Muslims

[Goat Roper]

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers,.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists , bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names?

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

I want to thank you all, this topic has produced some of the most interesting and entertaining comments I can ever imagine and I think this particular topic is on most everyone's minds these days and for sure is on mine but you folks have given me a completely new leash on the Arabs/Muslims/Islam/shiteheads etc.,etc.

I have a much better understanding now even though I have worked(under boss pressure) with some of these Muslims over the years and my opinions of these people has been come by honestly and "On the ground", so I have just one thing to say, "Keep on-a keeping on", you folks are better than great!!!!

[the gentleman]

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists, bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names?

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

sounds like an anti black post to me!

[Georgie-Porgie]

You should know!

[kurgen]

Crap joke, no punchline.

[Boon Mee]

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers,.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists , bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names? 

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

I want to thank you all, this topic has produced some of the most interesting and entertaining comments I can ever imagine and I think this particular topic is on most everyone's minds these days and for sure is on mine but you folks have given me a completely new leash on the Arabs/Muslims/Islam/shiteheads etc.,etc.

I have a much better understanding now even though I have worked(under boss pressure) with some of these Muslims over the years and my opinions of these people has been come by honestly and "On the ground", so I have just one thing to say, "Keep on-a keeping on", you folks are better than great!!!!

Thanks, Goat Roper...it is one of the better threads in a while. Much better than whooping-up on elco again!

[tutsiwarrior]

sigh...yeah, I agree...this discussion should be moved to the bear pit where hysterical zionist twaddle belongs.

curious that someone that admires buddhism would use the analogy of black folks threatening white folks and massive murderous retaliation to describe any conflict...

to re-state my argument, there is a connection between the present pervasive militant Islamic terrorist activity and US supported Israeli violence against Palestinians, mostly having to do with the initial desecration of muslim holy sites in Jerusalem by Ariel Sharon, pre 9/11 which was designed to scupper a peace deal in place between Israel and Palestinians...

they succeeded big time...

georgie...rave on you silly hypocritical sh1t...

[Goat Roper]

sigh...yeah, I agree...this discussion should be moved to the bear pit where hysterical zionist twaddle belongs.

curious that someone that admires buddhism would use the analogy of black folks threatening white folks and massive murderous retaliation to describe any conflict...

to re-state my argument, there is a connection between the present pervasive militant Islamic terrorist activity and US supported Israeli violence against Palestinians, mostly having to do with the initial desecration of muslim holy sites in Jerusalem by Ariel Sharon, pre 9/11 which was designed to scupper a peace deal in place between Israel and Palestinians...

they succeeded big time...

georgie...rave on you silly hypocritical sh1t...

xanax works sometime.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Silly-warrior, I am just illustrating a point, but because you are such a politically-correct phoofta, why don't we change it to some big, hunky Alabama rednecks. Does that make you feel better sweetie?

As to the rest of your dumb-ass theory, it sounds like you use big words to make up for your inferior manhood. Not much of an argument though.

[Goat Roper]

Dam#, this is better than "Fleers",(does that date me?)

[Axel]

Well Georgie-Porgie, I prefer facts instead of stories out of Harlem, which btw, would not be an area where you find me usually.

As for facts on the 6-days-war, I believe even Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan would have agreed to what I said.

Problems in the ME, for how far back do you want me to go? Around Adam and Eve?

The Arabs attacked Israel befor 67? Sure?

AFAIK Egypt'S Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal in '56 and declared that there is no sense in talking about peace with Israel who in turn than attacked Egypt with the help of Britain and France. In October of that year the United States sponsored a Security Council resolution calling for an immediate Israeli withdrawal, but England and France vetoed it.

Actually, no need to go on. These are historic facts. But another fact, this threat should be down in the bear pit, where facts seem not to be so important.

FYG, I am neither pro Israel nor pro-Arab, but like to see both sides.

Shalom

[tutsiwarrior]

georgie...shame on you...but if you want to know about the status of my manhood just tell me where yo' mama lives and later she can give you a report...

[Boon Mee]

Dam#, this is better than "Fleers",(does that date me?)

Sorta...I remember the show "Cheers" tho!

[Goat Roper]

Dam#, this is better than "Fleers",(does that date me?)

Sorta...I remember the show "Cheers" tho!

Just messing around Boon, when I was growing up there was a delicious bubblegum by the name of "Fleers", that's all.

[Georgie-Porgie]

georgie...shame on you...but if you want to know about the status of my manhood just tell me where yo' mama lives and later she can give you a report...

My momma's dead, but if you look her up, don't forget to bring the silly-little-millimeter brand ruler to measure up.

[tutsiwarrior]

cool w' me blood...w' dead folks don' matta one way or 'nother...

[Boon Mee]

Actually, no need to go on. These are historic facts. But another fact, this threat should be down in the bear pit, where facts seem not to be so important.

That is not true at all, Axel. There's a new poster over there now by the nick-John L. who writes some good stuff. Actually, pretty much everyone there backs their post up w/facts...possible exception of Taiquila but that's another story!

[Stocky]

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers,.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists , bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names? 

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

I want to thank you all, this topic has produced some of the most interesting and entertaining comments I can ever imagine and I think this particular topic is on most everyone's minds these days and for sure is on mine but you folks have given me a completely new leash on the Arabs/Muslims/Islam/shiteheads etc.,etc.

I have a much better understanding now even though I have worked(under boss pressure) with some of these Muslims over the years and my opinions of these people has been come by honestly and "On the ground", so I have just one thing to say, "Keep on-a keeping on", you folks are better than great!!!!

Two brilliantly incisive minds, such clarity of vision, insight and grasp of realpolitik.....

.....you really should be working at the Pentagon, you'd fit in nicely, and you've probably already got your white cloaks and pointy hats.

[Goat Roper]

Axel, let's say that you are walking down the street in Harlem. 20 big, ugly black guys surround you with baseball bats, broken bottles and meat cleavers,.

What they don't know is that you just happen to have a Glock 9mm with 20 armor piercing, expanding rounds down your pants.

The biggest black guy says, Axel, you phony ass white-boy. You liberal, passive-aggressive piece of sh1t, we're going to cut you in a million pieces and feed you to the rats.

Do you wait until you are half dead and bloody under a pile of smashing fists , bottles and cleavers, or do you whip out your Glock, declare a pre-emptive strike, kick some ass and take names? 

Yeah, I thought so, and besides that the Arabs had already attacked the Jews before 1967, anyway, so your little tale is meaningless in context.

Enough of your liberal Islamic propaganda bullsh1t; Get moving white-boy.

I want to thank you all, this topic has produced some of the most interesting and entertaining comments I can ever imagine and I think this particular topic is on most everyone's minds these days and for sure is on mine but you folks have given me a completely new leash on the Arabs/Muslims/Islam/shiteheads etc.,etc.

I have a much better understanding now even though I have worked(under boss pressure) with some of these Muslims over the years and my opinions of these people has been come by honestly and "On the ground", so I have just one thing to say, "Keep on-a keeping on", you folks are better than great!!!!

Two brilliantly incisive minds, such clarity of vision, insight and grasp of realpolitik.....

.....you really should be working at the Pentagon, you'd fit in nicely, and you've probably already got your white cloaks and pointy hats.

Oh boy, here comes the lacky liberal again, just cannot imagine where this guy was trained.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Well Georgie-Porgie, I prefer facts instead of stories out of Harlem, which btw, would not be an area where you find me usually.

Problems in the ME, for how far back do you want me to go?

Axel, some people need a little illustrating, to make certain situations more clear to them.

As to how far back in history I wanted you to go, since you were claiming that the Jews attacked the Arabs originally, one might think that you would go back to the beginning of Israel in 1948.

Actually, Israel declared Independence on May 14, 1948, and five Arab armies attacked the next day. As we all know, Israel whipped all their asses, and they have been crying ever since.

Liars on this web-site are always claiming that the Jews forced the Palestinians off of their land, but anyone with an education knows that that is not true. Some people on this web-site aren't all that clever, so I looked for something simple that would describe why the Palestinians left their land voluntarily that even these idiots would understand.

This is from, "The Complete Idiots Guide to the Middle East Conflict" (Perfect, wouldn't you say?):

The Palestinians left their land in 1947-48 for many different reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left their land in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leader's calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the crossfire of a battle.

Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee, and an Independent Arab state would have shared with Israel a 50th anniversary celebration in May 1998.

I have lots more facts like these, since you are so fond of them.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Goat Roper, don't worry about Stocky's lousy attempt at wit. Fat boy can't write a decent post to save his life. Probably too much blubber between the ears!

[tutsiwarrior]

georgie...lets get technical...if you are gonna list text please quote your sources. My information comes from a distillation of articles published in US newspapers and magazines over the past 35 years all of which have solid credentials as legitimate mainstream journalism...sorry not be able to refer to more scholarly tomes as my BA in History was in Latin American and Recent US History. However I try to apply the same intellectual rigour to the sources at hand.

And...peace... lets not let the discussion ever get personal again...

[Georgie-Porgie]

Sorry to snicker, but you just said let's get technical and list our sources, and then you say that you read a bunch of "legitimate, mainstream magazines" over the last 35 years and don't say what they are!

That is not technical, technical is when you list every magazine, authors, page numbers etc, and I must say that you certainly interpreted these "legitimate, mainstream magazines" in a distorted way.

Anyway, since we are getting "technical", I only quoted from one source tonight, and I already listed it. It was page 174 though, if you need it.

As to not getting personal, I did mention that the topic of Israel is my pet peeve, that I get really pissed off discussing it, because my opposition usually don't have the slightest idea of what they are talking about, but are usually very adamant about their ill-informed opinions?

If one doesn't want me to get personal concerning this subject, it's best to either agree with me, or keep one's asinine opinions to oneself!

[Drewcifer]

Once again, we see how the people on this board can sink to new lows. Georgie-Porgie, do you really need to get personal? Is it not possible to have an academic discussion on here without the insults.

I am not a liberal. God, I dont think I've ever been called that before. Trust me, I spent way to many years under arms to ever be called that.

GP, I hate to say it, but I just dont think you know your history. This is not a pro or anti Israel statement. Its simply what happened. Oh, and GP, you never did comment on the US Liberty. If Israel was only defending itself, why did it attack and murder US citizens?

To the admins out there... I would hope that you would lock this post. It really belongs in the bear pit on not here.

[tutsiwarrior]

to dismiss replies or comments out of hand simply because they disagree with your personal view is to damage your credibility and invite accusations of bigotry and anti-intellectualism. I am passionate about many current issues as well but any attempt to discuss them rationally would certainly be compromised by challenging the intelligence and intentions of those that wish to differ...sounds like late night radio talk show host bullsh1t...

Time, Newsweek, Economist and major dailies in the US and the UK have given me the assurance that I need to develop my own conclusions regarding present issues...no need to quote anyone from anywhere else, hence , no need to footnote or to otherwise defend sources...

the problems that we all face today with regard to terrorism, US hegemony and the consequences and etc. will be with us for a long time...best to keep an open mind...I have no problems with Israel if it is kept under control and I don't like Arabs, Islam and their friends for a variety of reasons but I know that in a better world their concerns shall be addressed...don't ever give up and keep hoping for a better world...

[Stocky]

Goat Roper, don't worry about Stocky's lousy attempt at wit. Fat boy can't write a decent post to save his life. Probably too much blubber between the ears! 

... I'm so sorry you think my posts are FATuous

[Goat Roper]

Are we having fun here or what?

[Georgie-Porgie]

Once again, we see how the people on this board can sink to new lows. Georgie-Porgie,  do you really need to get personal? Is it not possible to have an academic discussion on here without the insults.

I am not a liberal. God, I dont think I've ever been called that before. Trust me, I spent way to many years under arms to ever be called that.

GP, I hate to say it, but I just dont think you know your history. This is not a pro or anti Israel statement. Its simply what happened. Oh, and GP, you never did comment on the US Liberty. If Israel was only defending itself, why did it attack and murder US citizens?

To the admins out there... I would hope that you would lock this post. It really belongs in the bear pit on not here.

Sorry brain-less-fer, but I don't suffer fools gladly.

How can you be so stupid as to say that I "don't know my history" and then back it up in no way, what-so-ever?

All your posts are like this, I say it is so, so it is!

I give examples from history books and then you try to dismiss it by claiming that what I said came out of the ozone somewhere and then changing the subject to the US Liberty.

Why don't you write a post about the US Liberty and then I will be happy to make you look like the fool that you truly are about that subject as well!

[Up2U]

.....you really should be working at the Pentagon, you'd fit in nicely, and you've probably already got your white cloaks and pointy hats.

To diverge even further -

When working in Port Harcourt (Nigeria) I used to go to different church services each Sunday morning (Hash in the afternoons).

One church, the congregation all dressed in long white robes with pointed headgear that had flaps coming down at the sides and back.

So from behind it looked like a Klukkers convention, but from the front all these smiling, happy black faces

Just an observation - never get taken in by appearances, always look at all aspects of a question.

[Drewcifer]

GP,

It sad that you use the common liberal tactic of using insults against anyone who disagrees with you.

So, according to you, if I leave (for any period of time) a piece of land I own, then all of a sudden, that land is no longer mine. Under international law, that is simply not true. Evacuation does not equal forfiture.

As far as the USS (not the US) Liberty goes it was not changing the subject. It was very much on the same subject. But then again, if you actually knew your history, you would have known that. For those of you who do not know about it, Eric Margolis does a very nice job of explaining it. Or, if you doubt that, feel free to talk to a veteran of the USS Liberty (http://www.ussliberty.org/). I have. Either way, the radio intercepts are now available under the FOA. But, I doubt, you would ever file one of those.

As far as your comment about 'anyone with an education knows'. Well, I am educated and I'd be happy to compare my CV to yours ANYDAY. I'm not a liberal, in fact, far from it. I've been to Israel? Have you? I've studied Middle Eastern History, have you? I've been deployed to the middle East, have you? Why dont you quote something from a reputable source and not something you've picked up by googling the interent. Just because something appears in print, does not mean its true.

Quote a reputable source, and stop with the personal insults, and then maybe people will take you seriously.

'The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret

by Eric S. Margolis

NEW YORK – On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab Israeli War, the intelligence ship 'USS Liberty' was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armored forces were racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian army.

'Liberty,' a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret US National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and electronic 'ears' including TRSSCOMM, a system that delivered real-time intercepts to Washington by bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.

'Liberty' had been rushed to Sinai to monitor communications of the belligerents in the Third Arab Israeli War: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over 'Liberty,' which was flying a large American flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.

At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the 'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died.

Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously aborted on orders from the White House.

An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order. 'prepare to repel borders.' But the Israelis, probably fearful of intervention by the US Sixth Fleet, departed. 'Liberty' was left shattered but still defiant, her flag flying.

The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of American naval personnel from hostile action since World War II.

Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.

In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's assault on the intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's mistaken missile strike on the USS 'Stark,' last fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the recent US-China air incident, the savaging of 'Liberty' was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.

Surviving 'Liberty' crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and tried to tell their story of deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having American pro-Israel groups accuse 'Liberty's' survivors of being 'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.' Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about the 'Liberty' by crewman James Ennes' was dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby branded him 'an Arab propagandist.'

The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's' intercepts flatly contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's massive air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.

Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its strategic Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when 'Liberty' appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel's claim that Syria had attacked it could have been disproved by 'Liberty.'

Most significant, 'Liberty's' intercepts may have shown that Israel seized upon sharply rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.

Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford: 'Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson Administration and Congress covered up the entire incident.' Why?

Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high moral values, preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and major financial backer of the Democratic Party. Congress was even less eager to touch this 'third rail' issue.

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism – not in the White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile action.

A member of President Johnson's staff believed there was a more complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a cover-up of the 'Liberty' attack, in exchange for the liberal toning down their strident criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam War.

Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense in 1967 and had no prior territorial ambitions, will be much displeased by Bamford's revelations. Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened.

Much more important, the US government's long, disgraceful cover-up of the premeditated attack on 'Liberty' has now burst into the open and demands full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices of 'Liberty's' dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Funny brain-less-fer, You tell me how "reputable" your source, for your article is, and not to google, but your article was right up near the top when I did; I wonder how you found it?

I don't need to compare CVs or penises with you, I have seen the twaddle that you post, and that pretty much says it all.

Here is what I believe about The USS Liberty from a much more reputable source than ole' Eric. By the way, you can google this one too!

The USS Liberty

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.

On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171.

Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.

According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.1 The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels.2 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.

A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.

Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting.3 Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attach้ was flown to the Liberty.

Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.

Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version.

A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.6

In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector, a triple ace, who shot down 15 enemy aircraft and took part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. "This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours." The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector's radio transmission in which he said, "I can't identify it, but in any case it's a military ship."7

Spector's plane was not armed with bombs or, he said, he would have sunk the Liberty. Instead he fired 30mm armor piercing rounds that led the American survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. His first pass ignited a fire, which caused the ship to billow black smoke that Spector thought was a ruse to conceal the ship. Spector acknowledged in the Post interview that he made a mistake, and said he admitted it when called to testify in an inquiry by a U.S. senator. "I'm sorry for the mistake," he said. "Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked."

None of Israel's accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.

Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.8

Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.”

Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.”

In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “coverญup.”9

In January 2004, the State Department held a conference on the Liberty incident and also released new documents, including CIA memos dated June 13 and June 21, 1967, that say that Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel. The historian for the National Security Agency, David Hatch, said the available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was attacking a U.S. ship. Two former U.S. officials, Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel, and John Hadden, then CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv, also agreed with the assessment that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.10

The new documents do not shed any light on the mystery of what the ship was doing in the area or why Israel was not informed about its presence. The evidence suggests the ship was not spying on Israel.

Israel apologized for the tragedy immediately and offered on June 9 to compensate the victims. Israel ultimately paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.

Notes

1For the most comprehensive analysis, see A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's Inc., 2002); Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, (CA: University of California Press, 1996), pp. 108-109.

2Rabin, p. 110.

3Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, (NY: HarperCollins, 1998), pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109.

4Washington Post, (November 6, 1991).

5Hirsh Goodman, “Messrs. Errors and No Facts,” Jerusalem Report (November 21, 1991).

6Nathan Guttman, "Memos show Liberty attack was an error," Ha'aretz, (July 9, 2003).

7"Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post," Jerusalem Post (October 10, 2003).

8Hirsh Goodman and Ze'ev Schiff, “The Attack on the Liberty,” Atlantic Monthly, (September 1984).

9“The Larry King Show” (radio), (February 5, 1987).

10Jerusalem Post, (January 13, 2004); Washington Times, (January 13, 2004).