What counts as working?

[ourmanflint]

Looking for some advice from those in the know. I am hoping to retire from the UK in a couple of years and move to Thailand with my Thai wife, so will be on spouse visa? If thats a real thing. Anyway, when I say retire I mean semi-retire I suppose as will continue with my agency work if I can.

I'm a freelance photographer so will be sending photos overseas to the agency, but photos will not be taken in Thailand. They will be edited there though.

Does this count as working in Thailand? All monies will be paid into UK bank account.

Thanks for the advice

[Tomtomtom69]

Why do people always ask these kind of questions.

As long as you keep these things under the radar, there is no problem. As long as you don't have Thai clients, there is no problem.

Just take your photos, send them to the UK as if you were sending holiday snaps to your family members back home.

Keep quiet and tell no one what you're doing.

Otherwise, if we're going to get into the semantics of "working", then technically, flushing your own toilet is "working". Cooking your own dinner is "working". Driving your own car is "working". Washing the dishes is "working". Opening a few bottles of beer or wine and serving the people living in your house is "working". And so on...

[ourmanflint]

OK, Thanks. So Malaysia it is then.

[Don Mega]

They will be edited there though.

Editing is work I presume ?

Does this count as working in Thailand

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner !!

[impulse]

Ask these folks:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/808254-illegal-chinese-photographer-arrested-at-phuket-beach

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/808276-crackdown-on-chinese-photographers-in-phuket

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706183-chinese-expats-arrested-in-phuket-for-work-permit-offences

Your chances of getting banged up decrease dramatically if you're not taking wedding clients from envious Thai photographers, but it's still "working".

Rather than ask, "is this considered working", just figure it is, and ask whether it's worth the risk. Don't ask how to get away with it, because discussing that is against forum rules.

That's a better conversation over a few beers in a Thai restaurant. Thousands have been doing it for years. I've seen thousands of gorgeous Thai photos on hundreds of travel blogs. A little bit of blog searching should give you a few dozen folks to ask...

[12DrinkMore]

With over 1,000 posts I do wonder why you are asking this.

Easiest visa by far is 800k in a bank account and a retirement visa.

I have found the best way of living here is

1. Don't talk about anything other than absolute trivia.

2. Don't get involved in other people's cr5p.

3. Accept things are different and don't do the, "in the west blah f9cking blah" advice giving.

Low profile, be careful who you choose as friends.

Any never, ever, talk about your finances.

Just carry on with your plans. There will be no issue unless you feel the absolute need to blab on about, "oh have some important work to get finished". Then the sh1t is already in front of the fan.

Edited February 9, 2016 by 12DrinkMore

[jspill]

Ask these folks:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/808254-illegal-chinese-photographer-arrested-at-phuket-beach

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/808276-crackdown-on-chinese-photographers-in-phuket

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/706183-chinese-expats-arrested-in-phuket-for-work-permit-offences

Your chances of getting banged up decrease dramatically if you're not taking wedding clients from envious Thai photographers, but it's still "working".

Rather than ask, "is this considered working", just figure it is, and ask whether it's worth the risk. Don't ask how to get away with it, because discussing that is against forum rules.

That's a better conversation over a few beers in a Thai restaurant. Thousands have been doing it for years. I've seen thousands of gorgeous Thai photos on hundreds of travel blogs. A little bit of blog searching should give you a few dozen folks to ask...

Those linked threads are all guys who were physically walking around taking pics in Thailand though.

[jspill]

If OP is editing pics at home that weren't taken in Thailand and sending them back overseas, it's essentially an online business and as has been debated many times, that's a grey area.

No one's ever been prosecuted for it in Thailand worldwide and the notion is ridiculous. There are some anecdotal reports of immigration saying digital nomads are fine, and people telling IOs they 'work online and it has nothing to do with Thailand' and being told that's fine.

OP will most likely be fine. Sure, Thailand deliberately leaves the definition of work vague so they can apply 'rule by law' instead of 'rule of law' and prosecute anyone for anything, even painting a fence in their own garden. That doesn't mean someone should decide not to move to Thailand though, there's the 'letter of the law' and then the 'spirit of the law'.

[jspill]

Bunch of threads on the other side of the coin:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753621-digital-nomad-online-workers-permission/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/872808-telling-immigration-officers-you-work-online-if-questioned-at-border/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/783955-digital-nomad-told-hes-not-a-criminal-for-blogging-released-without-charge/

Edited February 9, 2016 by jspill

[Mr Money Bags]

Keeping it quiet, not attracting attention, maintaining a low profile, not talking publicly about what one is doing.

I assume all these things are predicated on the same belief - namely, that what is being undertaken is not actually legal. So, the question that reverberates in my pudding pot of a brain is quite simple:

IF what one is doing is illegal, is advising them how to best avoid getting caught at it also illegal?

I am reasonably sure it is and would be interpreted as such. Now, my genuinely concerned query will be deleted in a matter of moments......

You're Welcome!!

[jspill]

It's not in my head that 'this is illegal so I need to keep quiet about it', at all.

It's more like - this is a developing country where any low level authorities who hear the word 'working' will not really understand what online work is, and will simply want to shake down someone for a bribe.

There have been cases of people being brought in for questioning when police were confused, and I'd rather avoid that. E.g. the digital nomads at Punspace coworking space who spent a day at the station but were finally released when police worked out they weren't working for the internet cafe - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/764936-immigration-raid-targets-digital-nomads-in-chiang-mai/

(If you don't have time to read the whole thread that's what happened, they were released without charge).

The other reason is some expats you tell in a bar might make up a more extreme version of what you do, and it might take all day for you to explain that what you do doesn't involve Thailand. That's what happened in the 4th link I posted above.

It's more of a common sense thing where nothing good can come of talking about it. Having said that, people have have been open about it to IOs - see the second and third link I posted.

I wouldn't want low ranking police or expats in a random bar to know about it. That doesn't mean I think a judge would convict me of a crime for blogging though.

[torpedo1970]

[elviajero]

It sounds like you plan to operate a business and carry out your occupation as a freelance photographer. Pretty sure that would be considered work by any definition and including your own. Work in Thailand requires permission which you won't get without being employed here.

I would imagine that the authorities would leave you alone even if they new that you were working illegally, but declaring that you are woking to anyone would be a bad idea.

[ourmanflint]

With over 1,000 posts I do wonder why you are asking this.

Easiest visa by far is 800k in a bank account and a retirement visa.

I have found the best way of living here is

1. Don't talk about anything other than absolute trivia.

2. Don't get involved in other people's cr5p.

3. Accept things are different and don't do the, "in the west blah f9cking blah" advice giving.

Low profile, be careful who you choose as friends.

Any never, ever, talk about your finances.

Just carry on with your plans. There will be no issue unless you feel the absolute need to blab on about, "oh have some important work to get finished". Then the sh1t is already in front of the fan.

I know, I know, I should know better. Still I would like to find a way to live and work in Thailand legally without worrying. My wifes family are very eager to help any way they can, so will we see. Still a few years away anyway

The whole Digital Nomad thing is a very interesting area, and this is close to my situation. I will stay be paying tax in the UK or US

Edited February 9, 2016 by ourmanflint

[fekman]

In Thailand, the legal definition of work is "the exertion of energy, or use of knowledge, whether for compensation or not". Not a joke. Purposely written so vague so it can be interpreted as they like. We are all violating labor laws by simply reading and responding to these posts.

[rwdrwdrwd]

@fekman - you forgot the all important start of that definition - 'working is working by...' which I'm sure you'll agree makes it much more logical

Basically anything is 'working' if it's 'working', 'working' is 'working' and if it is 'working' then it doesn't matter if you're paid or not.

It's not 'working' if it isn't 'working'

So basically, if you're 'working' then you're 'working' and if you aren't 'working' then it's not 'work'

Sure that's all clear now.

[i claudius]

sorry got bored reading this , so i am off to work

watering the garden

[elviajero]

I know, I know, I should know better. Still I would like to find a way to live and work in Thailand legally without worrying. My wifes family are very eager to help any way they can, so will we see. Still a few years away anyway

The whole Digital Nomad thing is a very interesting area, and this is close to my situation. I will stay be paying tax in the UK or US

The definition of 'work' that some are fixated on is ONLY relevant to the Alien Working Act. And the Alien Working Act is ONLY relevant to foreigners working for Thai employers. The definition of work within the act is necessarily broad so it is clear that permission is required regardless of the amount of remuneration or physical effort, knowledge on the part of the foreigner. Otherwise it would be open to abuse. Unless you are going to be working for a Thai employer, this act and it's definition of work, do not apply to you.

For people to suggest that this definition of work applies to everyday life is absolute nonsense.

I think the world understands that someone employed to do a job, self employed or operating a business is working. When we are granted permission to stay in Thailand it's for the reasons in Section 34 of the Immigration Act. Working is not included in the list of activities, therefore, you have not been given permission to work. Section 37.1 further clarifies that working requires permission. Permission to work for a Thai employer is governed by the Alien Working Act, however, there is no provision for a foreigner working for a non-Thai employer, which makes permission impossible and any work illegal.

Obviously the opportunities for remote working have increased over recent years and many didn't exist when the immigration act was written and last amended. IMO at some point in the future the authorities will have to deal with the advent of remote working and will either start prosecuting people, exempt certain work from the immigration act, or create a work permit/permission system for people working that aren't employed by a Thai company. As change would likely require amendments to the Immigration and possibly the Alien Working Acts I doubt it will happen anytime soon.

Until change happens I think the authorities will continue to turn a blind eye and leave people like you alone. So although the work you are proposing to do is illegal under the law, the law apparently isn't being enforced, and there seems little chance of you being prosecuted. But the possibility will exist until the law is changed.

If you want to legitimize your business you could look in to setting up a partnership with your wife, but that will probably only be practical if your business produces a significant income.

Also note that although your income is earned abroad, if you live in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year you are considered resident for tax, and may be liable for tax on income brought in to the country. Thailand uses self assessment but currently doesn't insist foreigners with temporary leave to stay submit a tax return, however, the legal obligation exists.

I don't believe that senior governing bosses have a problem with remote workers like you, which is evident from the lack of law enforcement. It will probably take the Chiang Mai coffee shops bursting at the seams with Digital Nomads before they act.

IMO the authorities consider DN's to be what the name suggests, short term visitors passing through, and not visitors relocating their businesses to Thailand. As more and more are encouraged to come by the misguided the sooner the bubble will burst. I personally don't believe that remote work like yours or the self proclaimed Digital Nomads will ever be legalised because it opens up a new set of problems, and simply wouldn't be worth the trouble.

Edited February 10, 2016 by elviajero

[ourmanflint]

^ Thanks for the reply elviajero.

[jspill]

Permission to work for a Thai employer is governed by the Alien Working Act, however, there is no provision for a foreigner working for a non-Thai employer, which makes permission impossible and any work illegal.

In that case it's 'unlawful' not 'illegal'. For something to be 'illegal' it has to be forbidden by law. If there's no provision for it, and the Alien Labor act only applies to those employed by a Thai entity, then it isn't expressly forbidden (yet). It just isn't expressly authorized by law either.

I doubt anyone will ever be prosecuted for it for that reason. It probably would have happened by now here or in some country in the world, but to my knowledge hasn't.

[elviajero]

Permission to work for a Thai employer is governed by the Alien Working Act, however, there is no provision for a foreigner working for a non-Thai employer, which makes permission impossible and any work illegal.

In that case it's 'unlawful' not 'illegal'. For something to be 'illegal' it has to be forbidden by law. If there's no provision for it, and the Alien Labor act only applies to those employed by a Thai entity, then it isn't expressly forbidden (yet). It just isn't expressly authorized by law either.

I doubt anyone will ever be prosecuted for it for that reason. It probably would have happened by now here or in some country in the world, but to my knowledge hasn't.

Illegal means against the law and as the law doesn't say you can work it is against the law to do so. If it isn't "expressly authorised by law", that specifies the only activities allowed, you can't do it!!

Someone entering the country with a non 'B' visa is under the same immigration rules as you entering with a tourist visa. Neither of you can work without permission and the non 'B' holder can only work once he's granted permission/work permit. The fact that you can't apply doesn't mean you can work by default.

There are probably several reasons why people aren't being prosecuted, and not being able to get permission to work may be one. But regardless of the reasons working without permission is illegal, unlawful or any other adjective you wish to use to describe breaking the law.

[jspill]

There's actually a clear distinction between illegal and unlawful - http://thelawdictionary.org/unlawful/

With respect I don't think it's your place to say anyone is 'breaking the law'.

I know I can't work for a Thai employer, those are the immigration rules that apply to me. I don't though, so I'm still a tourist. There are no permissions or work permits for remote workers even if they wanted one.

Edited February 10, 2016 by jspill

[elviajero]

There's actually a clear distinction between illegal and unlawful - http://thelawdictionary.org/unlawful/

With respect I don't think it's your place to say anyone is 'breaking the law'.

I know I can't work for a Thai employer, those are the immigration rules that apply to me. I don't though, so I'm still a tourist. There are no permissions or work permits for remote workers even if they wanted one.

Do you really want to argue semantics! http://thelawdictionary.org/illegal/

With respect I am entitled to my opinion, and when the law in this country clearly prohibits foreigners working without permission it is irresponsible of you claim otherwise. People should know the facts and make there decisions accordingly.

The MFA say you can't work, the immigration act says you can't work, the immigration act says you need permission to work, you have been given a temporary permit to stay for the purpose of tourism and the definition of tourism does not include working/operating a business. The Immigration Act is law and so working without permission would be breaking the law.

Again, the fact that you cannot get permission to do your work does not by default make it legal for you to work, neither does an immigration officer claiming it's ok, or the fact that authorities don't apparently prosecute anyone.

Why you are on this crusade to disprove clearly written law is beyond me. And the "spirit" of immigration law is that tourists come here for tourism.

Edited February 11, 2016 by elviajero

[rwdrwdrwd]

<opinion>OP just do it and keep it quiet, nobody who matters gives a crap if all custom and income is outside of Thailand.</opinion>

Edited February 11, 2016 by rwdrwdrwd

[donnybay]

Why not ask the Mods on Thaivisa? do they need work permits to edit posts on this forum?

[jspill]

Why you are on this crusade to disprove clearly written law is beyond me. And the "spirit" of immigration law is that tourists come here for tourism.

There's no written law for what OP does or many others do - 100% remote work. No limits on the length of a tourist's stay either, and the definition of a tourist can encompass absolute anything other than working for a resident entity in a country. No one's ever been jailed for blogging or having a Youtube channel.

Likewise I'd ask why you're adamant to declare it's 100% illegal, instead of a grey area? Writing lots of forum posts doesn't make you an authority on Thai law.

[elviajero]

Why you are on this crusade to disprove clearly written law is beyond me. And the "spirit" of immigration law is that tourists come here for tourism.

There's no written law for what OP does or many others do - 100% remote work. No limits on the length of a tourist's stay either, and the definition of a tourist can encompass absolute anything other than working for a resident entity in a country. No one's ever been jailed for blogging or having a Youtube channel.

Likewise I'd ask why you're adamant to declare it's 100% illegal, instead of a grey area? Writing lots of forum posts doesn't make you an authority on Thai law.

• Do you honestly think they are going to amend the Alien Working Act, or write a new one for the benefit of a few remote workers that think they have a given right to work here!!!
• There already is a law covering remote work called the Immigration Act. It tells them everything they need to know. They can't work.
• The length someone can stay as a tourist is irrelevant it's what they are allowed to do, by law, as a tourist that counts. Work is not included.
• The Immigration Act says you cannot carryout any occupation or employment without permission. Even if section 37.1 didn't exist you're screwed under section 34 anyway, because it lists the only activities allowed, and working isn't one of them.
• You are reducing your arguments to nonsense again. Again, I don't believe immigration have an issue with short term tourists blogging or doing other online work. But someone that lives here, and works for a living from within Thailand, is a completely different matter, and part of the authorities apparent dilemma.
• It's illegal because the law dictates that you cannot work.
• It is impossible for it to be a grey area. It's either legal to work on a tourist visa entry or not. The law says not.
• I don't claim to be an authority on Thai law, but I can read both Thai and English and can understand the very straightforward clauses in the immigration act that govern what we can and can't do as foreigners. I also have long standing contacts in the DOL and TIB who advise me.

The difference between us is that I don't limit my knowledge to forums and have actual real life experience as a business owner and employer of foreign IT workers both here and in the UK.

Edited February 11, 2016 by elviajero

[jspill]

I don't think they'd amend any act, no. I don't recall saying I expect them to.

The Immigration act doesn't cover remote work it just says under Section 34 I can enter as a tourist. That's what I did. I don't work for a Thai employer, or have any employment here.

When does a short term tourist blogging cross the line to someone living here? Blogging can be an online business whether it's done in the first week or fifth year. If Thailand keeps issuing me tourist visas, and is happy with any proof of funds I show them, then one can assume I'm not crossing any line yet - why do think you're an authority to define me as a long term tourist?

It's unlawful not illegal.

I can also read Thai, not sure why that matters. Remote work isn't covered in the Thai versions either.

Claiming to 'have contacts' is meaningless on an online messageboard. Arguing from authority is a logical fallacy - you being a business owner and employer in doesn't affect the issue.

[elviajero]

I don't think they'd amend any act, no. I don't recall saying I expect them to.

The Immigration act doesn't cover remote work it just says under Section 34 I can enter as a tourist. That's what I did. I don't work for a Thai employer, or have any employment here.

When does a short term tourist blogging cross the line to someone living here? Blogging can be an online business whether it's done in the first week or fifth year. If Thailand keeps issuing me tourist visas, and is happy with any proof of funds I show them, then one can assume I'm not crossing any line yet - why do think you're an authority to define me as a long term tourist?

It's unlawful not illegal.

I can also read Thai, not sure why that matters. Remote work isn't covered in the Thai versions either.

Claiming to 'have contacts' is meaningless on an online messageboard. Arguing from authority is a logical fallacy - you being a business owner and employer in doesn't affect the issue.

When you find a clause within the Act or a Ministerial Regulation that exempts whatever work you do from the immigration act let me know. Until then I will stick with the facts that any work without permission is in breach of the terms of being granted a permit to stay, therefore, illegal.

You can apply to enter as a tourist for the activity of tourism indefinitely if they issue you a visa, but as soon as you include the activity of work you are breaking the law that limits your activity to tourism.

[jspill]

When you find one that forbids remote working let me know? There's work for a resident Thai entity without permission, and then there's tourists in Chiang Mai with YouTube channels about vegan food and cashing out Ad revenue to their Kasikorn... I don't think Thailand has an issue with them.

Many on a tourist visa have explained to IOs worked online and were not told they were breaking the law. I guess that's all anecdotal and you know better?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/872808-telling-immigration-officers-you-work-online-if-questioned-at-border/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920

Could link many more examples. Let me know when you can link anyone being arrested for running blog about cats on their fourth tourist visa or whatever, and transferring Paypal funds into the Thai economy to spend on condo rent.