Haze starts to cover Phayao despite 60-day burning ban

[vivid]

will get in those high places........

just call it an early Sonkram

That happened in Indonesia a few months ago.

[vivid]

Edited March 25, 2016 by vivid

[villagefarang]

Absolutely right in criticizing me. I will be evacuating the 27th at the latest Landing at the airport today was unbelievable. Almost no visibility and you could smell the cinders. Now in Chiang Rai, the air is thick. I walked over to that joke of a temporary bus station to see if I could get a ticket to Chiang Mai asap, I give credit to the buses for turning off the bus engines. I haven't experienced anything like this before, and it's not being treated as the public health crisis that it is. The government isn't being honest on how dangerous, deadly and damaging the air quality is. There needs to be immediate action now, even if it means using live fire on the people setting the fires. Yes, live fire. Would you let an arsonist burn your house down or poison you? The army has all sorts of helicopters, personnel and vehicles at its disposal. It needs to deploys and stop this now. The people setting the fires know what they are doing is wrong and they have been told to stop. They don't give a sh*t, because they know they can do it. Shoot a few of them in the fields, force them to experience the damage, confiscate their lands etc. and they'll get the message. It's war. This could be stopped in a few days with some leadership. It's disgusting. If the Thais don't care and the government doesn't care, then screw them. it's not worth getting aggravated about. Foreigners should just leave and let these people enjoy the death spiral.

If you are thinking you will get some respite by taking a bus to Chiang Mai, you should probably read the current comments in the Chiang Mai Forum. They say today is their worst day yet.

[vivid]

There are 2 other parts, but this is the final one

[VincentRJ]

There needs to be immediate action now, even if it means using live fire on the people setting the fires. Yes, live fire. Would you let an arsonist burn your house down or poison you? The army has all sorts of helicopters, personnel and vehicles at its disposal. It needs to deploys and stop this now. The people setting the fires know what they are doing is wrong and they have been told to stop. They don't give a sh*t, because they know they can do it. Shoot a few of them in the fields, force them to experience the damage, confiscate their lands etc. and they'll get the message. It's war. This could be stopped in a few days with some leadership. It's disgusting. If the Thais don't care and the government doesn't care, then screw them. it's not worth getting aggravated about. Foreigners should just leave and let these people enjoy the death spiral.

This idea is just crazy, Geriatrickid. You need to think things through a bit more, and learn from history.

The people doing the burn-off are more exposed to the smoke and particulate carbon than people who live in cities some distance away. The health of these farmers is probably not affected as much as those who live in the cities, because the farmers lead a more healthy lifestyle with constant physical exercise, and possibly because the pollution they are exposed to is not compounded with exhaust fumes from motor vehicles and coal-fired power stations.

If the Thai government were to impose a hard crack-down on burn-off practices, sending helicopters with police or army personnel to areas that have been set on fire, to arrest the perpetrators and bring them to trial, I can imagine an enormous build-up of resentment amongst surrounding community members in the area.

You might think such action is quite reasonable, but the farmers might not. It's the perception that counts. If any group feels unfairly discriminated against, then disastrous consequences can follow.

I'll give one specific example; the current situation in Nepal. Almost a year ago, Nepal had a devastating earthquake resulting in significant loss of life and a huge number of homes destroyed. International aid came to the rescue and the country was gradually recovering.

About 6 months after the earthquake, the Nepalese government ratified its new constitution, which had been a matter of continuing discussion for a number of years.

Unfortunately, an ethnic group called the Madhesi, who occupied an area in Nepal adjoining India, felt the new constitution discriminated against them. They got angry. Protests resulted. The police and army cracked down. A few deaths resulted. The conflict escalated. The Madhesi in retaliation began attacking the Indian fuel tankers which passed through their province adjoining the Indian border, and which was the main source of fuel for the whole of Nepal. The Indian government advised the drivers of fuel tankers to avoid Nepal for their own safety. As a result, for several months, up to and including the present time, Nepal has suffered from an extreme shortage of fuel.

Aid supplies destined for remote communities were not able to be delivered. Tourism fell off because hotels couldn't even get the gas in order to cook breakfast. What a disaster! And all because of a perception amongst a particular group that they had been discriminated against. It's the perception that counts.

For those who are interested in details of the Madhesi problem, I've attached a couple of links.

http://www.madhesiyouth.com/political/why-madhesi-resentment-against-the-constitution/

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/NepalsNewConstitution_hbjha_240915

[Berkshire]

Absolutely right in criticizing me. I will be evacuating the 27th at the latest Landing at the airport today was unbelievable. Almost no visibility and you could smell the cinders. Now in Chiang Rai, the air is thick. I walked over to that joke of a temporary bus station to see if I could get a ticket to Chiang Mai asap, I give credit to the buses for turning off the bus engines. I haven't experienced anything like this before, and it's not being treated as the public health crisis that it is. The government isn't being honest on how dangerous, deadly and damaging the air quality is. There needs to be immediate action now, even if it means using live fire on the people setting the fires. Yes, live fire. Would you let an arsonist burn your house down or poison you? The army has all sorts of helicopters, personnel and vehicles at its disposal. It needs to deploys and stop this now. The people setting the fires know what they are doing is wrong and they have been told to stop. They don't give a sh*t, because they know they can do it. Shoot a few of them in the fields, force them to experience the damage, confiscate their lands etc. and they'll get the message. It's war. This could be stopped in a few days with some leadership. It's disgusting. If the Thais don't care and the government doesn't care, then screw them. it's not worth getting aggravated about. Foreigners should just leave and let these people enjoy the death spiral.

If you are thinking you will get some respite by taking a bus to Chiang Mai, you should probably read the current comments in the Chiang Mai Forum. They say today is their worst day yet.

Yeap, really bad in Chiang Mai today. I also checked the CR AQI and miraculously, the air appears excellent now. I guess all that bad CR smoke has migrated down to CM. Lucky us.

[vivid]

1200hr

36t Chiang Mai

PM2.5 = 207 ug/m3

Looks like the smoke got blown Southwards, due to the high pressure system descending from China.

Edited March 25, 2016 by vivid

[geriatrickid]

Yes, it looks like I am being heavy fisted. However, I do appreciate who and what is involved and responsible. Years after year, education and information was provided. Year after year, the media was filled with the stories of the costs of the burning. Year after year, warnings were given to many of the land users who are also poachers and land encroachers to stop their burning. Year after year, threats were made with no enforcement. How many people have ever been charged and convicted? This situation has been in crisis mode since the 90's. It just gets worse.

The army is very good at enforcing its ban on public gatherings in many Issan villages. It is good at imposing curfews and roadblocks and of searching alleged political agitator's homes. Yet, it cannot undertake field surveillance, nor stop the very noticeable arson. How difficult is it to enforce the current laws on the books and to hold the land holders responsible for the burning?

Apparently, it's quite alright for the arsonists to slowly kill people and destroy the environment. all because it isn't an immediate act. What would your reaction be to my burning tires next door to your home or sending toxic waste your way such that it poisoned you? When people are engaged in violent acts which do harm, it is morally permissible to stop them from doing so. A few dead arsonists will make it clear that arson is bad. There will be no uprisings, no massive protests as the majority of people hate the arsonists. The reality is that people do nothing when more egregious actions are taken. Unlikely anyone will be concerned about a few angry arsonist families.

What isn't being discussed is that the burning is occurring in areas which are supposedly protected lands. You know those steep mountain slopes? Sorry, but much of it is reportedly Crown land and subject of years of encroachment and ownership dispute. Squatted on first, and then burnt.

Yea, yea, I know. Not my country, not my business. very true.

[villagefarang]

Judging from the likes given to some posts, hate and violence have found supporters here in Chiang Rai. Fortunately it is not up to you guys.

[SoilSpoil]

Judging from the likes given to some posts, hate and violence have found supporters here in Chiang Rai. Fortunately it is not up to you guys.

A tad judgemental and melodramatic, wouldn't you say?

[geriatrickid]

Judging from the likes given to some posts, hate and violence have found supporters here in Chiang Rai. Fortunately it is not up to you guys.

It isn't hateful nor violent to protect oneself and others from an assault. I am up here to see first hand some things. Trust me when I say it wasn't my idea, nor my wish. One doesn't pop in to CEI for a night at a brothel.

Yes, you are right, none of us can do anything directly. However, I'd say the handling of this year's burning is going to be a factor in some investment decisions.

Edited March 25, 2016 by geriatrickid

[canuckamuck]

I get Geri kid's astonishment at what is going on here. But I think he sees the villagers as heartless beasts who are inflicting this condition on the rest of us just because they can. Actually they hate the smoke too, but they see it as a necessary evil because they want to plant a crop and get paid. Composting a mountainside is beyond their understanding and is far too labor intensive to trump a 2 litre bottle of diesel and a lighter. The right direction for change lies in deducing the right methods and teaching the people how to clear their land in a sensible and renewable manner. Or how to use permaculture and work with the natural elements. But people aren't going to know how to do it different just because Geri got on a bus and didn't like what he saw.

They need to be shown and if it is uneconomical to do it better, in a healthy way. The government (or better yet CP) needs to provide incentives.

Until then, locking up and shooting peasant farmers, trying to scratch together enough money to feed their kids, is not going to do more than provide a scapegoat the for millions of others who will continue to slash and burn.

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

Edited March 25, 2016 by canuckamuck

[VincentRJ]

What would your reaction be to my burning tires next door to your home or sending toxic waste your way such that it poisoned you?

I'd probably advise you that it would be even more dangerous for your health than for mine because you would be closer to the toxic fumes.

The practice of 'slash and burn' goes back many centuries. It's traditional and is not correctly described as 'arson' which is a malicious act intended to cause harm.

The solutions are clear. Rather than spend huge amounts of money on police, helicopters, court cases and prison, plus the creation of new problems of deep resentment and fight-back, resulting in yet more expense in tackling the insurgency, let's act more intelligently and spend that money on education on alternative methods of agriculture, and the provision of cheap, subsidised biochar kilns, biomass shredders, and free instruction on permaculture and hugelkultur methods of farming.

[angiolo]

This is a serious issue with no simple easy solutions but you wouldn’t know that by the one-liners regurgitated on to this page. It involves the livelihood of some of the poorest members of society, intertwined with the greed of some of the largest corporations.

Without affordable alternatives to burning, what good does it do to threaten a farmer who is already in debt up to his eyeballs, with little else to lose? His only real alternative is to be more devious in an attempt to avoid getting caught.

What makes more sense, to go after millions of poor farmers with small backyard burns or a couple of major corporations contracting out millions of rai of corn production and subsequent burning. This won’t be solved overnight or without a comprehensive plan to deal with both ends of the supply and demand chain.

Affordable is to leave the vegitation on or in the ground where it will eventually provide soil nutrition Regards Angiolo

[VincentRJ]

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

Probably Laos as well. Attached is a detailed map showing the recent fires during a 7 day period. The whole region which includes Laos, Myanmar and Northern Thailand seems all equally bad.

[VincentRJ]

Why is the above map low resolution? It's supposed to be 3mb. That's the size of the jpeg I attached.

[vivid]

VincentRJ, nope it's 91kb.

[villagefarang]

I get Geri kid's astonishment at what is going on here. But I think he sees the villagers as heartless beasts who are inflicting this condition on the rest of us just because they can. Actually they hate the smoke too, but they see it as a necessary evil because they want to plant a crop and get paid. Composting a mountainside is beyond their understanding and is far too labor intensive to trump a 2 litre bottle of diesel and a lighter. The right direction for change lies in deducing the right methods and teaching the people how to clear their land in a sensible and renewable manner. Or how to use permaculture and work with the natural elements. But people aren't going to know how to do it different just because Geri got on a bus and didn't like what he saw.

They need to be shown and if it is uneconomical to do it better, in a healthy way. The government (or better yet CP) needs to provide incentives.

Until then, locking up and shooting peasant farmers, trying to scratch together enough money to feed their kids, is not going to do more than provide a scapegoat the for millions of others who will continue to slash and burn.

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

Well said.

[canuckamuck]

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

Probably Laos as well. Attached is a detailed map showing the recent fires during a 7 day period. The whole region which includes Laos, Myanmar and Northern Thailand seems all equally bad.

Fires during the past 7 days.jpg

I overlaid the Thai borders so you can see that Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai are pretty well behaved these last 7 days; compared to the inferno you would normally see this time of year. But Phayao, Lampang and Mae Hong Song seemed to be undeterred by the ban. Also you can see that Burma is out doing us by a huge margin and this time of year that is where the prevailing wind comes from.

I think the reduction in burning in Thailand is remarkable, but Burma is out to kill us all apparently

[VincentRJ]

VincentRJ, nope it's 91kb.

I know, but the image I attached was 3mb, after decompressing. Why? That's my question. All the images I've recently attached have appeared only as thumbnails. Is my operating system (Windows 7 professional) not compatible?

[Bardeh]

VincentRJ, nope it's 91kb.

I know, but the image I attached was 3mb, after decompressing. Why? That's my question. All the images I've recently attached have appeared only as thumbnails. Is my operating system (Windows 7 professional) not compatible?

No, it's likely the forum software does its own compression to prevent huge images from being posted in threads, slowing down those with low-bandwidth connections.

[VincentRJ]

I overlaid the Thai borders so you can see that Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai are pretty well behaved these last 7 days; compared to the inferno you would normally see this time of year. But Phayao, Lampang and Mae Hong Song seemed to be undeterred by the ban. Also you can see that Burma is out doing us by a huge margin and this time of year that is where the prevailing wind comes from.

I think the reduction in burning in Thailand is remarkable, but Burma is out to kill us all apparently

Thanks for that. Good idea! There seems to be a particularly bad patch in the most southern part of Laos, to the west of Vientiane. I guess that would affect people living near the Laos/Thai border. However, there are no major cities in that part of Thailand so perhaps it's not perceived as being a major problem. I think Loei might be fairly close to that part of Laos. The most dense areas of burn-off definitely seem to be the parts of Burma adjoining the Thai border.

I've tried to create a more detailed map of the area, as attached. The message I get next to the 'Attach Files' heading is (Max. single file size: 100MB). The file I'm attaching is only 4.5MB uncompressed, and 2.5MB when compressed into jpeg.

[VincentRJ]

I'll try again using Google Chrome as my browser. Perhaps that's the problem.

[Randell]

Even though you are finding it difficult . I appreciate your effort, totally beyond my ability by a mile. And a picture is worth a 1000, words as they say. It really helps put it into perspective that Thailand has made a lot of improvement on this from other years.

thanks again Vincent RJ

Randell

[harrry]

I get Geri kid's astonishment at what is going on here. But I think he sees the villagers as heartless beasts who are inflicting this condition on the rest of us just because they can. Actually they hate the smoke too, but they see it as a necessary evil because they want to plant a crop and get paid. Composting a mountainside is beyond their understanding and is far too labor intensive to trump a 2 litre bottle of diesel and a lighter. The right direction for change lies in deducing the right methods and teaching the people how to clear their land in a sensible and renewable manner. Or how to use permaculture and work with the natural elements. But people aren't going to know how to do it different just because Geri got on a bus and didn't like what he saw.

They need to be shown and if it is uneconomical to do it better, in a healthy way. The government (or better yet CP) needs to provide incentives.

Until then, locking up and shooting peasant farmers, trying to scratch together enough money to feed their kids, is not going to do more than provide a scapegoat the for millions of others who will continue to slash and burn.

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

They want to plant a crop and get paid so they steal......yes steal the land from the people of Thailand and then destroy the ecostructure there. If they want to be paid they can pay all the costs and not just the 2 litres of petrol.

Too many people here sound like Tobaco manafacturers of the past...it is not harmfull.

Well. it is and it is the people here that suffer...my Mother In Law, my nieces and all the people here. The should not have to.

[geriatrickid]

I get Geri kid's astonishment at what is going on here. But I think he sees the villagers as heartless beasts who are inflicting this condition on the rest of us just because they can. Actually they hate the smoke too, but they see it as a necessary evil because they want to plant a crop and get paid. Composting a mountainside is beyond their understanding and is far too labor intensive to trump a 2 litre bottle of diesel and a lighter. The right direction for change lies in deducing the right methods and teaching the people how to clear their land in a sensible and renewable manner. Or how to use permaculture and work with the natural elements. But people aren't going to know how to do it different just because Geri got on a bus and didn't like what he saw.

They need to be shown and if it is uneconomical to do it better, in a healthy way. The government (or better yet CP) needs to provide incentives.

Until then, locking up and shooting peasant farmers, trying to scratch together enough money to feed their kids, is not going to do more than provide a scapegoat the for millions of others who will continue to slash and burn.

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

If only it was a simple as you indicate. There is an erroneous assumption that poverty is the cause, and I direct your attention to the national GDP/GPP numbers. Chiang Rai is wealthier and better off than most of the North East and upper central regions. This does include the impact of the large amounts of foreign aid that has literally poured into the region for decades. Oh yes, I have heard of the plight of the poor hill tribes people etc. However, the amounts spent on their assistance seems to be overlooked. The "poor farmers" of the Chiang Rai region have received far more per capita in national subsidies and foreign aid than other parts of Thailand. Again, the North East has received the short end of the stick. My point is that the claims of poor farmers just trying to get by, is misleading. They are much better off than the farmers of the deep south and Issan.

Based upon the schedules of land ownership, the assumption that these are just individual subsistence farmers trying to get by is false. Large tracts of the land are owned or controlled by certain family blocs. The tenant farmers in many cases are just being told to go ahead and burn. Other portions of land are encroachments on supposed land reserves and crown lands. Yes, there are many individuals who burn, but there are a number of people who know better and who are in a position not to burn who continue to allow the burning on their lands. Connections, connections, more connections and political power bases. I often read of the big old bad boys of Bangkok. Well, the ones up North are just as big and bad, with the exception they are cruder and ruder.

There is repeated mention of education. Come on now.You know that there have been multiple efforts made, Posters, billboards, home visits etc. There was even the subsidy payments and distribution of fertilizer plan. Successive central governments tried. What was missing was enforcement.

I certainly am not advocating widescale slaughter of the arsonists. However, a couple people in each of the worst areas arrested and charged would be nice. Shooting a few of the arsonists as they set fires would put an end to the crisis quickly .IMO, they burn because they know they can get away with it, and the local powers don't do anything because some of them are implicated in the burning. The current crisis is all part of the endemic culture of corruption.

Anyway, no point me flogging a dead horse. You poor folks have to live with this. I don't . Between the dengue, TB, malaria, lack of quality health care and the dangerous air quality, you have enough issues to deal with and don't need my negative views. Chok dee.

[canuckamuck]

I get Geri kid's astonishment at what is going on here. But I think he sees the villagers as heartless beasts who are inflicting this condition on the rest of us just because they can. Actually they hate the smoke too, but they see it as a necessary evil because they want to plant a crop and get paid. Composting a mountainside is beyond their understanding and is far too labor intensive to trump a 2 litre bottle of diesel and a lighter. The right direction for change lies in deducing the right methods and teaching the people how to clear their land in a sensible and renewable manner. Or how to use permaculture and work with the natural elements. But people aren't going to know how to do it different just because Geri got on a bus and didn't like what he saw.

They need to be shown and if it is uneconomical to do it better, in a healthy way. The government (or better yet CP) needs to provide incentives.

Until then, locking up and shooting peasant farmers, trying to scratch together enough money to feed their kids, is not going to do more than provide a scapegoat the for millions of others who will continue to slash and burn.

PS: in my part of Chiang Rai, I haven't seen a single burning field since the ban started about 5 weeks ago. In fact even when I have travelled further out, there is no burning anywhere here. Yet today visibility was hardly more than a kilometre. So I know for sure, A lot of this stuff is coming out of Burma. And what can be done about that?

They want to plant a crop and get paid so they steal......yes steal the land from the people of Thailand and then destroy the ecostructure there. If they want to be paid they can pay all the costs and not just the 2 litres of petrol.

Too many people here sound like Tobaco manafacturers of the past...it is not harmfull.

Well. it is and it is the people here that suffer...my Mother In Law, my nieces and all the people here. The should not have to.

And the right action for the zero assets, subsistence farmers is?

[villagefarang]

I think the historical reference would be let them eat cake.

[vivid]

Too many people here sound like Tobaco manafacturers of the past...it is not harmfull.

Well. it is and it is the people here that suffer...my Mother In Law, my nieces and all the people here. The should not have to.

Last year, Singapore and Malaysia were quite affected by the Indonesian haze from end of August to 1st Nov. I posted some vids 1 page back.

Brunei and S Thailand (Phuket/Hatyai/Surathani/Narathiwat/Yala) were affected by a week or so and the smoke travelled to as far as Cambodia/Vietnam/Brunei/Guam/possibly Sri Lanka and Madagascar depending on the wind direction or influence of typhoons.

My colleague's 2 kids had been in and out of the A&E + locum GP for quite a few times, spent about the equivalent of ~ 30k baht. Retail shops were totally stripped bare of air purifiers, but luckily disposable N95s were still available (though obviously you can't wear them for long periods).

I had a total of about 2000 m3/hr of HEPA filtration from several air purifiers, about 500 m3/hr at my parent's place, and 150 m3/hr at my grandma's. Needed that because of 2 young kids and my parents take care of them when we are at work.

There isn't a need to wear a N95 if you were out there for short periods, but we wore one nevertheless since we bought our N95s very cheaply (Amazon, 1 box of 9210 20pcs were usd 4.05, free shipping to Singapore also!! Bought quite a few boxes). We did not have any issues with the haze, luckily.

Edited March 26, 2016 by vivid

[villagefarang]

Has anyone noticed how much better the air is today?