The ultimate purpose of Buddhist-style meditation practices

[VincentRJ]

I consider the law of karma, which causes people to be ugly, beautiful, rich, poor etc., to be completely fair and just.

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the position of judge and jury. Do you have any proof that Karma exists? That has to be the first step before one can proceed to determine if Karma is fair and just.

However, don't get me wrong. I think Karma is an interesting idea that at least offers an explanation for the great disparity that exists in the living conditions of people in all societies.

No-one is given a choice whether or not to be born. If someone is born with a serious disability, or born into a family living in great poverty, it's quite natural for him/her to ask, 'why me'? 'Why am I so disadvantaged whilst other children are so well-off'?

I can understand that the Karmic explanation for one's state of affairs, in conjunction with the belief that one can change the progress of those effects of Karma, at least gradually over many lives, by doing good deeds and leading a righteous life, could have a great calming effect. I can see that it could help remove any emotional need to get angry and blame others for one's circumstances, which is all good.

The problem as I see it, is in determining what circumstances are unavoidably due to Karma and therefore cannot be removed, and what circumstances can be easily changed if one learns how.

I'm reminded here of that Christian Serenity Prayer as follows:

"God grant me the serenity

To accept the things I cannot change;

Courage to change the things I can;

And wisdom to know the difference."

In the Buddhist context, accepting the things that one cannot change is perhaps equivalent to accepting the reality of Karma. However, unless one thinks deeply about such matters, one might confuse some of those things that one cannot change with those things that one can change.

[trd]

Vincent, you started this thread. When are you going to start talking about Buddhist style meditation practices?

[nongai]

I consider the law of karma, which causes people to be ugly, beautiful, rich, poor etc., to be completely fair and just.

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the position of judge and jury. Do you have any proof that Karma exists? That has to be the first step before one can proceed to determine if Karma is fair and just.

However, don't get me wrong. I think Karma is an interesting idea that at least offers an explanation for the great disparity that exists in the living conditions of people in all societies.

No-one is given a choice whether or not to be born. If someone is born with a serious disability, or born into a family living in great poverty, it's quite natural for him/her to ask, 'why me'? 'Why am I so disadvantaged whilst other children are so well-off'?

I can understand that the Karmic explanation for one's state of affairs, in conjunction with the belief that one can change the progress of those effects of Karma, at least gradually over many lives, by doing good deeds and leading a righteous life, could have a great calming effect. I can see that it could help remove any emotional need to get angry and blame others for one's circumstances, which is all good.

The problem as I see it, is in determining what circumstances are unavoidably due to Karma and therefore cannot be removed, and what circumstances can be easily changed if one learns how.

I'm reminded here of that Christian Serenity Prayer as follows:

I did not say "The law of karma is just and fair.."... but I did say "I consider...... " so i was not forcing my opinion upon anyone.

Far greater men than me... those who are Arahants and have reached the goal, with all the insight that brings, state that the law of karma is real; rebirth in the 31 realms is real... and since it is all acceptable and logical to me, I am happy to accept their teaching.

Doubt is a great obstacle to many, especially to ones practice, and it is that very practice which will bring an end to doubt when one achieves experiential knowledge.

Of course, not everything is due to karma. There are natural catastrophes and accidents which happen, but I find it easier to attribute everything to karma since it is easier to accept the results then.

No need for a ..."Why me lord... its not fair" attitude.

The need to seperate what is karma and what isn't doesn't really seem important to me as it seems to be to you.

Accepting that one is the author of this life, and getting down to practicing at least the precepts, but better still the higher teachings is the only way to escape the karmic cycle.

[VincentRJ]

Vincent, you started this thread. When are you going to start talking about Buddhist style meditation practices?

Hi Trd,

Good question. There are many different styles of meditation which tend to involve sitting down in a fixed and specific posture and trying to concentrate on something specific, like one's breath, left nostril, or a candle flame.

Although I've tried such techniques, they have never appealed to me much, perhaps because of my pragmatic nature.

As I mentioned in a previous response to you, I spend much of my time in a naturally peaceful environment, which is actually on a 5 acre property about an hour's drive from the city. I'm reluctant to spend a significant amount of time cooped up in a bedroom, or under an Iron Bark Tree, with eyes closed trying to reach Nirvana, when I'm surrounded by such a beautiful, peaceful and natural landscape.

When I meditate, I prefer to concentrate on a simple, but useful job of work, instead of a candle flame. This afternoon I spent a few hours peacefully painting a timber retaining wall at the rear of my house. I was using up old cans of paint, some of which had already dried up, so it wasn't costing any money. The job of painting was also increasing the durability of the retaining wall as well as improving the illusory appearance of the wall for the sake of less enlightened visitors.

There was a combination of different reasons to motivate me to engage in this work, as is usually the case with all work I do.

Towards the end of the day, I was distracted in my meditation by the sound of Wallabies, who had approached as close as 4 or 5 metres to eat the new shoots of grass in an area I had recently slashed. I would occasional stop painting to gaze at them, and they would occasionally stop eating to gaze at me. I was pleased they were not afraid of me, although I know they would never allow me to approach closely and pat them like a dog.

Then I suddenly had a distracting thought. Hey! Maybe I was a Wallaby in a previous life. That's why they seem relatively undisturbed by my presence. Oh My Gawd!

[VincentRJ]

I consider the law of karma, which causes people to be ugly, beautiful, rich, poor etc., to be completely fair and just.

Sounds like you are putting yourself in the position of judge and jury. Do you have any proof that Karma exists? That has to be the first step before one can proceed to determine if Karma is fair and just.

However, don't get me wrong. I think Karma is an interesting idea that at least offers an explanation for the great disparity that exists in the living conditions of people in all societies.

No-one is given a choice whether or not to be born. If someone is born with a serious disability, or born into a family living in great poverty, it's quite natural for him/her to ask, 'why me'? 'Why am I so disadvantaged whilst other children are so well-off'?

I can understand that the Karmic explanation for one's state of affairs, in conjunction with the belief that one can change the progress of those effects of Karma, at least gradually over many lives, by doing good deeds and leading a righteous life, could have a great calming effect. I can see that it could help remove any emotional need to get angry and blame others for one's circumstances, which is all good.

The problem as I see it, is in determining what circumstances are unavoidably due to Karma and therefore cannot be removed, and what circumstances can be easily changed if one learns how.

I'm reminded here of that Christian Serenity Prayer as follows:

I did not say "The law of karma is just and fair.."... but I did say "I consider...... " so i was not forcing my opinion upon anyone.

You actually wrote, "completely fair and just", which implies a strong degree of certainty, way beyond any reasonable doubt.

You are quite right that doubt is an obstacle, but it's also an obstacles to the progression of any activity, good or bad. One might deprive oneself of the benefits of a particular diet, which is in fact healthy, on the grounds that the scientific evidence is not certain. But one might also deprive oneself, as a result of doubt, of the reality of being ripped off by a con artist selling dubious investment opportunities.

It works both ways. That's why I find the central message of the Kalama Sutta so relevant in our modern, extremely diverse societies, where most people seem to be bombarded with so many conflicting views, and opinions.

[nongai]

What's with all the silly nit-picking about semantics. Childish and just displays ignorance not wisdom.

I am in the delghtful position of having absolutely no doubt about the truth of karma, rebirth, the 4NT & 8FP, the four pairs of Noble ones, the three characteristics of compounded existence and the four types of humans.

[trd]

Vincent, you started this thread. When are you going to start talking about Buddhist style meditation practices?

Hi Trd,

Good question. There are many different styles of meditation which tend to involve sitting down in a fixed and specific posture and trying to concentrate on something specific, like one's breath, left nostril, or a candle flame.

Although I've tried such techniques, they have never appealed to me much, perhaps because of my pragmatic nature.

As I mentioned in a previous response to you, I spend much of my time in a naturally peaceful environment, which is actually on a 5 acre property about an hour's drive from the city. I'm reluctant to spend a significant amount of time cooped up in a bedroom, or under an Iron Bark Tree, with eyes closed trying to reach Nirvana, when I'm surrounded by such a beautiful, peaceful and natural landscape.

When I meditate, I prefer to concentrate on a simple, but useful job of work, instead of a candle flame. This afternoon I spent a few hours peacefully painting a timber retaining wall at the rear of my house. I was using up old cans of paint, some of which had already dried up, so it wasn't costing any money. The job of painting was also increasing the durability of the retaining wall as well as improving the illusory appearance of the wall for the sake of less enlightened visitors.

There was a combination of different reasons to motivate me to engage in this work, as is usually the case with all work I do.

Towards the end of the day, I was distracted in my meditation by the sound of Wallabies, who had approached as close as 4 or 5 metres to eat the new shoots of grass in an area I had recently slashed. I would occasional stop painting to gaze at them, and they would occasionally stop eating to gaze at me. I was pleased they were not afraid of me, although I know they would never allow me to approach closely and pat them like a dog.

Then I suddenly had a distracting thought. Hey! Maybe I was a Wallaby in a previous life. That's why they seem relatively undisturbed by my presence. Oh My Gawd!

That's all very interesting, but I have no idea what this has to do with Buddhism. You aren't able by your own admission to apply yourself to some simple practice. Have you considered going on a short retreat? Your sole reference seems to be the Kalama sutra which you mentioned here a couple of years ago. Have you not moved on and read other texts? The kind of discussion you are having about Buddhist customs, history and beliefs is one you will still be having in five years time. Interesting perhaps but it will get you nowhere.

[VincentRJ]

What's with all the silly nit-picking about semantics. Childish and just displays ignorance not wisdom.

I am in the delghtful position of having absolutely no doubt about the truth of karma, rebirth, the 4NT & 8FP, the four pairs of Noble ones, the three characteristics of compounded existence and the four types of humans.

Good for you, but it's of no help to anyone else unless you can demonstrate and communicate the reasons and the evidence for your absolute lack of doubt. You must surely be aware that many people in the world express beliefs in all sorts of things that often seem completely ridiculous to others. The 4NT and the 8FP are basic principles that most people can understand, even if they sometimes fail to practice them, like the principle 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. It's not rocket science.

[VincentRJ]

That's all very interesting, but I have no idea what this has to do with Buddhism.

You should try to expand your horizons, Trd.

You aren't able by your own admission to apply yourself to some simple practice.

Of course I have. I just described a simple practice of painting a retaining wall, whilst meditating. I think that's more sensible than focusing on a candle light, or on one's left nostril.

Have you considered going on a short retreat?

Of course I have. About 53 years ago I visited Rishikesh in India, and shared a room with someone who wouldn't speak to me because he was on a vow of silence. Much more recently, I've looked at the rules and schedules of Buddhist retreats, and seen that they don't apply to an experienced, independent, free-thinking, non-conformist individual such as myself. I devise my own methods of meditation that I believe are more appropriate for my individual needs and characteristics.

Your sole reference seems to be the Kalama sutra which you mentioned here a couple of years ago. Have you not moved on and read other texts? The kind of discussion you are having about Buddhist customs, history and beliefs is one you will still be having in five years time. Interesting perhaps but it will get you nowhere.

The Kalama Sutta is not my sole reference, as you must surely know from my previous posts in previous threads. However, I do consider it to be a sutta which is sidelined and underrated in traditional Buddhism because it promotes 'thinking for oneself', which is not something which religious authorities like, except perhaps for themselves.

Thinking always gets you somewhere. Not thinking can far more dangerous.

[Brucenkhamen]

Of course I have. I just described a simple practice of painting a retaining wall, whilst meditating. I think that's more sensible than focusing on a candle light, or on one's left nostril.

It seems that not only you are lacking in experience of Buddhist-style meditation practices, your theory is pretty skewed.

If what you call meditation practices, painting retaining walls and gazing at wallabies etc, were working I think you'd have gained an understanding by now that restless speculation isn't constructive.

Putting aside the ultimate purpose of Buddhist-style meditation practices which is a long term and philosophical question, can you speculate on what the short and medium term purposes are I wonder?

[TuskegeeBen]

You assume that the only Buddhism is the monastic form. There is nothing preventing the householder Buddhist with a family from becoming enlightened.

However, I've concluded that your directed reply posts, are akin to making an effort in total futility, if you get my drift. Sigh!

[nongai]

Hi Trd,

Good question. There are many different styles of meditation which tend to involve sitting down in a fixed and specific posture and trying to concentrate on something specific, like one's breath, left nostril, or a candle flame.

Although I've tried such techniques, they have never appealed to me much, perhaps because of my pragmatic nature.

As I mentioned in a previous response to you, I spend much of my time in a naturally peaceful environment, which is actually on a 5 acre property about an hour's drive from the city. I'm reluctant to spend a significant amount of time cooped up in a bedroom, or under an Iron Bark Tree, with eyes closed trying to reach Nirvana, when I'm surrounded by such a beautiful, peaceful and natural landscape.

When I meditate, I prefer to concentrate on a simple, but useful job of work, instead of a candle flame. This afternoon I spent a few hours peacefully painting a timber retaining wall at the rear of my house. I was using up old cans of paint, some of which had already dried up, so it wasn't costing any money. The job of painting was also increasing the durability of the retaining wall as well as improving the illusory appearance of the wall for the sake of less enlightened visitors.

There was a combination of different reasons to motivate me to engage in this work, as is usually the case with all work I do.

Towards the end of the day, I was distracted in my meditation by the sound of Wallabies, who had approached as close as 4 or 5 metres to eat the new shoots of grass in an area I had recently slashed. I would occasional stop painting to gaze at them, and they would occasionally stop eating to gaze at me. I was pleased they were not afraid of me, although I know they would never allow me to approach closely and pat them like a dog.

Then I suddenly had a distracting thought. Hey! Maybe I was a Wallaby in a previous life. That's why they seem relatively undisturbed by my presence. Oh My Gawd!

So basically you have spent years talking about meditation when you don't do it. You find excuses for not doing it by declaring your independance on traditional beliefs and methods. ?

What's with all the silly nit-picking about semantics. Childish and just displays ignorance not wisdom.

I am in the delghtful position of having absolutely no doubt about the truth of karma, rebirth, the 4NT & 8FP, the four pairs of Noble ones, the three characteristics of compounded existence and the four types of humans.

Good for you, but it's of no help to anyone else unless you can demonstrate and communicate the reasons and the evidence for your absolute lack of doubt. You must surely be aware that many people in the world express beliefs in all sorts of things that often seem completely ridiculous to others. The 4NT and the 8FP are basic principles that most people can understand, even if they sometimes fail to practice them, like the principle 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. It's not rocket science.

Always the same old story.... those who cannot be bothered to do the required practice demand 'proof' from those who do... even though any realisations and wisdom acqured from practice are not something which can be produced as evidence, just spoken of as anecdotes. The fundamental principles of karma and rebirth are not ridiculous to Buddhists.... real Buddhists who practice the teachings and not just in name only, pretending to be buddhist because it is a hip thing to be or because it is the religion one was born into.

[VincentRJ]

Of course I have. I just described a simple practice of painting a retaining wall, whilst meditating. I think that's more sensible than focusing on a candle light, or on one's left nostril.

It seems that not only you are lacking in experience of Buddhist-style meditation practices, your theory is pretty skewed.

If what you call meditation practices, painting retaining walls and gazing at wallabies etc, were working I think you'd have gained an understanding by now that restless speculation isn't constructive.

Putting aside the ultimate purpose of Buddhist-style meditation practices which is a long term and philosophical question, can you speculate on what the short and medium term purposes are I wonder?

Skewed for the better, in my opinion, and not only in my opinion. I mentioned in previous posts my admiration for the Santi Asoke movement because of their practice of self-sufficiency and their refusal to accept donations for the building of glittering temples and giant Buddha statues.

The Santi Asoke people also practice an unorthodox method of meditating. Here's a description:

"The Asoke people do not meditate in the traditional way by sitting or walking. This is regarded by the Asoke people as a waste of time, and a way of escaping the reality of the world. Instead, they practice with open eyes, engaging energetically in any type of work. The main point with work, is hence not the result nor the gain, but the process itself."

Now, I'm open to many methods of meditation. I don't paint walls all the time. That was just an example of one of my Santi-Asoke-style practices. Sometimes I just sit quietly doing absolutely nothing, concentrating on my breath, and observing the rise and fall of my thoughts. Okay?

[VincentRJ]

So basically you have spent years talking about meditation when you don't do it. You find excuses for not doing it by declaring your independance on traditional beliefs and methods. ?

I assure you I've spent far more time meditating than talking about meditation. However, rigidity, inflexibility and automatically following the instructions of others doesn't appeal to me, which is why I don't spend time at organised meditation retreats. I've got my own retreat.

Always the same old story.... those who cannot be bothered to do the required practice demand 'proof' from those who do... even though any realisations and wisdom acqured from practice are not something which can be produced as evidence, just spoken of as anecdotes. The fundamental principles of karma and rebirth are not ridiculous to Buddhists.... real Buddhists who practice the teachings and not just in name only, pretending to be buddhist because it is a hip thing to be or because it is the religion one was born into.

I don't claim to be a Buddhist, except sometimes with a wink. However, I do recognise that there is a lot of sound advice and wisdom in the Buddhist teachings and anecdotes which address universal problems and which seem very relevant to conditions in modern societies.

Sorting out the relevant from the irrelevant and the practical from the fanciful, is often my focus in discussions such as this.

By the way, I've never stated that I think the fundamental principles of Karma and Rebirth are ridiculous. I've written, I think it's an interesting idea which can help the underprivileged feel less angry about their circumstances, and probably help the wealthy and privileged to feel less guilty about their own elevated circumstances in relation to the less privileged.

I have an open mind and consider it possible that sometime in the future, perhaps a long time in the future, scientific research might discover a fundamental particle of consciousness associated with all matter and which might be identified as Karma. Perhaps that might turn out to be one of the particles of Dark Matter, which is thought to exist because it explains some puzzling phenomena.

[dmw1977]

To revert to the original question Buddhism is not nihilistic because of practices in this life but because the goal is nirvana which is escape from perpetual life which is suffering. Buddhism is nihilistic and better understood as complete antithesis to Christianity which promotes the concept of life eternal

[rockyysdt]

Of course I have. I just described a simple practice of painting a retaining wall, whilst meditating. I think that's more sensible than focusing on a candle light, or on one's left nostril.

Of course I have. About 53 years ago I visited Rishikesh in India, and shared a room with someone who wouldn't speak to me because he was on a vow of silence. Much more recently, I've looked at the rules and schedules of Buddhist retreats, and seen that they don't apply to an experienced, independent, free-thinking, non-conformist individual such as myself. I devise my own methods of meditation that I believe are more appropriate for my individual needs and characteristics.

The Kalama Sutta is not my sole reference, as you must surely know from my previous posts in previous threads. However, I do consider it to be a sutta which is sidelined and underrated in traditional Buddhism because it promotes 'thinking for oneself', which is not something which religious authorities like, except perhaps for themselves.

Thinking always gets you somewhere. Not thinking can far more dangerous.

Hi Vincent.

Your description of painting whilst meditating (Mindfulness) is an excellent practice and forms part of the 8 Fold Path.

The idea being that one practices Awareness of Body, Breath, Mind, Feelings, and one Interaction with the external world.

Practicing Mindfulness in chucks, such as a session of fence painting, can gradually be extended until eventually you find yourself being Mindful continuously during your wakeful state.

This is prescribed in the 8 Fold Path as Right Mindfulness.

What I've learned is that Right Mindfulness must also be supplemented with the regular practice of deep levels Samadhi.

A state in which one has Awareness without thought.

The practitioner must eventually be able to easily enter such a state and maintain it for long periods.

Eventually such a state will yield personal experience of what is.

Something quite different to that which is presumed through analytical thought.

This is prescribed in the 8 Fold Path as Right Concentration.

The Kalama Sutta quite rightly allows for free inquiry rather than blind faith.

However, the path requires a certain amount of faith to allow one to progress to the point where personal experience can guide you to make such decisions.

How can one make an analytical decision on something which is experiential?

You can imagine how much practice is involved to establish deep levels of Samadhi held for long periods.

Something impossible to undertake without some faith.

This is why the Kalama Sutta can be used to work against you.

It can easily give one permission to stall ones path.

A catch 22 in which one uses thought to evaluate something which clearly requires experience.

To me, Buddhism is a path of experience, not analysis or thought.

It does come down to ones goals.

Those who are looking for deep relaxation needn't go down such a path, with Yoga, regular exercise, quiet rural life and other avenues at their disposal.

My goals differs.

I have spent much time becoming aware of the prison I find myself in.

The prison in which my Mind is the jailer.

The prison fashioned by my deeply rooted conditioning.

My goal is to experience what really is, not to surmise (religion) what it might be.

My goal is to grow my Awareness.

I think that dwelling around rules such as Kharma, Re Birth, Relms and such, seems to promote a religion.

Much better to practice.

[Brucenkhamen]

Skewed for the better, in my opinion, and not only in my opinion.

Perhaps then you could explain the benefits of focussing on ones left nostril instead of following all 16 tetrads of the anapanasati sutta, or focussing on candlelight over establishing awareness of changing mental phenomena as they arise and pass away.

The Santi Asoke people also practice an unorthodox method of meditating. Here's a description:

"The Asoke people do not meditate in the traditional way by sitting or walking. This is regarded by the Asoke people as a waste of time, and a way of escaping the reality of the world. Instead, they practice with open eyes, engaging energetically in any type of work. The main point with work, is hence not the result nor the gain, but the process itself."

You say that like you are not aware that all Buddhist meditation traditions give importance to practicing mindfulness throughout ones daily activities, though to be fair some traditions are better at explaining it than others. In fact in some I'd say the sitting and walking meditation is secondary and is primarily to establish a momentum of mindfulness that can be continued under any circumstances because it's the continuity of stability of mind, awareness, and equanimity which is important.

The sitting and walking sets up a controlled environment to establish a taste of mindfulness so that one can recognise it throughout the day, and a momentum that provides the energy to keep at it, and of course this in turn provides energy and momentum for your sitting practice. Without establishing that I doubt one can really practice effectively, I think one would just end up gazing at wallabies and contemplating the profundities of life following ones whims. One needs to build from a solid stable foundation first rather than skipping the first steps under the delusion one knows better.

[VincentRJ]

Hi Vincent.

Your description of painting whilst meditating (Mindfulness) is an excellent practice and forms part of the 8 Fold Path.

The idea being that one practices Awareness of Body, Breath, Mind, Feelings, and one Interaction with the external world.

Practicing Mindfulness in chucks, such as a session of fence painting, can gradually be extended until eventually you find yourself being Mindful continuously during your wakeful state.

This is prescribed in the 8 Fold Path as Right Mindfulness.

Hi Rocky,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm glad at least someone on this forum understands the benefits of meditation whilst performing a simple task like painting a wall.

To me, Buddhism is a path of experience, not analysis or thought. It does come down to one's goals. Those who are looking for deep relaxation needn't go down such a path, with Yoga, regular exercise, quiet rural life and other avenues at their disposal. My goals differ. I have spent much time becoming aware of the prison I find myself in.The prison in which my Mind is the jailer. The prison fashioned by my deeply rooted conditioning. My goal is to experience what really is, not to surmise (religion) what it might be. My goal is to grow my Awareness. I think that dwelling around rules such as Kharma, Re Birth, Relms and such, seems to promote a religion. Much better to practice.

I think everyone's goals and circumstances differ to some degree, which is why one fixed style of practice is not likely to be ideal or suitable for everyone.

I don't claim to have experienced the higher states of Samadhi. If I were to experience them I imagine I'd be very interested in the practical results that such experiences would have in my life. Would I view everything and everyone in a new light? Would I be able to describe how my attitudes have changed as a result of my experiencing Samadhi? Would other people who know me express surprise that I seemed to have changed, that I'm now much calmer, or more confident than I used to be, for example?

Would I perhaps be motivated to set myself up as a spiritual teacher to help others to experience states of Samadhi, or would I suddenly feel motivated to take off to an underdeveloped country like Nepal to help out those in need, by contributing some form of work?

So far, all the descriptions of these higher states of awareness or enlightenment that I've come across seem to ignore the practical benefits for the real world. They're a bit like a description of a sexual orgasm for the benefit of someone who has never had a sexual orgasm, along the lines 'it's wonderful and joyful and unlike any other experience, however, for it to be appreciated one has to experience it for oneself'.

That's fine, understood, but what's the purpose of a sexual orgasm? Can anyone articulate that? Yes they can. At least I can. It motivates people to reproduce, ie. have children. It's an experience which is necessary for the continuation of the human species.

So what are the motivating consequence of the experiences of Samadhi, Rocky, in practical terms?

[TuskegeeBen]

Buddism, by it's own embodiment, promotes simplicity. My sincere praises to the Japanese mentality, in that regard, to say the least.

I was away for more than one week. I returned to see the exact same posters, riding the exact same topic carousel of discussion. Sigh!

Indeed, with all the time spent (talking about) writing all the lengthly suppositions, re: the various forms of meditative practices, it is not unreasonable to presume,

that even here, some people seem to have an engrained penchant for complicating the simplest way of life explanations.

Time to move progressively along, then return to the topic thread, in the future, with some "actual" results based information, for a change, OP?

That much would make for far more interesting reading, instead. Cheers

[TuskegeeBen]

Skewed for the better, in my opinion, and not only in my opinion.

Perhaps then you could explain the benefits of focussing on ones left nostril instead of following all 16 tetrads of the anapanasati sutta, or focussing on candlelight over establishing awareness of changing mental phenomena as they arise and pass away.

The Santi Asoke people also practice an unorthodox method of meditating. Here's a description:

"The Asoke people do not meditate in the traditional way by sitting or walking. This is regarded by the Asoke people as a waste of time, and a way of escaping the reality of the world. Instead, they practice with open eyes, engaging energetically in any type of work. The main point with work, is hence not the result nor the gain, but the process itself."

You say that like you are not aware that all Buddhist meditation traditions give importance to practicing mindfulness throughout ones daily activities, though to be fair some traditions are better at explaining it than others. In fact in some I'd say the sitting and walking meditation is secondary and is primarily to establish a momentum of mindfulness that can be continued under any circumstances because it's the continuity of stability of mind, awareness, and equanimity which is important.

The sitting and walking sets up a controlled environment to establish a taste of mindfulness so that one can recognise it throughout the day, and a momentum that provides the energy to keep at it, and of course this in turn provides energy and momentum for your sitting practice. Without establishing that I doubt one can really practice effectively, I think one would just end up gazing at wallabies and contemplating the profundities of life following ones whims. One needs to build from a solid stable foundation first rather than skipping the first steps under the delusion one knows better.

[trd]

Buddism, by it's own embodiment, promotes simplicity. My sincere praises to the Japanese mentality, in that regard, to say the least.

I was away for more than one week. I returned to see the exact same posters, riding the exact same topic carousel of discussion. Sigh!

Indeed, with all the time spent (talking about) writing all the lengthly suppositions, re: the various forms of meditative practices, it is not unreasonable to presume,

that even here, some people seem to have an engrained penchant for complicating the simplest way of life explanations.

Time to move progressively along, then return to the topic thread, in the future, with some "actual" results based information, for a change, OP?

That much would make for far more interesting reading, instead. Cheers

If you have taken the time to come here, perhaps you could express an opinion on the thread topic and give us the benefits of your understanding of simplicity.

[VincentRJ]

The Santi Asoke people also practice an unorthodox method of meditating. Here's a description:

"The Asoke people do not meditate in the traditional way by sitting or walking. This is regarded by the Asoke people as a waste of time, and a way of escaping the reality of the world. Instead, they practice with open eyes, engaging energetically in any type of work. The main point with work, is hence not the result nor the gain, but the process itself."

In fact in some I'd say the sitting and walking meditation is secondary ...

No need to say it, Bruce. I've already told you.

The Santi Asoke group regard 'sitting and walking' meditation as a waste of time.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Rocky,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm glad at least someone on this forum understands the benefits of meditation whilst performing a simple task like painting a wall.

I think everyone's goals and circumstances differ to some degree, which is why one fixed style of practice is not likely to be ideal or suitable for everyone.

I don't claim to have experienced the higher states of Samadhi. If I were to experience them I imagine I'd be very interested in the practical results that such experiences would have in my life. Would I view everything and everyone in a new light? Would I be able to describe how my attitudes have changed as a result of my experiencing Samadhi? Would other people who know me express surprise that I seemed to have changed, that I'm now much calmer, or more confident than I used to be, for example?

Would I perhaps be motivated to set myself up as a spiritual teacher to help others to experience states of Samadhi, or would I suddenly feel motivated to take off to an underdeveloped country like Nepal to help out those in need, by contributing some form of work?

So far, all the descriptions of these higher states of awareness or enlightenment that I've come across seem to ignore the practical benefits for the real world. They're a bit like a description of a sexual orgasm for the benefit of someone who has never had a sexual orgasm, along the lines 'it's wonderful and joyful and unlike any other experience, however, for it to be appreciated one has to experience it for oneself'.

That's fine, understood, but what's the purpose of a sexual orgasm? Can anyone articulate that? Yes they can. At least I can. It motivates people to reproduce, ie. have children. It's an experience which is necessary for the continuation of the human species.

So what are the motivating consequence of the experiences of Samadhi, Rocky, in practical terms?

Personally, I don't think the practice methods used are that important.

As you indicate, we are all different, and may respond differently to methods used to initially fool our minds.

For example, some appear to be strongly attached to the importance of the lotus position.

I suggest, as long as one is in balance with gravity practice can proceed.

There are universal things such as breath and all its subtleties.

Have no fear Vincent.

You won't be motivated to abandon your wife nor walk out of your rural retreat, unless you experienced something profoundly compelling.

And if you did, you would be making your own decision based on personal experience.

There are three reasons to ordain or lock oneself in retreat.

1. To misuse the perks afforded to one as a Monk in an impoverished State where options are few.

2. To escape from ones life with the lure of rapture, and Nibanna with all its publicised trappings.

3. To build on a knowing, based on personal experience. A sanctuary designed to support full time practice.

What does matter is to take the time to perform regular practice of Concentration, Mindfulness and to live an ethical life.

Your final question can only be answered by yourself.

Think of Samadhi as a deeply concentrated state in which your awareness increases at ever finer and deeper levels.

Awareness will yield your answers.

There's a man I know who can't stop.

He fills his life with activities to fully occupy his days, and gravitates to employment, hobbies and activities which keep him on the go.

He walks stooped forward over his stomach, and gulps his food down after 2 or 3 chews.

His breath is often very short or stopped and he's subject to bouts of bad temper.

He constantly listens to music on his MP3 player and needs to be surrounded by friends.

He clenches and grinds his teeth, and blues with his wife if their house is not in showroom condition.

He drinks alcohol excessively, using it as his release.

However he's not aware that there is anything wrong with his life.

Awareness at this course level of Mind, Body, Breath, & Feelings is the beginning towards escape from such a state.

Imagine what other states await our Awareness.

Samadhi will turn off the cacophony of Mind allowing you to bathe in true silence.

A silence filled with pure awareness waiting to be experienced.

What it surrenders is lifes quest.

What it surrenders is for us to become aware of.

[Brucenkhamen]

No need to say it, Bruce. I've already told you.

The Santi Asoke group regard 'sitting and walking' meditation as a waste of time.

In what dictionary are "secondary" and "waste of time" synonyms?

[VincentRJ]

Hi Rocky,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm glad at least someone on this forum understands the benefits of meditation whilst performing a simple task like painting a wall.

I think everyone's goals and circumstances differ to some degree, which is why one fixed style of practice is not likely to be ideal or suitable for everyone.

I don't claim to have experienced the higher states of Samadhi. If I were to experience them I imagine I'd be very interested in the practical results that such experiences would have in my life. Would I view everything and everyone in a new light? Would I be able to describe how my attitudes have changed as a result of my experiencing Samadhi? Would other people who know me express surprise that I seemed to have changed, that I'm now much calmer, or more confident than I used to be, for example?

Would I perhaps be motivated to set myself up as a spiritual teacher to help others to experience states of Samadhi, or would I suddenly feel motivated to take off to an underdeveloped country like Nepal to help out those in need, by contributing some form of work?

So far, all the descriptions of these higher states of awareness or enlightenment that I've come across seem to ignore the practical benefits for the real world. They're a bit like a description of a sexual orgasm for the benefit of someone who has never had a sexual orgasm, along the lines 'it's wonderful and joyful and unlike any other experience, however, for it to be appreciated one has to experience it for oneself'.

That's fine, understood, but what's the purpose of a sexual orgasm? Can anyone articulate that? Yes they can. At least I can. It motivates people to reproduce, ie. have children. It's an experience which is necessary for the continuation of the human species.

So what are the motivating consequence of the experiences of Samadhi, Rocky, in practical terms?

Have no fear Vincent.

You won't be motivated to abandon your wife nor walk out of your rural retreat, unless you experienced something profoundly compelling.

And if you did, you would be making your own decision based on personal experience.

I don't have any major fears, Rocky. I don't even fear venomous snakes on my property. (When I occasionally encounter them, I find they always try to get out of my way. )

The issue is how to best use my time in the most meaningful and rewarding manner.

As you've mentioned, reaching these higher states of Samadhi can take a lot of time and practice, perhaps even more time than it takes to get a university degree followed by a PhD.

When a student makes the decision to get a university degree, he usually has some idea of the rewards, which are usually perceived as a more interesting and fulfilling career with greater options, greater prospects for promotion and a higher salary.

The claimed rewards of Samadhi, in terms of cessation of suffering, are only an incentive if suffering is perceived as a problem. Lots of people experience some degree of anxiety, about their job security, or their children's welfare, or their health, and so on. They are sometimes addicted to alcohol, overeat unhealthy food, have mood swings, lose their temper and get angry, and so on.

However, in all humility, I have to confess, these are not the sort of problems that affect me. I have complete control over my diet and can fast for several days without any excessive discomfort. I can enjoy a drink of wine now and again but can also refrain from drinking for as long as I wish. I have a fairly calm temper and can't even remember the last time I got angry. And lastly, I have complete control over my sexual desires, although that wasn't always the case. No doubt Buddhist practices have helped in that regard.

In order to get me motivated to spend hours every day doing nothing, in order to achieve a freedom from suffering which I am not aware I have, at least to any significant degree, I feel I need to be convinced of some practical advantage. Will my IQ be raised 20 points, for example? Will I increase my chances of living a healthier and longer life? Would I develop the capacity to become a 'speed reader' as a result of my great wisdom flowing from the states of Samadhi that I'd achieved, and be able to read all the books I currently can't find the time to read, and so on and so on?

Now I know that you can't answer specifics that would apply to me, but I'm curious to know if any of the above are the sorts of advantages that could result when one achieves a state of Samadhi.

If I make a change to a particular diet, I can report after a few months that I feel fitter, have more energy, or sleep better, whatever the case might be. Or I might report negative findings, such as an upset stomach.

I just find it rather strange that people who claim to have achieved these enlightened states can't be more specific about the practical advantages.

[VincentRJ]

No need to say it, Bruce. I've already told you.

The Santi Asoke group regard 'sitting and walking' meditation as a waste of time.

In what dictionary are "secondary" and "waste of time" synonyms?

Ah! I see your point. In addition to accepting that some Buddhist groups consider 'sitting and walking' meditation a waste of time (perhaps Santi Asoke being the only one), you'd say that there are other Buddhist movements that are less extreme in this regard, and consider 'sitting and walking' methods to be useful, although of secondary importance.

Do you know which groups these are that consider, in particular, 'sitting meditation' of secondary importance? I can understand that 'walking' meditation might be considered of secondary importance, but not so much 'sitting meditation'.

If it's true that Santi Asoke members meditate mainly whilst working, I can see why they are out-of-favour with the Buddhist establishment in Thailand (one of many reasons no doubt).

I wish I'd delved into this aspect more deeply when I visited an Asoke group in Ubon Ratchathani a couple of years ago. It was just a brief visit of a couple of hours, walking around the grounds taking photos, and having a brief conversation with one of the monks.

[Brucenkhamen]

Do you know which groups these are that consider, in particular, 'sitting meditation' of secondary importance? I can understand that 'walking' meditation might be considered of secondary importance, but not so much 'sitting meditation'.

My teacher Saydaw U Tejaniya is definitely one. I recall him once being asked why we have sitting and walking in the centre, he said to give people something to do otherwise they'd wander around getting into trouble.

Ajahn Chah, and possibly the Thai Forest tradition as a whole, the emphasis is more on lifestyle, mindfulness, and the vinaya.

The Mahasi tradition, though you wouldn't think so considering how rigid their sitting and walking regime is, but I think after practising for some time it dawns on you that the mindfulness of daily activities is just as if not more important and this is practiced just as rigidly as sitting and walking in Burmese centres.

The Insight meditation society, though teaching styles are variable there is a lot of influence from the above 3.

Ajahn Naeb I think didn't use sitting and walking at all.

Luang Por Teean uses a practice which I think is more like seated Tai Chi.

[VincentRJ]

Do you know which groups these are that consider, in particular, 'sitting meditation' of secondary importance? I can understand that 'walking' meditation might be considered of secondary importance, but not so much 'sitting meditation'.

My teacher Saydaw U Tejaniya is definitely one. I recall him once being asked why we have sitting and walking in the centre, he said to give people something to do otherwise they'd wander around getting into trouble.

Ajahn Chah, and possibly the Thai Forest tradition as a whole, the emphasis is more on lifestyle, mindfulness, and the vinaya.

The Mahasi tradition, though you wouldn't think so considering how rigid their sitting and walking regime is, but I think after practising for some time it dawns on you that the mindfulness of daily activities is just as if not more important and this is practiced just as rigidly as sitting and walking in Burmese centres.

The Insight meditation society, though teaching styles are variable there is a lot of influence from the above 3.

Ajahn Naeb I think didn't use sitting and walking at all.

Luang Por Teean uses a practice which I think is more like seated Tai Chi.

Interesting, because the popular image in Buddhism is that of a person sitting cross-legged with eyes closed, trying to still all thoughts. Mindfulness, in general terms, is something that everyone would see as sensible, I imagine, because without mindfulness one can easily have an accident just walking down the street, as those who are glued to their iPhones sometimes have.

When I first read that the Santi Asoke members consider 'sitting and walking' meditation a waste of time (which was unfortunately after I'd visited the group at Ubon Ratchathani, so I didn't delve into such matters) I wondered if it would be possible to gain 'full enlightenment' without actually sitting down for long periods of time attempting to still all thoughts.

After all, as the story goes, Gautama achieved enlightenment after meditating for at least a whole night under a Bodhi tree, without moving from his seat, or was that a period of 7 days, or even 7 weeks? Who knows, however the general impression I get is that it was a fairly long period time, and it's doubtful that Gautama could have recalled as many as 100,000 former habitations in all their modes and detail, in just one night.

[TuskegeeBen]

Buddism, by it's own embodiment, promotes simplicity. My sincere praises to the Japanese mentality, in that regard, to say the least.

I was away for more than one week. I returned to see the exact same posters, riding the exact same topic carousel of discussion. Sigh!

Indeed, with all the time spent (talking about) writing all the lengthly suppositions, re: the various forms of meditative practices, it is not unreasonable to presume,

that even here, some people seem to have an engrained penchant for complicating the simplest way of life explanations.

Time to move progressively along, then return to the topic thread, in the future, with some "actual" results based information, for a change, OP?

That much would make for far more interesting reading, instead. Cheers

If you have taken the time to come here, perhaps you could express an opinion on the thread topic and give us the benefits of your understanding of simplicity.

Sigh! all-ready contributed my notion of the simplicity factors, re: productive meditation applications techniques. Try reading something outside your soap-box, for a change.

I am not interested in contributing further to a 2X pre-existing verbose, pretentious, supercilious and non-productive "one-upmanship" topic debate between !

Capiche? Cheers, and arrivederci

[TuskegeeBen]

You're using your thinking mind in ways that are antithetical to Buddhist practice. Calm down. Breathe. That's it.

Wow! Is it that simple?

I breathe all the time. Doesn't everyone? And I consider myself to be calmer than most. If that's all there is to it, Buddhist practice would be dead easy.

From reading comments on this forum and elsewhere, I get a sense that achieving enlightenment takes a lot of time and dedicated application 'to doing nothing'. Some people even feel the need to take the extreme measures of isolating themselves from society, living alone in a cave, or becoming a monk living on hand-outs, and not even lifting a finger to grow their own food, in case they accidentally kill a worm.

The Western concept of Buddhism, without a literal belief in Karma and Rebirth, creates a sense of urgency about achieving enlightenment, because you have only one crack at it, so to speak, in this life.

The traditional Buddhist attitude allows one to 'take it easy' if one thinks one can't control one's sexual desires or completely abstain from alcohol, and so on. Just try to behave reasonably well, which involves supporting the monks, and one will get a second, and third, and fourth chance, and so on, hopefully in better or more conducive conditions so that one might eventually reach that goal of escape from all suffering.

It's difficult to imagine a religion based upon Buddhism without the belief in karma and rebirth. The sense of urgency to reach 'heaven' or 'enlightenment' in this life would be unsustainable.

Indeed! It truly is that simple