San Francisco police fatally shoot man carrying knife

[webfact]

San Francisco police fatally shoot man carrying knife
By PAUL ELIAS

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Two police officers shot and killed a man carrying a knife in the San Francisco's bustling Mission District on Thursday, the city's police chief said.

San Francisco police Chief Greg Suhr said officers shot the unidentified Latino man after he refused demands to drop a knife and after the suspect was shot four times with nonlethal beanbags full of pellets.

The incident was the third fatal shooting of a minority suspect not carrying a gun in the last two years and the second since December. The previous two shootings along with two separate scandals involving officers exchanging homophobic and racist emails has led to several protests, calls for the chief's firing and wrongful death lawsuits.

The U.S. Department of Justice recently agreed to requests from Suhr and Mayor Ed Lee to review the department's procedures and policies. Suhr has called in outside law enforcement experts to help the department develop less lethal responses to suspects not carrying guns.

The latest incident began Thursday morning when city homeless outreach officials checking on residents living in tents called police to report a man carrying a knife, Suhr said. Suhr didn't identify the man, who officers reported charging at them before firing.

Seven bullets casings were found and the kitchen knife recovered, Suhr said. The blade was 10 inches to 12 inches long, and witnesses described it as a chef's knife, he said.

Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. John Visor and Stephanie Grant said they lived in a tent in the same encampment as the suspect and say he spoke only Spanish and that the officers barked their commands to drop the knife in English.

Visor, 33, and Grant, 31, say the man was confused and walking in a circle when the officers hit him with the beanbags and then opened fire with guns. They say the man had stuffed the knife into his waistband before he was shot.

"Everybody carries something for protection here," Visor said. "He didn't have the knife in his hand when he was shot."

Visor and Grant knew the man only as Jose. They said Jose liked to collect bottles and cans for recycling and enjoyed kicking a soccer ball, sometimes late into the night and to the occasional annoyance of pedestrians.

"He never hurt anybody," Visor said. "He just liked to pick up cans."

The last previous fatal shooting that involved San Francisco police occurred on Dec. 2, when five officers fatally shot Mario Woods 20 times, including six times in the back, in an incident caught on video.

Woods' family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit.

On Wednesday, the city's police commission agreed to reconsider its ban on arming San Francisco police officers with stun guns because of the Woods incident and the 2014 police shooting death of Alex Nieto, a college student carrying a stun gun that officers mistook for a handgun. Nieto carried a stun gun for his job as a security guard.

A federal grand jury earlier this year ruled the officers acted appropriately and refused to award Nieto's family any damages after a trial in San Francisco.

San Francisco is one of only two of the nation's largest cities in the country that do not equip officers with stun guns.
___

Associated Press writer Lisa Leff contributed to this story from San Francisco.

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-04-08

[mercman24]

lesson number one, don't bring a knife to a gunfight,

[mopar71]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

[how241]

Hard to imagine that he didn't understand what the police wanted. Here comes the lawyers.

[GOLDBUGGY]

There was a time that when a man came after Police Men with a knife, and was shot after he was warned to lay it down, it was expected that these Police Men had a right t defend themselves. Now they have to go to court to do that. Go Figure? The Times they are a Changing.

[GOLDBUGGY]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

I agree! You don't need to know Astrophysics or 7 Languages to figure out that if you are walking down the street with a knife in your hand, and the Police are pointing there weapons at you and shouting at you, to figure out what they want. Besides that in many places this is illegal to do. You can have a large bladed knife in your kitchen, or even a sword hanging on your wall, but this doesn't mean you can walk down main street with those in your hands.

Maybe he was just taunting the police for some reason. Maybe he just got a traffic ticket earlier in the day and was taken it out on them. But if I learnt 2 things in my life, Drunk or Sober, you never joke around with Police with a thing like that. You also never tell anyone you have a bomb in your carry-on luggage as a joke either.

[landslide]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

I agree with most of what you say, but I take issue with the comment that "even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people."

My brother is a police sargeant in the USA. He has never had to shoot anyone in his career, but has had two close fellow officers forced into the situation of shooting and killing an offender. Both of these officers were broken psychologically following the incidents, and could never really return to their normal duties. Both shooting were acknowledged as necessary and were without controversy. Even knowing this, it is not only the families of the victims that suffer, it is the officers as well. Nobody should judge the officer's actions until after all the facts are known.

[arjunadawn]

I remain unsure the failure of bean bags- 1, 5, or even 20- is preface enough to then shoot someone to death. Perhaps there is more to the story. Someone just possessing a big knife and refusing to put it down should not be the factor in shooting- period! We do not want to become numb because of all the scum out there and increasingly give a pass for shooting or lowering the threshold unless its valid. To do so creates a very ugly place later when the police are further federalized.

I agree with the threat matrix of proximity, capability, and intent. These things in isolation do not warrant an escalation of force to death. Jeez, they shot 5x more real ammo at him then bean bags. It can hardly be offered that non lethal force was exhausted after so many lethal rounds being fired.

[NeverSure]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

"He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people."

Outrageous and arrogant statement. Most people who live in the US don't know anyone who's ever been shot by police. This was a legit shooting. Police officers are devastated after they shoot someone, but fortunately the vast majority of them go an entire career without being involved in a shooting.

The US has the world's 3rd largest population and a lot more of almost everything happens in the US as a result.

At police academies in the US recruits are taught that a perp with a knife can run 7 yards/21 feet faster than you can react, draw, aim and shoot. They are also taught that a couple of bullets won't necessarily stop the threat immediately.

They are also taught that being stabbed with a knife is more deadly than being shot because a knife cuts a wider swath with a greater chance of hitting something vital such as an artery or organ. A bullet may make a smaller hole that passes without hitting anything vital, but of course the press makes an issue that he didn't have a gun. The knife was a big butcher's knife <deleted>.

According to the OP the police had already shot the perp with non-lethal bean bags full of pellets which hurt like hell. It would be reasonable to think that perhaps this perp was drugged up because the rest of us would have quit right there. He was acting crazy and for whatever reason he wouldn't surrender the knife, he got HIMSELF shot in a justified shooting.

Cheers.

[NeverSure]

I remain unsure the failure of bean bags- 1, 5, or even 20- is preface enough to then shoot someone to death. Perhaps there is more to the story. Someone just possessing a big knife and refusing to put it down should not be the factor in shooting- period! We do not want to become numb because of all the scum out there and increasingly give a pass for shooting or lowering the threshold unless its valid. To do so creates a very ugly place later when the police are further federalized.

I agree with the threat matrix of proximity, capability, and intent. These things in isolation do not warrant an escalation of force to death. Jeez, they shot 5x more real ammo at him then bean bags. It can hardly be offered that non lethal force was exhausted after so many lethal rounds being fired.

"Jeez, they shot 5x more real ammo at him then bean bags. It can hardly be offered that non lethal force was exhausted after so many lethal rounds being fired."

Police are taught that once a decision is made to shoot, they are to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Other methods are for the movies only. It doesn't surprise me that it took that many shots to put the perp down, since he didn't react as expected to very painful bean bags full of lead shot one of which would stop most of us. If you put yourself into a position where someone has to shoot you to stop you as a threat, you are volunteering to die.

Police are taught to shoot at "center of mass" which is roughly the upper torso. It's the largest target containing the most vital organs and offers the best odds of success in stopping someone.

Once the police make the decision that they or others in the area are in danger of serious injury or death, the shooting is inevitable. Anyone can avoid getting shot by simply dropping his weapon when told to do so.

[KMartinHandyman]

San Francisco is a sanctuary city.

Illegal alien no problem

Homeless no problem

No job no problem

No habla english no problem

If they deported him long ago rather than checking on him living in a homeless tent community he'd be alive.

[mopar71]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

I agree with most of what you say, but I take issue with the comment that "even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people."

My brother is a police sargeant in the USA. He has never had to shoot anyone in his career, but has had two close fellow officers forced into the situation of shooting and killing an offender. Both of these officers were broken psychologically following the incidents, and could never really return to their normal duties. Both shooting were acknowledged as necessary and were without controversy. Even knowing this, it is not only the families of the victims that suffer, it is the officers as well. Nobody should judge the officer's actions until after all the facts are known.

Apologies.

I didn't intend my statement to come across as anti-cop.

I can appreciate the tough and often thankless job they have.

I shouldn't have written "cops like to shoot people".

It's more that, "cops often shoot people" as it is in the news a lot.

[mopar71]

"Two witnesses say a language barrier may have contributed to the shooting. "

Yeah, right.

If I am carrying a kitchen knife and walking down the street in BKK and the police come up to me shouting something I don't understand...I would be able to figure out that maybe the knife has something to do with it.

So, he put the knife inside his belt [where it was easy to reach], so what? If a cop says to "drop the gun" and you put it in your waistband do you think you have successfully defused the situation? Of course not.

He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people.

Tragic as it might be, the guy made stupid and bad decisions and is more responsible for his death than anyone else.

"He was living in the USA and even people on this forum who have never been to the USA know that the cops like shooting people."

Outrageous and arrogant statement. Most people who live in the US don't know anyone who's ever been shot by police. This was a legit shooting. Police officers are devastated after they shoot someone, but fortunately the vast majority of them go an entire career without being involved in a shooting.

The US has the world's 3rd largest population and a lot more of almost everything happens in the US as a result.

At police academies in the US recruits are taught that a perp with a knife can run 7 yards/21 feet faster than you can react, draw, aim and shoot. They are also taught that a couple of bullets won't necessarily stop the threat immediately.

They are also taught that being stabbed with a knife is more deadly than being shot because a knife cuts a wider swath with a greater chance of hitting something vital such as an artery or organ. A bullet may make a smaller hole that passes without hitting anything vital, but of course the press makes an issue that he didn't have a gun. The knife was a big butcher's knife <deleted>.

According to the OP the police had already shot the perp with non-lethal bean bags full of pellets which hurt like hell. It would be reasonable to think that perhaps this perp was drugged up because the rest of us would have quit right there. He was acting crazy and for whatever reason he wouldn't surrender the knife, he got HIMSELF shot in a justified shooting.

Cheers.

Sorry, poor choice of word...see my apology above,

[Scott]

Let's stay on topic.

People traveling to the US need to know that the police are to be taken seriously. When I worked with refugees from various countries, a part of the resettlement training was how to react if you are stopped by the police. People were advised that they were in no danger as long as did exactly as they were told to do. People going to the US come from a lot of different countries all the way from those with police forces that are likely to beat you within inches of your life for virtually nothing to those where the police aren't even armed.

A good friend from Thailand recently resettled in the US. It took some time for him to understand that when you see a red light flashing behind you, you must pull over and stop, even for an ambulance. In most Western countries, the police/emergency services do not just drive around with red lights flashing because they feel like it. I seldom see anyone stop or even pull over when there is a police with red lights flashing in Thailand.