially those that have done little if any travel and if honest know next to nothing about the culture and country need to realize that because they found something on the Internet about Thailand that they think is teachable may not at all be interesting.

What might be somehow interesting to them, the noob arrival of 1-5 years is most likely a real snoozer. In fact, they're embarrassing themselves.

I totally agree about lesson relevance. Teaching ten year olds about jobs is a perfect example. Yeah, intellectually its a lesson to engage and present language. Could be goldfish or desserts. But the more relevant and simply interesting the better.

I do use a bit of Thai in some classes for levity or if the kids are stuck and its against policy, but I find it works on many levels including the kids live it, especially low levels. I use it as a tool to get them to speak in English, clarification or just a laugh. They feel I am more clued into them and respect me more - as well as remembering names and faces.

But please kill yourself if the best thing you can come up with is a lesson on: floating market, royal palace, some <deleted> monument, auyuthya, banal article on hill tribes, etc.. You need to get out more.

Teachers won't want to here this but most have a superficial knowledge of the country at best. They are too broke, too old or too disinterested in traveling the country.

They don't eat Thai, live like Thais, married to Thai, travel in Thailand... but everyone is such an authority of the country.

There is a time and place for using Thailand and not using Thailand in curriculum or lessons.

My experience in Thai public school is only ten percent are worth employing. I myself really need to break out of this system, I'm trying.

It's not just a job. You are teaching in a foreign country's school system. You need to do your best every day. You have no right to blame the system for anything, you signed up. If you are incapable of working in it you need to leave.

That means if you are a lazy teacher doing nothing and stealing a paycheck OR if your standards are simply too high for the schools and you are driven mad by it all. Either way imo.

But please..no lessons on floating markets or Chaing Mai.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Mencken

[Mencken]

99% of everyone here will teach EFL. It's really only the International's where you might be arguably teaching ESL in some situations, debatable.

Sort of irrelevant topic for Thailand.

EFL, I mean the op defined it...

[nottocus]

Does it all really matter?

As long as I get my MASSIVE pay check then that's all that matters.

[Scott]

An off-topic, inflammatory post has been removed. Please discuss the topic and not your opinion of other posters. Continuing to do so will result in suspensions.

[bigt3116]

A good read - Teaching English to Thai learners. A task-based approach for effective classroom instruction.

Michael Thomas Gentner.

Bangkok university press

ISBN 978-616-361-462-9

:-)

[brewsterbudgen]

I wouldn't have thought many people here teach ESL? These days, I mainly teach EAP.

[Fookhaht]

I wouldn't have thought many people here teach ESL? These days, I mainly teach EAP.

I would estimate that over 60-70% of the foreign teachers I know teach ESL but don't know it–- hence the need to make the distinction.

[bigt3116]

Nobody should be teaching ESL here, and as for EAP - "The culture where the language is used in EAP is Higher Education, usually in an English speaking country.".

[brewsterbudgen]

Nobody should be teaching ESL here, and as for EAP - "The culture where the language is used in EAP is Higher Education, usually in an English speaking country.".

There is plenty of EAP work in Bangkok.