VFS staff told us to change our visa application

[7by7]

<snip>had you read the conditions/eligibility criteria for Marriage Visitor Visa carefully you would have noticed that it does not have provisions for multiple entry. Unless otherwise stated visitors visas are single entries with specific reasons.

If that is true, why does it not say so in either the guidance to applicants, the guidance to ECOs nor the immigration rules.

If it is true, kindly explain the following extracts from the official Home Office guidance to ECOs I linked too earlier:

Entry Clearance Officers must obtain the authority of the Entry Clearance Manager before issuing a single-entry visit visa

Most visit visas allow the person to enter the UK multiple times during its period of validity

you must only issue a single-entry visit visa in certain cases

Unless there are grounds for not issuing a multi-entry...... visit visa you should issue the visa applied for.

When you've done that, explain the information on the VFS website which confirms that they play no part in the decision making process and are not allowed to give any advice.

[sandyf]

No country in the world allows multiple entries for a visitor willy nilly for obvious reasons. You need compelling reasons to secure a multiple entry visa. Now you know!!!!!!

That is a bit of a wild statement. I am from the UK and when we went to Canada last year my wife was issued with a multi entry visa valid for the remainder of her passport, about three and a half years at the time.

The Canadian system makes the UK look like amateurs.

[khundon]

Let us hope that there is not going to be a Sir Charles V.

[sir charles IV]

No country in the world allows multiple entries for a visitor willy nilly for obvious reasons. You need compelling reasons to secure a multiple entry visa. Now you know!!!!!!

Maybe you should re-read the guidance given to UK ECO's before making incorrect statements. Most UK visas permit multiple entries.

they don't by default.

[sir charles IV]

They know more about these things than you or I. Speaking to manager or complaining will only make you look arrogant and silly. I'm sure they talk about people like you in a joking manner after you leave their office. For the sake less complication I always get them to process my partners visas. A few dollars spent is worth the hassle you might face later. Live and learn.

You're either on the wind up or just ignorant of the facts. VFS are paperwork collectors, not immigration officers. I don't know what you mean by "always get them to process my partners visas". VFS collect applications and send to UKVI who process them. Applicants have no choice other than to comply with the process. As for "a few dollars spent", are you saying you pay VFS to check your applications? They make a very rudimentary check for obvious omissions, but that's it. And they do this anyway without payment. They aren't qualified to give immigration advice.

I really sympathise with the OP. My wife submitted a settlement visa application for her daughter last week. Had she listened to the staff at VFS she would have left to get her daughter's Thai I.D card translated into English by a translation service. Firstly, it's not a required document anyway and secondly, it already has English translations on it! Thankfully my wife politely refused, but God knows what else they could've asked for. It puts the applicant in a very awkward position.

Brewsterbudgen, I wish you all the best for a successful outcome.

no wind up here. VFS are not JUST paperwork collectors. That are sanctioned by respective embassies to assist applicants to submit "as complete as possible paperwork". This will ensure quicker determination of their visa (yes by the embassy) and assist them to apply for the "right" visa. In this case had he explained to them his intentions VFS would have given him the same advice they did. He'd have the visa obtained for his partner with no hassles. Live and learn.

[sir charles IV]

Let us hope that there is not going to be a Sir Charles V.

not yet but I'm working on it. A couple of potential future Dames but no Sir's as yet. I'll keep you posted!

[theoldgit]

No country in the world allows multiple entries for a visitor willy nilly for obvious reasons. You need compelling reasons to secure a multiple entry visa. Now you know!!!!!!

Maybe you should re-read the guidance given to UK ECO's before making incorrect statements. Most UK visas permit multiple entries.

they don't by default.

I'm sorry but you're wrong, they do by default.

[sir charles IV]

HomeVisas and immigrationTourist and short stay visas

Marriage Visitor

What you can and can’t do

You can use this visa to marry or enter into a civil partnership in the UK:

◦ within 6 months of your arrival

◦ in any location licensed for this purpose

You can’t:

◦ get public funds

◦ bring in family members (‘dependants’) - they must apply separately

◦ live in the UK for extended periods through frequent visits

◦ extend your visa or switch to another visa

◦ work - except for permitted activities related to your work or business overseas, eg attending meetings

study for more than 30 days - studying can’t be the main reason for your visit

For the type of visa he applied for the above has been stated. As you can see one cannot extend or switch visas. In case one doesn't read well it means if you apply for the marriage visitor visa, enter UK and be married within six months and leave. Anything other than that means a change of status rendering the visa invalid. Hence coming to UK on this visa, leaving UK and then coming back (multiple entry) is not permitted by this visa. Let me know if you wish for me to elaborate.

[brewsterbudgen]

They know more about these things than you or I. Speaking to manager or complaining will only make you look arrogant and silly. I'm sure they talk about people like you in a joking manner after you leave their office. For the sake less complication I always get them to process my partners visas. A few dollars spent is worth the hassle you might face later. Live and learn.

You're either on the wind up or just ignorant of the facts. VFS are paperwork collectors, not immigration officers. I don't know what you mean by "always get them to process my partners visas". VFS collect applications and send to UKVI who process them. Applicants have no choice other than to comply with the process. As for "a few dollars spent", are you saying you pay VFS to check your applications? They make a very rudimentary check for obvious omissions, but that's it. And they do this anyway without payment. They aren't qualified to give immigration advice.

I really sympathise with the OP. My wife submitted a settlement visa application for her daughter last week. Had she listened to the staff at VFS she would have left to get her daughter's Thai I.D card translated into English by a translation service. Firstly, it's not a required document anyway and secondly, it already has English translations on it! Thankfully my wife politely refused, but God knows what else they could've asked for. It puts the applicant in a very awkward position.

Brewsterbudgen, I wish you all the best for a successful outcome.

no wind up here. VFS are not JUST paperwork collectors. That are sanctioned by respective embassies to assist applicants to submit "as complete as possible paperwork". This will ensure quicker determination of their visa (yes by the embassy) and assist them to apply for the "right" visa. In this case had he explained to them his intentions VFS would have given him the same advice they did. He'd have the visa obtained for his partner with no hassles. Live and learn.

You couldn't be more wrong. Our intention is to give notice to marry in the UK and then return to Thailand, returning again to the UK for the ceremony 3 months later. The advice to change from a Marriage Visitors visa to a General Visitor visa was incorrect, as giving notice to marry is not allowed on a General Visitor visa.

Following my complaint and after speaking with a friend who has ECO contacts in Bangkok, I fully expect to receive the Marriage Visitor visa (as orginally applied for - multiple entry) and a refund for the General Visitor visa which was unnecessarily applied for.

It's only been 2 working days since the application, so I don't expect to hear for a week or so.

Of course it is possible that the visa will be refused for another reason, although I am fairly sure the application covered everything.

With respect, I'm not sure you are qualified to give such definitive information about this.

[theoldgit]

no wind up here. VFS are not JUST paperwork collectors. That are sanctioned by respective embassies to assist applicants to submit "as complete as possible paperwork". This will ensure quicker determination of their visa (yes by the embassy) and assist them to apply for the "right" visa. In this case had he explained to them his intentions VFS would have given him the same advice they did. He'd have the visa obtained for his partner with no hassles. Live and learn.

Who told you that they are sanctioned by respective embassies to act as you suggest?

We are talking about the UK here, not Australia.

VFS Global or its staffs are not authorised to advise/suggest the category or comment on the documents and duration of Visa issued.

[brewsterbudgen]

HomeVisas and immigrationTourist and short stay visas

Marriage Visitor

What you can and can’t do

You can use this visa to marry or enter into a civil partnership in the UK:

◦ within 6 months of your arrival

◦ in any location licensed for this purpose

You can’t:

◦ get public funds

◦ bring in family members (‘dependants’) - they must apply separately

◦ live in the UK for extended periods through frequent visits

◦ extend your visa or switch to another visa

◦ work - except for permitted activities related to your work or business overseas, eg attending meetings

study for more than 30 days - studying can’t be the main reason for your visit

For the type of visa he applied for the above has been stated. As you can see one cannot extend or switch visas. In case one doesn't read well it means if you apply for the marriage visitor visa, enter UK and be married within six months and leave. Anything other than that means a change of status rendering the visa invalid. Hence coming to UK on this visa, leaving UK and then coming back (multiple entry) is not permitted by this visa. Let me know if you wish for me to elaborate.

Please elaborate. Nothing I can see in what you have quoted from the UKVI website precludes marrying in 2 trips within the 6 months of the visa.

[7by7]

Sir Charles IV, nothing in the part of the guidance to applicants you have quoted, nor the parts you haven't, says that a marriage visit visa is only single entry.

You are correct, sort of, in saying that once the marriage has taken place then the reason for entering the UK no longer exists and so a subsequent attempt to enter on the same visa may raise questions.

But that is not the case here, as Brewsterbudgen explains above.

But Border Force officers will allow a further entry after the marriage; indeed there was a post from a member here last year whose wife entered on a marriage visit visa, they left briefly after the marriage and she was allowed back in, albeit after some brief questions from immigration at their port of entry.

I ask you again; what is it that you do not understand about the following direct quote from the Home Office guidance to ECOs?

Entry Clearance Officers must obtain the authority of the Entry Clearance Manager before issuing a single-entry visit visa (except for ADS or PPE visas).

Most visit visas allow the person to enter the UK multiple times during its period of validity except for Permitted Paid Engagements and Approved Destination Scheme.

For other visitors, you must only issue a single-entry visit visa in certain cases, such as (7b7 note: there is then a list of examples, which does not include marriage visits).

Unless there are grounds for not issuing a multi-entry or long term visit visa, you should issue the visa applied for.

In addition, what do you fail to comprehend about the information on the VFS website?

Your visa application will be processed and decided by UK Visas and Immigration staff. VFS Global does not, play any part in or influence the outcome of your visa application.

VFS Global or its staffs (sic) are not authorised to advise/suggest the category or comment on the documents and duration of Visa issued.

If you still refuse to accept that you are wrong, kindly explain how it is that what you say is the opposite of what the Home Office say about multi entry visit visas and VFS say about what they are and are not authorised by UKVI to do.

[sometimewoodworker]

No country in the world allows multiple entries for a visitor willy nilly for obvious reasons. You need compelling reasons to secure a multiple entry visa. Now you know!!!!!!

Maybe you should re-read the guidance given to UK ECO's before making incorrect statements. Most UK visas permit multiple entries.

they don't by default.

They do by default, single or restricted entry visas are a special case, and an ECO MUST obtain authority from an ECM to issue them.

Remedial reading classes can be arranged.

[bobrussell]

I can confirm (as have others) that a Marriage Visit Visa is multi entry. It is perfectly acceptable to come on a preparatory visit prior to the actual marriage. It makes sense to note this in the application so the ECO is aware of the plans. It also makes sense to explain this to any Immigration Officer encountered at the airport if necessary.

Weddings don't just happen, they take planning so it cannot be that unexpected for preparatory visits to take place. At a push it is even possible to get a further Marriage Visit Visa should there be unexpected delays but this would require thorough explaining.

Once married it is legal to use the visa for further visits but, as we found out, an immigration officer might require some convincing! Technically they may just be right that once married the purpose of the visa has been served and it is no longer valid!

The clue really is in the part of the visa that states MULTI-ENTRY!!

[brewsterbudgen]

I can confirm (as have others) that a Marriage Visit Visa is multi entry. It is perfectly acceptable to come on a preparatory visit prior to the actual marriage. It makes sense to note this in the application so the ECO is aware of the plans. It also makes sense to explain this to any Immigration Officer encountered at the airport if necessary.

Weddings don't just happen, they take planning so it cannot be that unexpected for preparatory visits to take place. At a push it is even possible to get a further Marriage Visit Visa should there be unexpected delays but this would require thorough explaining.

Once married it is legal to use the visa for further visits but, as we found out, an immigration officer might require some convincing! Technically they may just be right that once married the purpose of the visa has been served and it is no longer valid!

The clue really is in the part of the visa that states MULTI-ENTRY!!

Cheers. My sponsor letter laid out our arrangements very explicitly, plus we have confirmation of the date to give notice to marry (in April) and then a marriage ceremony booked for August.

Despite being "persuaded" by the VFS staff that a Marriage Visitor visa wasn't multiple entry and therefore we should apply for a General Visitor visa instead, I am relatively confident that the supporting documentation, which makes reference to a Marriage Visitor visa, will allow UKVI to use common sense and issue the correct visa!

[Boycie]

I can confirm (as have others) that a Marriage Visit Visa is multi entry. It is perfectly acceptable to come on a preparatory visit prior to the actual marriage. It makes sense to note this in the application so the ECO is aware of the plans. It also makes sense to explain this to any Immigration Officer encountered at the airport if necessary.

Weddings don't just happen, they take planning so it cannot be that unexpected for preparatory visits to take place. At a push it is even possible to get a further Marriage Visit Visa should there be unexpected delays but this would require thorough explaining.

Once married it is legal to use the visa for further visits but, as we found out, an immigration officer might require some convincing! Technically they may just be right that once married the purpose of the visa has been served and it is no longer valid!

The clue really is in the part of the visa that states MULTI-ENTRY!!

Cheers. My sponsor letter laid out our arrangements very explicitly, plus we have confirmation of the date to give notice to marry (in April) and then a marriage ceremony booked for August.

Despite being "persuaded" by the VFS staff that a Marriage Visitor visa wasn't multiple entry and therefore we should apply for a General Visitor visa instead, I am relatively confident that the supporting documentation, which makes reference to a Marriage Visitor visa, will allow UKVI to use common sense and issue the correct visa!

Wish you the best of luck brewsterburgen but in my experience the UKVI doesn't do common sense.

Please report back and let us all know the outcome.

[bobrussell]

UKVI do not generally do common sense but I don't doubt that a suitable visa will be issued. Best of British getting any refunds from them though.

UKVI never make mistakes, even at appeal they rarely acknowledge errors. They sometimes just don't turn up!

All errors are by the applicant and explanations are rarely offered even if you complain.

[brewsterbudgen]

Thanks. They are certainly quick as I've had the email to say her passport is ready for collection. The application was submitted on Thursday, she was phoned and "interviewed" for 10 minutes on Tuesday and I got the email to say a decision had been made on Wednesday.

If a General Visitor visa has been issued instead of a Marriage Visitor visa how would I go about trying to change it? There is little point in us going to the UK if we can't go ahead with the marriage arrangements.

[sir charles IV]

Oh dear. Some people just don't get it. I give up. However you wish to interpret things it ultimately comes down to the law as interpreted by the authorities. I.e. Need additional visitor visa if holder of a marriage visitor intends to go back before the wedding. This is what he needed to do and he did it. Live and learn (or read the law objectively as the laws are).

[brewsterbudgen]

I picked up my girlfriend's passport this morning and and I'm pleased to report that a Marriage Visit visa (multiple entry) has been issued. I also received an email from UKVI, apologising for the misleading advice given by the VFS staff (see below). Now all I need is for the 2nd visa application fee to be refunded!

Thanks to everyone who commented and advised. This Forum really is useful - and the comments from 7by7, TonyM and theoldgit were particularly reassuring as I was getting myself rather stressed about the situation. A special mention too, to Sir Charles IV whose contributions certainly gave the thread legs, even if his knowledge and understanding of the situation was rather lacking!

Dear ......

I apologise if the advice VFS gave was unclear and unhelpful. I have reminded them of the rules and their role; that they are contracted to accept and deliver applications only. Whilst I acknowledge that they believed they were helping in this instance I also appreciate that this confused the issue.

To rectify this I have ensured that your fiancée’s application has been considered in light of your comments. The assessing Entry Clearance Officer was aware of your concerns-and your fiancée’s intentions- and the application was assessed accordingly.

An email was dispatched immediately after assessment advising of collection arrangements. Whilst I appreciate that your dealings with VFS were unhelpful I hope that our action to rectify this has reassured you.

Yours sincerely

Customer Manager

Customer Service and Correspondence Unit

Burma, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam

UK Visas and Immigration, Home Office.

British Embassy, 14 Wireless Road, Bangkok, 10330, Thailand

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-visas-and-immigration

www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi-outside-uk

[theoldgit]

Excellent news, I'm glad the ECO applied their common sense, credit where it's due and also credit to the manager for acknowledging the shortcomings of VFS.

Hope you both have great trips, all the very best.

[Donutz]

Good to hear that the ECO applied common sense and corrected VFS (perhaps one day they will learn?). I wonder if they know that the outsourced customer service isn't much help in most cases with copy/paste answers that often don't come anywere close to the question and contain tekst which seems to come straight from the webpage on visa info... I guess they do but tourism shouldn't cost the treasure a single pound? /rant

[7by7]

I'm glad that common sense prevailed and your fiance got the visa she actually required.

Keep pushing for the refund of the fee paid for the unnecessary second application, and please let us know how you get on.

Best wishes for both trips and the wedding.

[7by7]

Oh dear. Some people just don't get it. I give up. However you wish to interpret things it ultimately comes down to the law as interpreted by the authorities. I.e. Need additional visitor visa if holder of a marriage visitor intends to go back before the wedding. This is what he needed to do and he did it. Live and learn (or read the law objectively as the laws are).

There is only one person posting in this topic who doesn't get it: you.

You have repeatedly ignored the Home Office guidance which clearly states that, except for permitted paid engagements and the approved destination scheme, unless the ECO has grounds for limiting the number of entries, and obtains authorisation from their ECM to do so, they must issue a multi entry visit visa.

You have ignored the post from a member whose now wife held a multi entry marriage visit visa and used it to enter the UK at least twice; the second time after the marriage.

Will you also ignore Brewsterbudgen's reply from UKVI confirming that not only was the 'advice' from VFS wrong, but that they should not have offered any advice in the first place.

Will you also ignore the part of the reply which states that the ECO was aware of their intentions, i.e. two entries, when assessing the application?

Will you also ignore the fact that the ECO issued a multi entry marriage visit visa?

Will you finally man up and admit you were wrong?

[bobrussell]

Oh dear. Some people just don't get it. I give up. However you wish to interpret things it ultimately comes down to the law as interpreted by the authorities. I.e. Need additional visitor visa if holder of a marriage visitor intends to go back before the wedding. This is what he needed to do and he did it. Live and learn (or read the law objectively as the laws are).

Oh deary me! Some people really don't get it! Time for us all to give up! The law, as interpreted by the authorities is that a marriage visit visa is multi-entry by default. It is printed on the vignette! Multi-visit means it is acceptable to visit on multiple occasions unless there is reason for the authorities to believe circumstances have changed sufficiently to withdraw the visa.

The OP took steps to make sure the correct visa was applied for but was misinformed by a company that allows some staff members to exceed their authority and give advice.

Hopefully everyone has lived and learned that many of the regulars on this site do know quite a lot about visas!

Objective enough?

To the OP: fight to get your money back as a matter of principle and let us know how you get on. Well done!

Edited March 11, 2016 by bobrussell

[theoldgit]

Nonsense post removed.

[brewsterbudgen]

I'm glad that common sense prevailed and your fiance got the visa she actually required.

Keep pushing for the refund of the fee paid for the unnecessary second application, and please let us know how you get on.

Best wishes for both trips and the wedding.

Thanks.

I have submitted a refund request through the Visa4UK site, using the GWF number that was not used, and the request has been received. I'll keep you posted!

[TCA]

Great news brewsterbudgen. It sounds like the system worked on this occasion and common sense prevailed. If only this was the norm instead of the exception! These situations are very stressful so glad you got it sorted and hopefully the refund for the other visa happens as well.

All the best for the trip and wedding. I'll presume that sir charles IV's invitation has gone mysteriously missing in the post!

[vulcan903]

Don't forget in the UK you have to allow 70 days notice to marry an non EU person. Normally it's 28 days but you have to allow 70. I was heading for an early summer wedding in the UK and it will now be a late September one! If she gets the visa.

[brewsterbudgen]

Don't forget in the UK you have to allow 70 days notice to marry an non EU person. Normally it's 28 days but you have to allow 70. I was heading for an early summer wedding in the UK and it will now be a late September one! If she gets the visa.

It's not 70 days according to the West Sussex Registry that we have used. We have to wait 9 clear days after landing before we "give notice'. We have the appointment to do this booked. Then I think it was another 18 days after this before we could actually get married. We decided to wait much longer so we are going back in early August for the wedding. The ceremony has been booked and paid for and I included all the paperwork in her visa application.

I had lengthy email correspondence and phone calls with West Sussex Registry about the procedure for marrying a non-EU citizen, before I went ahead.