Former IRS Agent Admits: “Personal Income Tax is Actually Illegal”

[Asiantravel]

Former IRS Special Agent Joe Bannister explains to CNBC what he found out about the reality of the tax code:

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/former-irs-agent-admits-personal-income-tax-is-actually-illegal_04152016

[theguyfromanotherforum]

good luck with that

[Pib]

Wow...but you wonder why law enforcement officials, lawyers, Congress, the President, and even Supreme Court Justices continue to pay taxes if the personal tax code is illegal.

Maybe because it's not illegal (some people just don't want to pay any taxes and make-up wild stories to support their crazy beliefs)...but I'll wait until the voices in my head and the ancient astronaut theorists confirm.

[Asiantravel]

Wow...but you wonder why law enforcement officials, lawyers, Congress, the President, and even Supreme Court Justices continue to pay taxes if the personal tax code is illegal.

Maybe because it's not illegal (some people just don't want to pay any taxes and make-up wild stories to support their crazy beliefs)...but I'll wait until the voices in my head and the ancient astronaut theorists confirm.

how to dupe 300 million people

Steve Miller, former Director of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS ) admitted at a Congressional hearing that the taxes collected by the IRS are not mandatory – but voluntary. When questioned at the House Ways and Means Committee (WMC) hearing last week, Miller told House Representative Devin Nunes that “America’s tax system is ‘voluntary’”. When Nunes remarked for clarification that the US tax code is a “voluntary system”, Miller said, “Agreed.”

http://occupycorporatism.com/the-truth-comes-out-former-irs-director-admits-taxes-are-voluntary/

Edited April 17, 2016 by Asiantravel

[Smokin Joe]

16th amendment to the Constitution made it legal.

Ratification (by the requisite 36 states) was completed on February 3, 1913. The amendment was subsequently ratified by forty-two of the forty-eight then existing:

[WorkingTourist]

Someone already tried to avoid taxes based on their interpretation of the law: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/02/19/467383708/episode-685-larry-vs-the-irs

If taxes were actually illegal then you would think congress would have rectified it by now.

[Smokin Joe]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

Edited April 18, 2016 by Smokin Joe

[Pib]

Wow...but you wonder why law enforcement officials, lawyers, Congress, the President, and even Supreme Court Justices continue to pay taxes if the personal tax code is illegal.

Maybe because it's not illegal (some people just don't want to pay any taxes and make-up wild stories to support their crazy beliefs)...but I'll wait until the voices in my head and the ancient astronaut theorists confirm.

how to dupe 300 million people

Steve Miller, former Director of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS ) admitted at a Congressional hearing that the taxes collected by the IRS are not mandatory – but voluntary. When questioned at the House Ways and Means Committee (WMC) hearing last week, Miller told House Representative Devin Nunes that “America’s tax system is ‘voluntary’”. When Nunes remarked for clarification that the US tax code is a “voluntary system”, Miller said, “Agreed.”

http://occupycorporatism.com/the-truth-comes-out-former-irs-director-admits-taxes-are-voluntary/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_taxation History

The American federal income taxation system is sometimes called a "voluntary" taxation system. Marjorie E. Kornhauser writes, "Most people never pay their taxes voluntarily, in the ordinary sense of the word. Rather, they are generally anti-tax, in that they usually would prefer to keep any income they receive than pay it to the government in taxes. Voluntary, in the context of taxation, simply means that people do not have to be compelled to pay their taxes through actual enforcement actions by the state." The "income taxes are voluntary" argument has not prevented U.S. residents who did not file tax returns or pay taxes from being prosecuted and convicted for tax offenses.

Lysander Spooner stated, "It is true that the theory of our Constitution is, that all taxes are paid voluntarily; that our government is a mutual insurance company, voluntarily entered into by the people with each other; that each man makes a free and purely voluntary contract with all others who are parties to the Constitution, to pay so much money for so much protection, the same as he does with any other insurance company; and that he is just as free not to be protected, and not to pay tax, as he is to pay a tax, and be protected. But this theory of our government is wholly different from the practical fact. The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: “Your money, or your life.” And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the roadside, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. "

Edited April 18, 2016 by Pib

[55Jay]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, and can't wait to share their unbelievable discovery with the world.

Talk about timely discoveries, the CNBC video clip, lower left, advertises Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Tim passed away in 2008.

[Asiantravel]

16th amendment to the Constitution made it legal.

Ratification (by the requisite 36 states) was completed on February 3, 1913. The amendment was subsequently ratified by forty-two of the forty-eight then existing:

Funny you should mention that

If you’re an American (I’m not) you must know Aaron Russo an American entertainment businessman, film producer and director, best known for producing such movies as “ Trading Places”, “ Wise Guys”, and “ The Rose “.

Aaron Russo made a documentary interviewing very many people entitled “America : Freedom to Fascism”and here is a 10 minute excerpt from documentary when he interviewed former IRS Commissioner Sheldon Cohen and where Cohen not only fails to answer the questions properly but virtually gives up on the interview when the questions get too hard. The final few minutes is even more fascinating when Aaron Russo claims Cohen gives them a veiled threat in Yiddish.

[Asiantravel]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, and can't wait to share their unbelievable discovery with the world.

Talk about timely discoveries, the CNBC video clip, lower left, advertises Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Tim passed away in 2008.

" It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, "

LOL

on the other hand it could mean that the majority of the sheeple still haven't woken up to the legalities?

in the documentary I referred to in the previous post I would hardly call some of the people that were interviewed or indeed the producer and director of that film a doodle brain

[Gonsalviz]

16th amendment to the Constitution made it legal.

Ratification (by the requisite 36 states) was completed on February 3, 1913. The amendment was subsequently ratified by forty-two of the forty-eight then existing:

Taxation on income is unfair. Everyone knows it is. What makes it illegal is an illegal law. This is why Americans are getting fed up with the system. Trump all the way.

[Asiantravel]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

How can it be a conspiracy theory when all these people are doing is ask to see the law which purportedly exists ?

The conspiracy theory must surely be that such law exists at all because no one has been able to actually produce it ?

[WorkingTourist]

How can it be a conspiracy theory when all these people are doing is ask to see the law which purportedly exists ?

The law is The Internal Revenue Code, also known as Title 26 of the United States Code.

What I took from your video clip was that the law does not properly define income.

It says “Gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items” but that definition uses the word “income” again, and the proponents of “there is nothing forcing you to pay tax” are claiming that income does not include selling your labour (as I understood it).

Then there was the other question about whether Title 26 was actually constitutional, but I think it would be until a judge has ruled otherwise (but I am not a U.S. citizen or that familiar with U.S. law).

[KonaRain]

Liking all UR posts..

Conspiracy Theory = Healthy Skepticism

Aloha

[Berkshire]

16th amendment to the Constitution made it legal.

Ratification (by the requisite 36 states) was completed on February 3, 1913. The amendment was subsequently ratified by forty-two of the forty-eight then existing:

Taxation on income is unfair. Everyone knows it is. What makes it illegal is an illegal law. This is why Americans are getting fed up with the system. Trump all the way.

So you really think that Trump as President will mean less or no taxation on income? Seriously? How do you think Trump is going to pay for his military build-up? His wall? His deportation of 11 million illegals? Nothing will change with Trump.

[Asiantravel]

How can it be a conspiracy theory when all these people are doing is ask to see the law which purportedly exists ?

The law is The Internal Revenue Code, also known as Title 26 of the United States Code.

What I took from your video clip was that the law does not properly define income.

It says “Gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items” but that definition uses the word “income” again, and the proponents of “there is nothing forcing you to pay tax” are claiming that income does not include selling your labour (as I understood it).

Then there was the other question about whether Title 26 was actually constitutional, but I think it would be until a judge has ruled otherwise (but I am not a U.S. citizen or that familiar with U.S. law).

Again I am not American either but I believe most of us who have any interest in American affairs have at least a basic idea of America’s most important institutions - with one being of course the US Supreme Court.

I would welcome any American on this forum to explain to me how the decisions made in the Supreme Court can be brushed aside by lower courts? that would be like lower courts in England disregarding the decisions handed down by the House of Lords which just wouldn't and couldn't happen.

Federal Judge Kent Dawson started off the Irwin Schiff tax case by saying “ I will not allow the law in my courtroom “and then he instructed the jury by saying “ you must follow the law as I give it to you “.

How can the following dialogue during the trial between the defendant and Judge Dawson can make any sense whatsoever?it seems like Alice in Wonderland stuff to me.

Irwin Schiff “ but the Supreme Court said………….”

Judge Dawson “ irrelevant denied !“

Irwin Schiff “ the Supreme Court is irrelevant? “

Judge Dawson “ irrelevant denied ! “

Edited April 19, 2016 by Asiantravel

[mgjackson69]

Liking all UR posts..

Conspiracy Theory = Healthy Skepticism

Aloha

What is a UR post ?

[WorkingTourist]

How can it be a conspiracy theory when all these people are doing is ask to see the law which purportedly exists ?

The law is The Internal Revenue Code, also known as Title 26 of the United States Code.

[…] explain to me how the decisions made in the Supreme Court can be brushed aside by lower courts? […]

Federal Judge Kent Dawson started off the Irwin Schiff tax case by saying “ I will not allow the law in my courtroom “and then he instructed the jury by saying “ you must follow the law as I give it to you “. […]

I believe the missing context makes for the misunderstanding.

From wikipedia: “Under the U.S. legal system, the general rule is that neither side in a civil or criminal case is allowed to try to prove to the jury what the law is. For example, in a murder case the defendant is not generally allowed to persuade the jury that there is no law against murder, or to try to interpret the law for the jury. Likewise, the prosecution is not allowed to try to persuade the jury about what the law is, or how it should be interpreted. Disagreements about what the law is are argued by both sides before the judge, who then makes a ruling. Prior to jury deliberations, the judge, and only the judge, instructs the jury on the law.”

I.e. Schiff’s lawyers cannot argue (to the jury) that there is no law requiring you to pay taxes. Such argument must be argued in front of the judge, and the judge will then tell the jurors what the law is.

[suzannegoh]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, and can't wait to share their unbelievable discovery with the world.

Talk about timely discoveries, the CNBC video clip, lower left, advertises Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Tim passed away in 2008.

" It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, "

LOL

on the other hand it could mean that the majority of the sheeple still haven't woken up to the legalities?

in the documentary I referred to in the previous post I would hardly call some of the people that were interviewed or indeed the producer and director of that film a doodle brain

Not a doodle brain maybe, but this is an old story and Joe Banister (the IRS agent making that "admission") only narrowly avoided jail, lost his CPA license, and was disbarred. So it might not be a good idea to hang your hat on the proposition that you can beat the IRS by quoting him.

From Wiki:

In 2004, Banister was charged with one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States^[1] and various counts of willfully aiding, assisting counseling and procuring the filing of a false amended income tax return^[2] in connection with his alleged assistance of a client, Walter Allen Thompson.^[3] Thompson owned and operated Cencal, an aviation and flight bag manufacturing business. Cencal employed a number of hourly wage workers who were predominantly seamstresses, production workers and office workers. In July 2000, Thompson removed all of the employees from the taxpayer rolls by no longer withholding employment taxes from wages and salaries, by not filing Forms 941, and by not providing employees or the IRS with annual wage or other income statements, Forms W-2 or 1099.

Thompson was charged numerous tax-related offenses. On January 28, 2005, he was found guilty of two counts of knowingly filing false claims against the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 287, ten counts of willful failure to collect and turn over taxes under 26 U.S.C. § 7202, and one count of willfully filing a false income tax return under 26 U.S.C. § 7206.^[4] Thompson was acquitted on one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. § 371.^[5] Thompson was sentenced to serve 72 months in prison and was fined $7,500.^[6] The case against Banister continued, and Banister was eventually acquitted of the charges against him.^[7]

[mgjackson69]

I guess when it comes right down to it, paying US Federal income tax is voluntary.

You do not have to pay it....but watch the fun ensue if you do not pay.

[55Jay]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, and can't wait to share their unbelievable discovery with the world.

Talk about timely discoveries, the CNBC video clip, lower left, advertises Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Tim passed away in 2008.

" It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, "

LOL

on the other hand it could mean that the majority of the sheeple still haven't woken up to the legalities?

in the documentary I referred to in the previous post I would hardly call some of the people that were interviewed or indeed the producer and director of that film a doodle brain

Ok, so you are awake. Endowed with this insight. You are not one of the 'Sheeple'.

Charged with this information, did you pay tax and file a return this year?

[Asiantravel]

This is one of the regular conspiracy stories that comes up every once in a while.

What the guys testimony actually proves is that the IRS has hired some complete idiots.

Here's a Snopes article about it

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/voluntary.asp

It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, and can't wait to share their unbelievable discovery with the world.

Talk about timely discoveries, the CNBC video clip, lower left, advertises Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Tim passed away in 2008.

" It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, "

LOL

on the other hand it could mean that the majority of the sheeple still haven't woken up to the legalities?

in the documentary I referred to in the previous post I would hardly call some of the people that were interviewed or indeed the producer and director of that film a doodle brain

Ok, so you are awake. Endowed with this insight. You are not one of the 'Sheeple'.

Charged with this information, did you pay tax and file a return this year?

https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/why-im-proud-that-my-tax-bill-is-zero-19112/

[suzannegoh]

" It gets recycled by doodle brains who think they've stumbled upon a secret, "

LOL

on the other hand it could mean that the majority of the sheeple still haven't woken up to the legalities?

in the documentary I referred to in the previous post I would hardly call some of the people that were interviewed or indeed the producer and director of that film a doodle brain

Ok, so you are awake. Endowed with this insight. You are not one of the 'Sheeple'.

Charged with this information, did you pay tax and file a return this year?

https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/why-im-proud-that-my-tax-bill-is-zero-19112/

That's great that the author of that article has managed to legally pay zero taxes. That can be done and some people think that arranging their finances so as to minimize their tax bill is of paramount importance. And if you're a Sovereign Man it goes without saying that doing so makes you superior to the sheeple. But others think that it makes more sense to maximize your net income (income less taxes) rather than to focus only on your tax bill. Isn't that a silly idea?

Edited April 22, 2016 by suzannegoh

[mgjackson69]

My family living in a rural area of USA, and being in the automobile and farm equipment business...

I always like to be around there at the end of the year. All of these people coming in, spending money that they really do not have, to buy a new vehicle or other equipment they do not need, to keep from "paying taxes"....I guess paying interest is somehow better.

It truly does get into the realm of ridiculous...paying thousands of $$$ to avoid hundreds in taxes.

[thaihome]

My family living in a rural area of USA, and being in the automobile and farm equipment business...

I always like to be around there at the end of the year. All of these people coming in, spending money that they really do not have, to buy a new vehicle or other equipment they do not need, to keep from "paying taxes"....I guess paying interest is somehow better.

It truly does get into the realm of ridiculous...paying thousands of $$$ to avoid hundreds in taxes.

Actually a small business can deduct the entire amount in that year up to 500k. They also can deduct the interest as a business expense. It's a very smart move recommended by all tax experts.

TH

[mgjackson69]

My family living in a rural area of USA, and being in the automobile and farm equipment business...

I always like to be around there at the end of the year. All of these people coming in, spending money that they really do not have, to buy a new vehicle or other equipment they do not need, to keep from "paying taxes"....I guess paying interest is somehow better.

It truly does get into the realm of ridiculous...paying thousands of $$$ to avoid hundreds in taxes.

Actually a small business can deduct the entire amount in that year up to 500k. They also can deduct the interest as a business expense. It's a very smart move recommended by all tax experts.

TH

Spending money you do not have to buy equipment you do not need is not a "very smart move recommended by all tax experts".

Beyond that, most high-dollar equipment is amortized over several years.

Edited April 22, 2016 by mgjackson69

[55Jay]

Ok, so you are awake. Endowed with this insight. You are not one of the 'Sheeple'.

Charged with this information, did you pay tax and file a return this year?

https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/why-im-proud-that-my-tax-bill-is-zero-19112/

I was wondering if/when the sovereign man thing was going to come up.

Let me ask you this. As a non-American, did you have any US tax liability?

[WorkingTourist]

Let me ask you this. As a non-American, did you have any US tax liability?

As a non-American living outside the U.S. I pay withholding tax on dividends from U.S. source stocks.

Hopefully my money goes to something other than war and bombs, like education, libraries, health care, infrastructure, consumer protection agencies (like the FDA), etc.

You can easily criticize many of these things, but I would think that “starving the beast” is the least successful way of causing positive change.

[Asiantravel]

Let me ask you this. As a non-American, did you have any US tax liability?

As a non-American living outside the U.S. I pay withholding tax on dividends from U.S. source stocks.

Hopefully my money goes to something other than war and bombs, like education, libraries, health care, infrastructure, consumer protection agencies (like the FDA), etc.

You can easily criticize many of these things, but I would think that “starving the beast” is the least successful way of causing positive change.

" I would think that “starving the beast” is the least successful way of causing positive change. "

what? So you think feeding the beast is a successful way of causing positive change? where and when it will it happen?

“Government does not tax to get the money it needs; government always finds a need for the money it gets.”

former US President Ronald Reagan