Looking for advices for possibly buying a house

[SlyouThai]

Hey guys , im looking for informations to do things in a perfect legal way. Let me explain what the situation is :

Im currently living in Thailand , im married to a thai women and we have one child. My mother who just received some money would be interested in investing in real estate here to get retirement money. Since me and my wife got a lot of contacts for location business , we thought it would be a nice idea to buy a villa and then rent it by weeks etc , providing money for my mother and a little extra for us.

Now i have one house im interested in , owned by a thai. What would be the best option for me in order to buy it. Im aware that a 90 years lease is bullshit ( tell me if im wrong ) so it would be a 30 years lease.

Other option would be making a company with nominees etc , wich is not legal even everybody does it. Who knows what could hapens in the future right?

Now the thing is , it kind of sux that after 30 years the house will go back to the Thai seller ..

So im thinking is that legal if like my mothers send the money to me here , then i give it to my wife , she buys the house and proceed to make a 30 years lease to my mother .

So worst case scenario there ( i put aside the scenario where my wife runs with the money lol ) after 30 years my wife doesnt renew the lease to my mother or me , she keeps the house and thats fine by me because anyway she will use it to take care our kid .

Is that legal to do ?

If anybody get other ideas please give me some advices . Im basically trying to find a solution where we can keep this house in the family after 30 years , and to do it properly and legally.

Thanks in advance for any answers

[MaeJoMTB]

There is no legal way for you to buy a house in Thailand.

Proxy ownership, which is what you are discussing, is not legal.

Not to mention the chances of making any money with the current exchange rate and high house prices is minimal.

Don't do it.

[fosseway]

The lease is not transferable, so if you Mum died, so would the lease.

[bearpolar]

adopt thai kid

Put into name of thai kid

be good to the kid

[bangkoklawyer24]

This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate. But outside of this forum, everyone does exactly this. There are no known cases where the government interferes with such investment structure during the last ten years. But most foreigners avoid expensive legal advice to implement a protection mechanism against the Thai majority shareholders. And after the normal Thai wife got her hands on the majority shares, she kicks the farang out of his home.

[trogers]

Buy a condo with your mum as sole owner and rent it out, and write a will in favor of whoever she wants, even to her grandkids.

[WorkingTourist]

There are no known cases where the government interferes with such investment structure during the last ten years […]

However, there are cases where the foreigner gets defrauded of “their” assets (actually held by the company, and someone else in the company sell the company’s assets, possibly via a fake signature). In such case, the government may punish the fraudster (as has been done in the past), but the foreigner may still lack the house, and there’s little help from the government, because technically it was an illegal setup and the foreigner newer owned the house…

[xylophone]

This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate. But outside of this forum, everyone does exactly this. There are no known cases where the government interferes with such investment structure during the last ten years. But most foreigners avoid expensive legal advice to implement a protection mechanism against the Thai majority shareholders. And after the normal Thai wife got her hands on the majority shares, she kicks the farang out of his home.

Quote: "This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate".

The reason is not unknown, it is illegal. And no matter how many people do it, it is still illegal.

[chiang mai]

There's no good way around the OP's issue, it is indeed proxy ownership whichever way you look at it.

[trogers]

This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate. But outside of this forum, everyone does exactly this. There are no known cases where the government interferes with such investment structure during the last ten years. But most foreigners avoid expensive legal advice to implement a protection mechanism against the Thai majority shareholders. And after the normal Thai wife got her hands on the majority shares, she kicks the farang out of his home.

Quote: "This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate".

The reason is not unknown, it is illegal. And no matter how many people do it, it is still illegal.

And when a person does something illegal and subsequently got cheat, they scream fraud...not looking back at their initial action that started the chain of events.

The law allows legal ownership of condos. Follow it, rather than to try evading the law...

[oxo1947]

You can buy the house--your wife---or child can buy the land--- & you take a usufruct out on the land. .......

[trogers]

You can buy the house--your wife---or child can buy the land--- & you take a usufruct out on the land. .......

The OP is referring to his mother's retirement fund, and not his own money.

[chiang mai]

This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate. But outside of this forum, everyone does exactly this. There are no known cases where the government interferes with such investment structure during the last ten years. But most foreigners avoid expensive legal advice to implement a protection mechanism against the Thai majority shareholders. And after the normal Thai wife got her hands on the majority shares, she kicks the farang out of his home.

That is untrue, the Land Office in Hang Dong (Chiang Mai) at least has actively enforced that foreigners who own real estate through a limited company, where real estate ownership is the sole reason for the company's existence, must change the ownership arrangements within six months of being notified. I personally know of two such examples and as a result, my Thai wife is now, under the advice of a top rated lawyer in Chiang Mai, the proxy owner of one of those properties!

So, from the above we can conclude that, assuming you are actually a lawyer; 1) the legal profession as a whole doesn't know fully what is permissible or not, and, 2) they are actively engaged in circumventing the laws of Thailand, illegally - all of which is a couple of really good reasons to take the ultra safe route to property ownership.

[stgrhe]

Buy a condo in the best possible location depending on the budget, typically near a university if the budget is slim, and along Chao Prao river in Bangkok in the other end. When investing for renting location, location, and location is the rule.

There are many false statements when it comes to buying land in Thailand. It is actually not totally forbidden for foreign citizens to own land but the circumstances are very special so in practice it is not possible for most of us.

Also, it is not forbidden by law for someone operating a legimit company to control the land owned by the company. It is when the Thai partners are proxy owners it becomes illegal. There is also a risk involved with this route unless the company is set up properly with protection for the foregin owner.

One more thing, US citizen can own companies in Thailand 100%. However, those companies are forbidden to own land.

[Davekavo]

You can buy a condo in your or your mothers name and rent it out. Myself and my Thai wife run a property business in Bangkok and have dealt with this situation before. so it is doable and 100% legal.It is not a good idea to play around with shady property deals keep it all above bord and you will have no problems down the road.If you draw up a will and leave property to who ever you nominate,they will recive the property as per the instructions on the will.I think it could be better to buy condo in your Thai wifes name. If your looking at buying to rent out give me a call or email me i have a lot of well priced units available all over Bangkok.

[chicowoodduck]

I don't think you are looking for advices...maybe just advice, so will keep it short and sweet....DON'T....

[AlQaholic]

I'm not an expert in this subject, but nobody seem to mention the fully legal option of leasing for 30 years with a legal option to extend for another 30 years?

[bangkoklawyer24]

Quote: "This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate".

The reason is not unknown, it is illegal. And no matter how many people do it, it is still illegal.

This forum is repeating over and over again an alleged illegality, but it is unknown for what reason.

[ozyjon]

You will go to jail where you can continue the discussion there,

and probably get better replies than here.

[KamnanT]

Just curious: is there any particular reason your mother has chosen Thailand as the place to generate rental income from her savings? I can think of more than a few alternatives with better rental returns and fewer restrictions on foreign ownership.

[mike324]

"My mother who just received some money would be interested in investing in real estate here to get retirement money. Since me and my wife got a lot of contacts for location business , we thought it would be a nice idea to buy a villa and then rent it by weeks etc , providing money for my mother and a little extra for us."

Like others have said, what you are doing is risky. Its also pretty hard to rent out villas nowadays. You are better off at buying a condo and renting it out, given how much prices of condos are nowadays, returns are along 3-4%. If you buy an older condo, you can get up to 5-6%. That is the safe bet, buy in your own name or your moms, no need to deal with land, 30 year lease and what not. Not to mention it is easier to maintain as well, your condo is more likely to appreciate then the villa in the future. It would be easier to sell if you decide to cash out.

[xylophone]

Quote: "This forum hates for unknown reasons the set-up of a company to hold real estate".

The reason is not unknown, it is illegal. And no matter how many people do it, it is still illegal.

This forum is repeating over and over again an alleged illegality, but it is unknown for what reason.

So to give credence to your theory you post a link through to a company whose raison d'être is to sell real estate by offering "legal advice" or vice versa and trying to do so via a very convoluted, unproven and "risky" process?

In addition, "Chiang Mai" has posted that all of the folk who thought they were doing this sort of thing "legally" could now be in for a big shock and I would like to remind you of the following which was reproduced here on Thai Visa a couple of years ago:

Ombudsmen urge draconian new law

BANGKOK: -- Thai ombudsmen is drafting a carrot-and-stick law to protect Thai lands from illegal foreign nominee ownership, while developers and consultants suggest more legal transparency, a longer leasehold period and higher foreigner property taxes to prevent nominees.

Ombudsman Siracha Charoenpanij said the new law would comprise punishment for companies offering advice to foreigners on how to hold Thai property by disguising their legal transaction. This would include law firms and consultants.

The existing law enforced by the Lands Department requires foreigners found holding Thai property to transfer the plot to someone else or sell it within 180 days.

"The new law includes a reward to anyone providing information about foreigners owning land through nominees. They will get 20% of the market price of that piece of land as a reward after the plot is sold," he said at a seminar on foreign property ownership yesterday held by the Thai Appraisal Foundation.

Deportation

The new law would also deport foreigners found guilty of holding land plots in Thailand illegally.

Ombudsmen will submit the draft to parliament this year, and Mr Siracha thinks there is backing for the bill.

"Anyone related to the property business may be unhappy with this bill as it will make the market rigid. But this law can help protect the land for the next generation of Thais," he said.

And furthermore it is illegal to set up a Thai company whose sole aim is to own property.

A look at this may also help.......... http://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=setting_up_a_business

[Toscano]

You do not say where your mother lives . Unless she lives in Thailand it would be very unwise for her to invest in Thailand as it is not easy to send money out of Thailand .

I believe the minimum amount you can send out of Thailand is Bt 500,000 ? I think you would come badly unstuck one way or another . A villa could be wholly owned in your wife's name , a Condo would be the only safe possibility , leases are not at all secure and Thai law is unlikely to protect you . I agree with others here who say , " DON'T DO IT "!!! Your mother would be wiser to invest in her own country .

[thaiduncankk]

You do not say where your mother lives . Unless she lives in Thailand it would be very unwise for her to invest in Thailand as it is not easy to send money out of Thailand .

I believe the minimum amount you can send out of Thailand is Bt 500,000 ? I think you would come badly unstuck one way or another . A villa could be wholly owned in your wife's name , a Condo would be the only safe possibility , leases are not at all secure and Thai law is unlikely to protect you . I agree with others here who say , " DON'T DO IT "!!! Your mother would be wiser to invest in her own country .

I don't think there is a minimum amount you can send out of Thailand, I have sent far lesser amounts, on several occasions.

The fee, however, is usually per transaction regardless of the amount involved, making it an expensive way of transferring smaller amounts.

[robertson468]

Just curious: is there any particular reason your mother has chosen Thailand as the place to generate rental income from her savings? I can think of more than a few alternatives with better rental returns and fewer restrictions on foreign ownership.

I would strongly recommend you point her in the direction of Southern Spain. A while back the housing market (and economy) there crashed and there has been a glut of unsold but very nice very inexpensive apartments. Like any Country, they have their crooks, but as always, "buyer beware" and do your research on who you are dealing with. Last year, I believe for the first time the value of housing increased by about 2% and I believe strongly that the only way for the prices to go is up. Many Brits have noticed this and are buying in to the Spanish Housing Market again. She should also look at what she seeks to achieve as a "Return on Investment (ROI)". 10 years after building our houses here, we are achieving 11% annual return on investment, which beats the hell out of any bank, stock market or other get rich quick scheme. There are Management Companies who can both take care of the apartment and be responsible for renting it out. She and your Family could also from time to time have a nice holiday in it too when it is vacant! The laws on ownership there are far less onerous and confusing than Thailand. Good luck.

[khunPer]

Company solution – apart from you will be with 51 percent Thai shareholders and your preferred shares, giving you a voting majority, may not prove legal – will easily cost you 40,000 baht or more in accounting fees and annual balance report, plus a little company tax. Furthermore any income (lease or rent from villa) shall be taxed; and when property is sold, any capital gain will also be taxed.

As you have a Thai child, and when married to the Thai mother you are legal father, you can let your Thai child be the owner of the property. The land can normally not be sold before the child is of legal age (20-21 years old). You can make sure, that you are considered as the guardian for the land transaction (the mother can sign a declaration, giving you full custody). A Thai child can own property and hold stocks – for example in the company owing a villa for rental – etc. under guardian.

Any lease (only up to 30 years is legal) or “usufruct” or “superficies” agreement shall be made before or same time the land is transferred, as it may be impossible to do later, due to owner is minor.

Furthermore you (or your mum) can have a loan declared on the back of the land title deed – which I presume is Chanote, otherwise don’t buy before it’s upgraded to Chanote – kind of mortgage servitude with you as the lender. The loan can be the full value you pay for land+house. With this declaration the property cannot be sold or transferred without the load being paid in full, including interest; a worst case scenario extra security for the invested money.

I advise you to use an experienced lawyer to advise you and make the right documents in accordance with present law/rules – first lawyer-session is normally free, so you can check the service before you “buy”.

Apart from some posters may tell you “never buy”, do think of the good old advice “never invest more in Thailand, than you can afford to loose”. Buying property in Thailand may not always be an investment, but that depend (mainly) of location and a number of other factors.

I wish you good luck with your plan...

[cabanlit]

Your mother wants to 'invest' in real estate?

Let me tell you my definition of 'investment'.

1) You buy something at a price you're happy with.

2) While you have it, you make money on it by way of income and / or capital growth

3) When you've had enough of that particular investment, you sell it and invest in something else.

In Thai real estate, the 'selling' bit is seriously, seriously difficult. Once in the market, getting your money back out of it is awkward.

I'd advise you NOT to do it, and if your mother wants real estate, then she should buy in a country with an active and regulated housing market.

[VIPinthailand]

I have the solution : buy a condo to your name. all problem solved for the next 100 years.

[Thaidream]

Do not under any circumstances allow your mother to invest any of her retirement money in Thailand in the hopes she will make a killing and be able to use the profit to enhance her retirement days. The few who have made some money are dwarfed by hundreds and hundreds who have either lost money or cannot sell the property when they need the money.The only time you ever buy a house or condo in Thailand is when you plan on living in it forever and then leaving it to family upon your death. For retirement, cash is king. You can't eat a condo or a house. Don't listen to people telling you how much that can be made or try and sell you on the benefits. It is not their money - it is your mother's money that is at risk.

[xtrnuno41]

DO you know how many houses or for rent in Thailand? Depending on location and extra's it would be more worthwhile.

As foreigner you cant own land, but you do have to "own" it in your wifes,kids name, not wise to use Thai seller for a lease of the land.

As you said after 30 years the land would be back to Thai seller and possibly you have to break down then the house or just aswell lose it.

Leasing all cost you a lot and then it is just for a 30 year renting, the owner aswell has to pay tax as it is being commercial property and sure will put that on your bill. So what would be then the profits? .

Owing by your Thai wife or kid is the best, but then even tax comes your way.

30 years is by Thai law maximum of lease. You can only add on intensions of leasing another 30 years and even another 30 years after that.

However this has no value in Thai law and so means nothing.

An usfruct is possible and more tight. i red.

You can be owner of house, but never landowner !! Only your wife or your kid can, by being Thai citizens

By Thai company.name is getting more difficult, as they check this more and your company has to be real !! working.

So better think twice and check with real estate brokers with good name and knowledge about Thai law and property or a lawyer.