Work Permit Required?

[F4UCorsair]

For fs, jjust change the f***ing globe. I find it incomprehensible that you're even asking.

Thai authorities, however impractical or stupid, as deemed by some TV members, wouldn't give a damn.

Edited February 13, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[thaibeachlovers]

Thai labor law, the definition of work is "exerting effort" and "employing knowledge", "whether or not for wages or other benefits

So by this definition WP required

So, by your definition Home Pro etc are colluding in illegal acts by selling DIY tools to farangs, any farang digging a garden, walking the dog, cooking, cleaning the house or driving their wife, never mind doing more major things like fixing the family house are all requiring a work permit. I think not.

However, for the OP, get the girlfriend to change the bulb while you hold the ladder, if in doubt.

BTW after the big storm I went out to help the locals clear away the debris from the streets- none of them were reporting me to the police for working illegally, and after the big flood, when I was helping the council workers by digging a ditch, they didn't report me either.

IMO only get done if have PO someone and they want revenge.

[jspill]

Makes me laugh at this pearler.

I know the law very well, clearly you and many others don't and continue to spread misinformation.

And yet if you disagree with him you're the 'wannabe lawyer'

[thaibeachlovers]

I think this question needs an empirical approach, rather than a theoretical one to answer it.

In the last 20 years or so, has there been any documented proof or evidence (with specific names, dates, URL-hotlinks to the data, not just rumors) of any foreigner being prosecuted for cooking his own eggs for breakfast in his own kitchen (rented or owned), mowing his own grass within his property (rented or as guest of its Thai owner), or erecting a ladder in his own condominium building (within an apartment or a commonly-owned hallway) and changing a light bulb?

All such actions require an "exertion of effort" and application of "knowledge" how to do them. All might very well be performed by formal employees of a business entity.

So, if there is no history of such prosecution, successful or not, of a foreigner for such actions, then much of this discussion is an academic exercise about how Thai law might be applied, in theory, equivalent to arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

If there has never been prosecution for violating labor laws with such scenarios, then I think the advice suggested by others makes sense: Just do it (discreetly), and don't worry too much about it.

I spoke to a farang owner of a small restaurant in Pattaya ( next to a well known bar near walking St ) many years ago, and he told me he couldn't even cook himself breakfast in the restaurant as he didn't have a WP. Shortly after that he sold up as couldn't take all the demands for money for various things like CCTV and music licence.

Anyone saying to disregard the chance of being done should remember the farang musicians arrested in Chiang Mai for taking part in a jam session, and then there is the Bridge club incident. TiT.

Personally, I wouldn't touch anything in the public domain, as if it got stuffed up for whatever reason, and someone got injured, for whatever reason, guess who is going to carry the can?

It was for that reason I paid an incompetent Thai so called electrician to install a shower heater even though he knew less about electrical installations than I did ( he wasn't going to use an earth till I made him ). If anyone got electrocuted by a faulty unit, it wasn't going to be me that got arrested.

[Richard W]

IMO only get done if have PO someone and they want revenge.

That's the practical answer. However, does one necessarily know that one has made an enemy?

[Don Mega]

IMO only get done if have PO someone and they want revenge.

That's the practical answer. However, does one necessarily know that one has made an enemy?

You need a WP to make enemies.

[seancbk]

Slightly different technically - all the examples you refer to relate to upkeep of one's own property - common areas of a condo are not in this bracket.

Well if the OP happened to be changing said light bulbs precisely when a team of Immigration officers decided to raid his condo looking for evil farangs working without a work permit, then possibly he might have a problem.

Otherwise he hasn't got even the slightest risk of any issue.

Even if someone in the condo called Immigration and told them they'd seen a farang changing the lightbulbs, unless there was video evidence or photographic proof, he could simply deny he had anything to do with the new bulbs that had mysteriously appeared.

I really wish people on this forum would just stop acting like it's the end of the world for someone to do a bit of 'work' without a WP.

In Hong Kong I employed someone to clean my house, do my laundry, shopping and a bunch of other things.

Here I do those things myself, although sometimes I pay the laundry to wash and iron my clothes because I'm too busy to do it myself.

However on the days I do my own laundry and iron my own shirts, I am taking a job from a Thai person and expending effort myself!! Gosh it sounds like I need a WP to do my laundry!!

[lkv]

However on the days I do my own laundry and iron my own shirts, I am taking a job from a Thai person and expending effort myself!! Gosh it sounds like I need a WP to do my laundry!!

Not precisely. You forgot about the mental activity prior to your laundry. Like...colours only, maybe some white, what softener etc.

Technically that's also work.

Perhaps a non B multiple for business would be suitable for you, although that's hard to get without a work permit.

Edited February 13, 2016 by lkv

[seancbk]

However on the days I do my own laundry and iron my own shirts, I am taking a job from a Thai person and expending effort myself!! Gosh it sounds like I need a WP to do my laundry!!

Not precisely. You forgot about the mental activity prior to your laundry. Like...colours only, maybe some white, what softener etc.

Technically that's also work.

Perhaps a non B multiple for business would be suitable for you, although that's hard to get without a work permit.

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP. You can however get a 90 day single entry Non B, then you apply for your WP to do laundry and once you have that you can apply for the 1 year non B.

[Maestro]

Removed off-topic posts and replies to them.

[aronp1]

Is it ok for me to push my own grocery cart at Tesco or Big C without a work permit? That is how ridiculous some people make this issue. Some make it sound like you can't do anything.

[LukKrueng]

Thai people and authorities are not THAT thick. No one is going to demand a WP for you to change a light bulb or working in your own garden. However, if you take on yourself the building maintenance as your everyday responsibility - then it's a job, whether paid for or not, and you will need a WP but I am pretty certain you can't get a WP for a maintenance job

[sandgroper2]

If you are changing a light bulb in a common area,you are taking a job away from a thai, who the condo management should hire to do the job. Fact, end of story.No correspondence will be entered into.

[thaibeachlovers]

IMO only get done if have PO someone and they want revenge.

That's the practical answer. However, does one necessarily know that one has made an enemy?

The only ones I know I made an enemy of were the female that started verbally abusing me and I in return insulted, and the travel agent that refused to talk to me and pretended I wasn't there, fortunately neither of which live near me, but it's possible to insult people without even knowing- one of the delights of living in LOS.

[lkv]

However on the days I do my own laundry and iron my own shirts, I am taking a job from a Thai person and expending effort myself!! Gosh it sounds like I need a WP to do my laundry!!

Not precisely. You forgot about the mental activity prior to your laundry. Like...colours only, maybe some white, what softener etc.

Technically that's also work.

Perhaps a non B multiple for business would be suitable for you, although that's hard to get without a work permit.

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP. You can however get a 90 day single entry Non B, then you apply for your WP to do laundry and once you have that you can apply for the 1 year non B.

The only problem I can see with that route is that you become liable for taxes, and once you're in the system as a tax payer (although you may be willing to pay the tax on the declared salary for the laundry), I would not be surprised if in the future they start chasing your overseas money as well (that you bring in the country) and make that taxable as well.

They are bleeding at the moment money wise I believe, the latest stunt was with the cigarettes which is quite a big jump percentage wise.

Edited February 14, 2016 by lkv

[Don Mega]

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP.

When did that happen ?

[lkv]

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP.

When did that happen ?

Right ok. So where do I get the non B multiples without a WP?

Unless I become a journalist perhaps.

Edited February 14, 2016 by lkv

[seancbk]

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP.

When did that happen ?

When I last applied (early 2015) for a one year multi B. I was told the new rules were that only people with work permits could get the full year visa.

Without a WP they would only issue a single entry non B.

It is of course possible that the rules have changed again or that different consulates have different rules.

FYI I enquired to the Thai Consulates in both Hull (where I have previously obtained 1 year Multi B's) and Cardiff. Both said no.

[seancbk]

However on the days I do my own laundry and iron my own shirts, I am taking a job from a Thai person and expending effort myself!! Gosh it sounds like I need a WP to do my laundry!!

Not precisely. You forgot about the mental activity prior to your laundry. Like...colours only, maybe some white, what softener etc.

Technically that's also work.

Perhaps a non B multiple for business would be suitable for you, although that's hard to get without a work permit.

You can't get a multi non B these days without a WP. You can however get a 90 day single entry Non B, then you apply for your WP to do laundry and once you have that you can apply for the 1 year non B.

The only problem I can see with that route is that you become liable for taxes, and once you're in the system as a tax payer (although you may be willing to pay the tax on the declared salary for the laundry), I would not be surprised if in the future they start chasing your overseas money as well (that you bring in the country) and make that taxable as well.

They are bleeding at the moment money wise I believe, the latest stunt was with the cigarettes which is quite a big jump percentage wise.

The laundry business is all cash in hand. Easy to pay only the absolute minimum in tax.

[Richard W]

The laundry business is all cash in hand. Easy to pay only the absolute minimum in tax.

Is the absolute minimum zero? How much does it cost to pay zero tax? Expenses can include getting someone to explain the forms.

[impulse]

I don't know which one, or what I could have possibly done, but I'm sure I have pissed off one of my well connected Thai neighbors who would love a chance to rat me out for changing a lightbulb in a common area.

I have no clue whether I'd need a WP to do it. So I'd hire a Thai for anything like that. Why risk it?

[bimmerbob]

If it required a work permit, so would changing oil in your car, cutting the grass in your yard or making home repairs which none do require a work permit.

I know this is a stupid troll post, but lets use some common sense.

...indeed common sense prevails......OP must be a complete nervous wreck to even ask the question in the first place.......if a WP was required, then it would extend to even flushing (exerting pressure) a public toilet.......what about the cases of aliens spotted cleaning up rubbish on the beach, and de-facing graffiti from billboards, etc.....were they arrested for not having a WP? Thailand will really be a laughing stock of the world if for a minute WPs were considered a legal requirement in these "common sense" areas. I'll put my coat on again.

[impulse]

If it required a work permit, so would changing oil in your car, cutting the grass in your yard or making home repairs which none do require a work permit.

I know this is a stupid troll post, but lets use some common sense.

...indeed common sense prevails......OP must be a complete nervous wreck to even ask the question in the first place.......if a WP was required, then it would extend to even flushing (exerting pressure) a public toilet.......what about the cases of aliens spotted cleaning up rubbish on the beach, and de-facing graffiti from billboards, etc.....were they arrested for not having a WP? Thailand will really be a laughing stock of the world if for a minute WPs were considered a legal requirement in these "common sense" areas. I'll put my coat on again.

Your flawed premise is that common sense is the same back home as it is in Asia. Google "bridge raid pattaya" for absolute proof that it isn't.

That flaw in thinking gets a lot of people in trouble. Including old fogeys playing bridge in the same place for 10 years. And dive instructors with WP's simple helping their customers to the boat with their gear. Google that one for a real head scratcher by western "common sense"...

Edited February 15, 2016 by impulse

[aronp1]

I don't know which one, or what I could have possibly done, but I'm sure I have pissed off one of my well connected Thai neighbors who would love a chance to rat me out for changing a lightbulb in a common area.

I have no clue whether I'd need a WP to do it. So I'd hire a Thai for anything like that. Why risk it?

The average (Thai) citizen really have no knowledge of WP'S. That is something that don't have to deal with unless they are a business owner that has hired foreiners before.

[bbi1]

It's funny how this topic about changing a light bulb came up & even funnier how many replies it got lol

[cigar7]

Thank you for lots of advice and opinions.

To summarize, it seems I can perform any activity, work or task on my own property. If you rent property it is deemed to be your property, to have and to hold as your own,temporarily, for the rental period.

Next, I can perform tasks, activities and work, outside of my residence which are required for daily life. I guess I can change the bulb without much worry since it seems reasonable to have light at night for safety and security of life.

I had to ask the original question because of past actions of Pattaya immigration officials. One friend got hauled into immigration for questioning and accused of working without a permit because he had Makro card. The official concluded that only businesses get Makro cards so he must be operating a business.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thank you for lots of advice and opinions.

To summarize, it seems I can perform any activity, work or task on my own property. If you rent property it is deemed to be your property, to have and to hold as your own,temporarily, for the rental period.

Next, I can perform tasks, activities and work, outside of my residence which are required for daily life. I guess I can change the bulb without much worry since it seems reasonable to have light at night for safety and security of life.

I had to ask the original question because of past actions of Pattaya immigration officials. One friend got hauled into immigration for questioning and accused of working without a permit because he had Makro card. The official concluded that only businesses get Makro cards so he must be operating a business.

See post #51 and ask yourself if anyone wants to "get" you before doing anything in a public area. Also, would the management lose face if it came out a farang was doing what they should have done?

Safest way is still to get the girlfriend to do the actual changing of the bulb. Inside your apartment change as many bulbs yourself as you like.

The issue isn't changing the lightbulb, the issue is if someone wants to use the changing of the lightbulb to "get" you.

Can't you buy a bulb and give it to a Thai neighbour to change?

[cigar7]

Thank you for lots of advice and opinions.

To summarize, it seems I can perform any activity, work or task on my own property. If you rent property it is deemed to be your property, to have and to hold as your own,temporarily, for the rental period.

Next, I can perform tasks, activities and work, outside of my residence which are required for daily life. I guess I can change the bulb without much worry since it seems reasonable to have light at night for safety and security of life.

I had to ask the original question because of past actions of Pattaya immigration officials. One friend got hauled into immigration for questioning and accused of working without a permit because he had Makro card. The official concluded that only businesses get Makro cards so he must be operating a business.

See post #51 and ask yourself if anyone wants to "get" you before doing anything in a public area. Also, would the management lose face if it came out a farang was doing what they should have done?

Safest way is still to get the girlfriend to do the actual changing of the bulb. Inside your apartment change as many bulbs yourself as you like.

The issue isn't changing the lightbulb, the issue is if someone wants to use the changing of the lightbulb to "get" you.

Can't you buy a bulb and give it to a Thai neighbour to change?

If it was only one light light bulb, but there are numerous lights that need to be repaired or replaced, so no Thai help.

But it seems I can do it legally because:

1. I need the lights working for my own safety and security to live a normal life - Without adequate lights, I can trip, fall, incur injury, be susceptible to crime (which occurs in dark places).

2. I do own part of the common property where the lights are located.

3. There is no payment or consideration paid to me.

[cigar7]

Just an update. I talked to a lawyer and he said that if you handle money - collect money - or handout money - that is generally considered "working" by immigration.

[elviajero]

Just an update. I talked to a lawyer and he said that if you handle money - collect money - or handout money - that is generally considered "working" by immigration.

I believe it's very simple. IMO.........

• If someone is employed by a company to work in Thailand they need a work permit regardless of the job/income, and the Alien Working (employment) Act applies.
• If someone is not employed, but carrying out any occupation that could be proven work as a means of earning a living, they are working illegally and subject to penalty under the Immigration Act.