EgyptAir flight MS804 disappears from radar on flight from Paris to Cairo

[mcfish]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

Im not an airline pilot but I am a licensed pilot and first thing you are taught in an emergency is " Aviate, navigate,communicate" makes sense if you think about it. No engineer, super computers made them redundant years ago

[Credo]

In a misguided effort to create social cohesion, and not to give ammo to Mr.Trump the truth may not come out about this crash. Time and time again in Europe when muslims engage in a broad spectrum of violent crime, the story is denied at every level. Let us remember that on Jan 1st in Cologne NYE had passed off peacefully according to police. That is just one example of totally lying in order to deny central and right wing groups the natural support they would have if the truth was told.

My call was this was a terror attack by the religion of peace. Obfuscation and general BS by mainstream media over the incident led me to this conclusion in a short time.

Mmmm! Where's the claim of responsibility though ?

At the beginning I too believed it to be the work of ISIS or an affiliate group. They put out a propaganda video just days before threatening to attack France again. Footage of an Air France jet was used in said video. That, coupled with the fact there was the Paris,Cairo,Egypt Air connection certainly rang alarm bells not just in my ears [and many other "keyboard warriors" alike], but I am sure it screamed terrorist attack to many governments and their respective, defence forces ,intelligence and law enforcement organisations also.

The claim of responsibility may not be made in order to allow the perpetrators and those who helped to get far away from the scene of the crime. When a plane goes down, you know the security people are circling everyone. A wrong phone call, a link to an IP address or security video of a chance meeting could result in arrests.

It could also be an unknown group or an independent cell.

Terrorists like to create terror and not saying anything can be more frightening than knowing what happened.

It also could have not been a bomb.

[coma]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

Im not an airline pilot but I am a licensed pilot and first thing you are taught in an emergency is " Aviate, navigate,communicate" makes sense if you think about it. No engineer, super computers made them redundant years ago

OK. So no engineer. But how about the distress call ? You say " aviate,navigate,communicate" which is a catchy phrase used in training I guess. But is that in priority order or a simultaneous thing ? And with what you know of the this incident so far, do you believe they could have put out a distress signal ? If of course they weren't physically incapacitated to do so or the comms system was already down.

[Mosha]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

1st priority is fly the aircraft. Radio calls when situation is under control. No engineers in modern flight decks.

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Edited May 22, 2016 by Mosha

[coma]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

1st priority is fly the aircraft. Radio calls when situation is under control. No engineers in modern flight decks.

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Thanks. And understood. I am still however, Absolutely flabbergasted that during that descent there wasn't an attempt to send off a distress call/signal. That is of course if both pilots were conscious and working the problem and that their comms systems weren't already fried.

Cheers!

[mcfish]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

Im not an airline pilot but I am a licensed pilot and first thing you are taught in an emergency is " Aviate, navigate,communicate" makes sense if you think about it. No engineer, super computers made them redundant years ago

OK. So no engineer. But how about the distress call ? You say " aviate,navigate,communicate" which is a catchy phrase used in training I guess. But is that in priority order or a simultaneous thing ? And with what you know of the this incident so far, do you believe they could have put out a distress signal ? If of course they weren't physically incapacitated to do so or the comms system was already down.

Yes in that order. lots of info on google about it.

There are no distress signals that a pilot activates. He declares a mayday but only after the aircraft is under control . The plane broke up 3mins after the fire started so the situation was completely out of control.

[Mosha]

The timeline as I said elsewhere is puzzling expers. From the 1sr ACARS warning to the disappearance took a few minutes. Too long if it was a bomb, and too short if it was just a fire. BBC was also talking of lithium batteries. I don't know enough to know if the avionics bay contains them though.

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[Class C]

Was there some testing of surface-to-air missiles around the same time ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUukqYnydV8

p.s. I am not sure if the video is authentic

[Mosha]

Was there some testing of surface-to-air missiles around the same time ?

p.s. I am not sure if the video is authentic

I think we would have been told by now. The Americans were pretty quick to same something, after the Russian airliner crashed.

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[slipperylobster]

Was there some testing of surface-to-air missiles around the same time ?

p.s. I am not sure if the video is authentic

I think we would have been told by now. The Americans were pretty quick to same something, after the Russian airliner crashed.

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True, that the Russians shot down Malaysian Airlines in the Ukraine, so a surface to air missle (Russian made), could do the same in Egypt.

I do not think this was the case. Although it is possible that ground crew put a device on the aircraft.

Plenty aircraft flying missions in and round Syria...which is not far off.

However, one ship tracks another (Russia/USA), so it is very unlikely. Same with armed aircraft operating in and around Syria.

Nonsense, actually.

Edited May 22, 2016 by slipperylobster

[ikwiljou]

According to a Dutch website one of the Air Hossteses on board of this flight posted attached photo-shopped picture from her on her Facebook page last year. http://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2016/05/egyptair-stewardess-zette-jaar-geleden-gephotoshopte-foto-online-van-vliegtuig-dat-in-zee-stort/#

Edited May 22, 2016 by ikwiljou

[Mosha]

Daily Mirror quoting a military source, a black box has been located. You need to scroll down.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/egyptair-crash-debris-black-box-8010675

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[oldsailor35]

It is very sad to read how nasty and racist some "humans" are.My cousin is on board and many Egyptian Muslims also as well as Christians.Thai lady also on board as I had seen on twiter.I thought you would all have did some prayer for all those on board rather than being so ignorant and heartless if not totally mindless. I pray for their souls !!

At about 07:40L (05:40Z) Egyptair updated their statement saying, that the contact with the aircraft was lost 280km (151nm) from the Coast of Egypt at 02:30L (00:30Z). The crew comprised the captain, first officer, 5 cabin crew and 3 sky marshals. Amongst the passengers there were 30 Egyptians, 15 French, 2 Iraqis, 1 British, 1 Belgian, 1 Kuwaiti, 1 Saudi, 1 Sudanese, 1 Chadian, 1 Portugese, 1 Algerian and 1 Canadian.

No mention of a Thai so are you just trolling for a reaction?.

Back off! there can easily have been a Thai of dual nationality as with the Brit-Australian.

[oldsailor35]

I am aghast with this.I cant imagine the fear and panic of the people on board.It must be terrible.I have flown all over the world and many times with the same airline.

I left a building sit full of bricks behind me when one flight i was on experienced god awful turbulence.Just 'cos i was a frequent

flyer,never made me a good one..The small question i have is,that it was stated that 69 passengers and crew were on board.Now they are saying 66.What happened to the other three on the roster/passenger list?

There must be a good explanation but this was an enclosed situation.How does a company lose 3 people.

Just asking.

My heart goes out to all those lost and their relatives.

Shalom.

The three Egyptian Air marshalls perhaps !

[Buba Ho Tep]

The curse of Ho-Tep strikes again.

[allanos]

If a bomb was smuggled on board the aircraft in Paris, let's say, by baggage handlers, then the

timing for the explosion was set very late, in that the plane was only 20 minutes out from its

destination. One would have expected that detonation would be timed for approximately half-way

into the flight time, not close to arrival.

I lean more towards a different kind of calamity which brought the aircraft down.

And my heart goes out to all those on board who suffered through those last fateful minutes.

[Mosha]

My thought is if it had taken off on time, it may have been on final approach. Although I don't think it was a bomb. Well know more when the voice recorder is recovered.

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[oldsailor35]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?

Im not an airline pilot but I am a licensed pilot and first thing you are taught in an emergency is " Aviate, navigate,communicate" makes sense if you think about it. No engineer, super computers made them redundant years ago

OK. So no engineer. But how about the distress call ? You say " aviate,navigate,communicate" which is a catchy phrase used in training I guess. But is that in priority order or a simultaneous thing ? And with what you know of the this incident so far, do you believe they could have put out a distress signal ? If of course they weren't physically incapacitated to do so or the comms system was already down.

" if they weren't physically incapacitated " mmmmm This bears thinking about . Smoke in cockpit, or perhaps gas.

[PETERTHEEATER]

Then why did it take so long to find debris?

The BBC is reporting that thus particular plane had a problem with overheating engine last year.

And your point is?

If there was an engine problem last year it is very likely that the engine was replaced with another serviceable engine. Standard maintenance practice. Unlike a road vehicle the same engine(s) do not stay with the original airframe through its life being replaced periodically for overhaul.

[allanos]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

[Mosha]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

Could be that a fire, possibly below and behind the pilots in the avionics room. Had already got out of control.

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[allanos]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

Could be that a fire, possibly below and behind the pilots in the avionics room. Had already got out of control.

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Would that be the original design purpose of these sensors? Smoke/ fire detectors? Or would they

perhaps be for something else?

[dabhand]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

I believe the cockpit window warnings are related to heat issues.

The airline related website pprune.org has some detailed comments on this and other issues connected with MS804.

[allanos]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

I believe the cockpit window warnings are related to heat issues.

The airline related website pprune.org has some detailed comments on this and other issues connected with MS804.

Thanks for the info.

Much appreciated.

[Mosha]

IDK, the only smoke detectors I knew about before were the toilet ones. The front toilet is over the back of the avionics room if BBC is to be believed. Those other alarms make me think wires were being burnt through.

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[lkv]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

According to one interpretation of a poster on Avherald:

3044 Anti Ice Right Window - problem of window heat controller #2 followed by ECAM caution with SC

561200 Right Sliding Window sensor - problem of sensor without ECAM caution, will be a class 3 fault indicated only on GRD as the window will be heated without the sensor input but by a sequence within the software

2600 Smoke Lavatory Smoke - Smoke warning with ECAM and Master Warning in red

2600 Avionics Smoke - Smoke warning with ECAM and Master Warning in red

561100 Right Fixed Window Sensor - problem equal to 561200

2200 Auto Flight Flight Control Unit 2 Fault - FCU channel 2 lost with ECAM caution when not in use. If in use (mostly in cruise): AP disconnect with cavalary charge and red master warning and same caution on ECAM as not in use

2700 Flight Controls Spoiler Elevator Computer 3 Fault - SEC 3 fault with ECAM caution

According to an email apparently sent by Airbus to airlines:

FROM: AIRBUS PRODUCT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE

TO: ALL AIRBUS OPERATORS / ATTN.: FLIGHT SAFETY

Subject: A320-232 MSN 2088 Flight Number MS804 accident on 19 May 2016

Our ref.: Flight MS804 AIT#2, 21 May 2016

This AIT is an update of the AIT#1 re flight MS804 dated 19 May 2016.

While in cruise, the accident flight MS804 transmitted ACARS messages indicating within 3 minutes:

- UTC 00:26: ANTI ICE R WINDOW triggered by the Window Heat Computer #2 - associated with 2 maintenance messages corresponding to the temperature sensors of the 2 right cockpit windows:

o UTC 00:26: R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR

o UTC 00:28: R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR

- UTC 00:26: SMOKE LAVATORY & UTC 00:27: AVIONICS SMOKE : triggered by their respective optical detector;

- UTC 00:29: AUTO FLIGHT FCU 2 FAULT: second channel of the FCU detected fault.

- UTC 00:29: F/CTL SEC3 FAULT: third SEC computer detected fault.

There were no other messages.

With the limited data available, the analysis of these messages does not allow to establish the sequence of events that would explain the loss of flight MS804.

Pending more data become available (in particular flight data recorders and aircraft parts), Airbus has no specific recommendation to raise at this stage of the investigation.

In line with ICAO Annex 13 rules, we continue to provide full technical assistance to the French Investigation Agency - BEA - and the Egyptian Investigation Authorities who lead the technical investigation.

Further update will be provided as soon as consolidated information is available and Airbus is authorized to release them.

Yannick MALINGE

SVP - Chief Product Safety Officer

AIRBUS

Source: avherald.com

[allanos]

Can someone who is knowledgeable pass comment on the significance of the ACARS warning transmissions

regarding the sensor reports on the sliding and fixed cockpit windows? What are these sensors designed to

"sense"?

According to one interpretation of a poster on Avherald:

3044 Anti Ice Right Window - problem of window heat controller #2 followed by ECAM caution with SC

561200 Right Sliding Window sensor - problem of sensor without ECAM caution, will be a class 3 fault indicated only on GRD as the window will be heated without the sensor input but by a sequence within the software

2600 Smoke Lavatory Smoke - Smoke warning with ECAM and Master Warning in red

2600 Avionics Smoke - Smoke warning with ECAM and Master Warning in red

561100 Right Fixed Window Sensor - problem equal to 561200

2200 Auto Flight Flight Control Unit 2 Fault - FCU channel 2 lost with ECAM caution when not in use. If in use (mostly in cruise): AP disconnect with cavalary charge and red master warning and same caution on ECAM as not in use

2700 Flight Controls Spoiler Elevator Computer 3 Fault - SEC 3 fault with ECAM caution

According to an email apparently sent by Airbus to airlines:

FROM: AIRBUS PRODUCT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE

TO: ALL AIRBUS OPERATORS / ATTN.: FLIGHT SAFETY

Subject: A320-232 MSN 2088 Flight Number MS804 accident on 19 May 2016

Our ref.: Flight MS804 AIT#2, 21 May 2016

This AIT is an update of the AIT#1 re flight MS804 dated 19 May 2016.

While in cruise, the accident flight MS804 transmitted ACARS messages indicating within 3 minutes:

- UTC 00:26: ANTI ICE R WINDOW triggered by the Window Heat Computer #2 - associated with 2 maintenance messages corresponding to the temperature sensors of the 2 right cockpit windows:

o UTC 00:26: R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR

o UTC 00:28: R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR

- UTC 00:26: SMOKE LAVATORY & UTC 00:27: AVIONICS SMOKE : triggered by their respective optical detector;

- UTC 00:29: AUTO FLIGHT FCU 2 FAULT: second channel of the FCU detected fault.

- UTC 00:29: F/CTL SEC3 FAULT: third SEC computer detected fault.

There were no other messages.

With the limited data available, the analysis of these messages does not allow to establish the sequence of events that would explain the loss of flight MS804.

Pending more data become available (in particular flight data recorders and aircraft parts), Airbus has no specific recommendation to raise at this stage of the investigation.

In line with ICAO Annex 13 rules, we continue to provide full technical assistance to the French Investigation Agency - BEA - and the Egyptian Investigation Authorities who lead the technical investigation.

Further update will be provided as soon as consolidated information is available and Airbus is authorized to release them.

Yannick MALINGE

SVP - Chief Product Safety Officer

AIRBUS

Source: avherald.com

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to post the detail here.

Although one must assume that the toilet smoke detector related to the fore lavatory,

is it at all possible that it related to the aft lavatory?

[lkv]

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to post the detail here.

Although one must assume that the toilet smoke detector related to the fore lavatory,

is it at all possible that it related to the aft lavatory?

If roughly in the same time you get smoke below the cockpit in the avionics and smoke in the lavatory, it's safe to assume it's the lavatory that is right behind the cockpit on the left.

As I said again, I'm not an expert, just been reading all the comments on the mentioned website. Without advertising it indirectly, some posters there appear to know what they are talking about. I suggest you follow that. I am.

[rocketman777]

My son is an Airbus driver 319/320/321

From what he says the level of systems redundancy is truely amazing. 5 separate power generation systems. Two flight augmentation computers (FACS), Multiple power distribution buses

Doesn't sound innocent to me

If it is some of these people again there will be a reaction......

Worried

A problem with the two flight augmentation computers (FACS), was said, in the final crash report, to be a contributing factor to the crash of AirAsia Flight 8501

[Mosha]

Be careful with PPRUNE. Most posters are not pilots, despite PP being Professional Pilots, the rest is rumours network. AVHerald is more knowledgeable.

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