I need a battery charger

[JaseTheBass]

I recently bought a 6 Amp battery charger from a local electrical store that 
sells car & household hifi equipment, electronics, cables, etc..
I think it's a Thai brand, does the job well, and for only 480bt.

I've got one of those battery burners too. Throw it away and get a Ctek.

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer

[Pdaz]

On 6/2/2016 at 4:45 PM, JaseTheBass said:

I've also got the CTEK. Excellent piece of kit.

Yep I've got a CTEK too. Excellent and lightweight. Bought mine from eBay UK . delivered here in around a week.

[sotsira]

57 minutes ago, JaseTheBass said:

 

I've got one of those battery burners too. Throw it away and get a Ctek.

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer
 

 

As you can see in the pic, it's charging at just under 3 Amps, it's max is only 6 Amps.

 

Care to explain why you think a low output charger is a battery burner in your mind ?

 

How many Amps do you think an alternator distributes to the battery after a cold engine start ?

 (Clue)  Is it more than 6 Amps ?

 

If, like me, you use a multimeter and a hydrometer to monitor the battery electrolyte while being charged, then there's no reason to spend 4000bt + on a smart charger like you suggest with CTEK.

 

Batteries can be  damaged when charged with high output chargers for a prolonged period of 

time, and also a lack of sulphuric acid in each cell, and i'm talking high outputs of 50 Amps +++  

[JaseTheBass]

As you can see in the pic, it's charging at just under 3 Amps, it's max is only 6 Amps.
 
Care to explain why you think a low output charger is a battery burner in your mind ?
 
How many Amps do you think an alternator distributes to the battery after a cold engine start ?
 (Clue)  Is it more than 6 Amps ?
 
If, like me, you use a multimeter and a hydrometer to monitor the battery electrolyte while being charged, then there's no reason to spend 4000bt + on a smart charger like you suggest with CTEK.
 
Batteries can be  damaged when charged with high output chargers for a prolonged period of 
time, and also a lack of sulphuric acid in each cell, and i'm talking high outputs of 50 Amps +++  

I prefer to let a specialist piece of equipment look after and condition my car's battery, rather than a simplistic piece of equipment designed in the Edwardian Era and built in Somchai's sala.

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer

[sotsira]

1 minute ago, JaseTheBass said:

 

I prefer to let a specialist piece of equipment look after and condition my car's battery, rather than a simplistic piece of equipment designed in the Edwardian Era and built in Somchai's sala.

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer
 

 

Now your just showing how ignorant you are on this topic 

 

Since when is a multi meter (which is used by every electrical technician across the world)

not a sophisticated piece of equipment ? 

And a necessary piece of equipment.

 

And to this day, a hydrometer is the only tool that can check each individual cells 

electrolyte levels.

 

But you keep on believing in your overpriced consumer trap specialist charger that it

can do all those things. LOL.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

Bought mine in the Vientiane Morning Market about 15+ years ago. It still works. 

[JaseTheBass]

Bought mine in the Vientiane Morning Market about 15+ years ago. It still works. 

A Ctek or an archaic brute charger?

Sent from my Cray II supercomputer

[JAS21]

2 hours ago, sotsira said:

Now your just showing how ignorant you are on this topic 

 

Since when is a multi meter (which is used by every electrical technician across the world)

not a sophisticated piece of equipment ? 

And a necessary piece of equipment.

 

And to this day, a hydrometer is the only tool that can check each individual cells 

electrolyte levels.

 

But you keep on believing in your overpriced consumer trap specialist charger that it

can do all those things. LOL.

 

 

No ... it is clear you are not up to date on  batteries and smart chargers ...please google and then come back to this topic fully re-trained and up to speed ...☺

[transam]

2 hours ago, sotsira said:

Now your just showing how ignorant you are on this topic 

 

Since when is a multi meter (which is used by every electrical technician across the world)

not a sophisticated piece of equipment ? 

And a necessary piece of equipment.

 

And to this day, a hydrometer is the only tool that can check each individual cells 

electrolyte levels.

 

But you keep on believing in your overpriced consumer trap specialist charger that it

can do all those things. LOL.

 

 

My multi-meter tells me about voltage but not about stored available Amps, the stored Amps are what I want to know about to turn my high compression motor...

[Pib]

4 hours ago, sotsira said:

Now your just showing how ignorant you are on this topic 

 

Since when is a multi meter (which is used by every electrical technician across the world)

not a sophisticated piece of equipment ? 

And a necessary piece of equipment.

 

And to this day, a hydrometer is the only tool that can check each individual cells 

electrolyte levels.

 

But you keep on believing in your overpriced consumer trap specialist charger that it

can do all those things. LOL.

 

 

Use of a hydrometer is only one indicator of battery condition...it can not measure true charge capacity, internal resistance, plate sulfation, and other things.  It's kinda like taking the temperature of person who is feeling ill....his temperature measures 98.6F (normal) but he is still sick.  Plus a hydrometer can't be use on sealed batteries.

 

Here's a nice layman's article on battery testing & maintenance

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/hweb4.pdf

 

 

[sotsira]

3 hours ago, transam said:

My multi-meter tells me about voltage but not about stored available Amps, the stored Amps are what I want to know about to turn my high compression motor...

Then you need one of these, Amp load testers/Voltage tester.

 

[sotsira]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Use of a hydrometer is only one indicator of battery condition...it can not measure true charge capacity, internal resistance, plate sulfation, and other things.  It's kinda like taking the temperature of person who is feeling ill....his temperature measures 98.6F (normal) but he is still sick.  Plus a hydrometer can't be use on sealed batteries.

 

Here's a nice layman's article on battery testing & maintenance

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/hweb4.pdf

 

 

And the first page of your layman article shows a picture of a hydrometer being used,

funny that isn't it.

 

Also your analogy is somewhat flawed, as the hydrometer can specifically identify each 

individual cells condition as to whether a battery is serviceable or not.

 

And for your information, i never stated that a hydrometer is all that is required to test a 

battery, i also mentioned the use of a multimeter, a charger and an Amp/Voltage load tester

in my above posts.

You need all of these items to work with battery maintenance procedures.

[sotsira]

5 hours ago, JAS21 said:

No ... it is clear you are not up to date on  batteries and smart chargers ...please google and then come back to this topic fully re-trained and up to speed ...☺

You keep on reading on the latest gadgets being marketed on the internet and continue to fall in to the 

consumer trap that is promoted by the use of the internet and keep believing everything a company 

says regarding their products.

These companies need people like you, with little knowledge but great belief.

 

Whilst i'll continue to use the knowledge and experience i've gained working as an auto electrical

technician for one of the best car manufacturers in the world with 25years experience.

Have a good evening. 

[Pib]

It's been quite a few years since I've been able to use a hydrometer since I now use maintenance free batteries which have no removable caps to access the electrolyte.

[Pib]

For those people rely on the sight glass tester built into may batteries now days, don't put too much faith in that as to the condition of your battery as they are nothing more than a hydrometer and are only inserted/testing "one" of the six cells in a 12V battery.  

 

The sight glass tells you  nothing about the other 5 cells.   The sight glass could actually give you a "green eye/color" (i.e., all is well with the battery) when in fact any of the other cells (or all) could be failing/defective.  

 

But assuming the one cell the sight glass is inserted in/monitoring it can be indicative of overall battery condition...the condition of the electrolyte in all cells.

 

[JAS21]

47 minutes ago, sotsira said:

You keep on reading on the latest gadgets being marketed on the internet and continue to fall in to the 

consumer trap that is promoted by the use of the internet and keep believing everything a company 

says regarding their products.

These companies need people like you, with little knowledge but great belief.

 

Whilst i'll continue to use the knowledge and experience i've gained working as an auto electrical

technician for one of the best car manufacturers in the world with 25years experience.

Have a good evening. 

As you will be aware I initiated this topic about a year ago. I just wanted something that I could stick on and forget. CTEK seemed to be the obvious choice. I'm not convinced that your nuclear 'thingee' would have fitted the bill. I recall in the 60's having something that looked very much like that.

 

Many upmarket/so called supercars have a CTEK built in so that all the owner needs to do connect up.  Ford developed their smart charging system some years ago now, not a gimmick.

 

 

I honestly think that batteries and battery chargers have developed in the last fifty years or so. Sure your 'manual' battery charger will do a job, but I certainly don't believe it will look after a battery as well as a 'so called' smart charger eg CTEK. And to be honest ... nor/neither do you ...   

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by JAS21

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, sotsira said:

Whilst i'll continue to use the knowledge and experience i've gained working as an auto electrical

technician for one of the best car manufacturers in the world with 25years experience.

Have a good evening. 

I've used my DIY knowledge gain by courtesy of owning s/h Fords when l was younger.

Batteries were just batteries,  same in Thailand IMO.

I have bought a cool little battery charger early last year from the electrical shop in my village it has a switch for wet or dry battery charging and the green light goes off when the battery is charged at 240 baht it works a treat. 

[transam]

My battery charger (now in the bin) used to show 13.6v when charging, but l think it was a weeee bit low on amps for my size of battery....Anyhooo, l read that my Boliden SC should have a charger that uses 14.5v to get things moving off the plates.......

[Pib]

Most battery/charger manufacturers recommend 15 to 16V for 2 to 3 hours to accomplish an equalization charge....to hopefully get some of the sulfation off the plates.   

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

Getting a low cost charger that puts out over 15V can be a challenge.  Generally, most battery/charger manufacturers say 15 to 16V is needed to accomplish an equalization charge.  But I seen a few which said around 14.5V may be enough if charging for an extended time.   

 

In looking for a low cost charger about the most any of them put out per their specs is 14.4V like the specs for the one below I order in 2015 and still using to do an equalization charge on my GS battery every 6 months or so.   According to several digital and analog voltmeters is actually puts out around 15.5V.  So every 6 months or so I do an equalization charge for 2.5 hours.   I have also installed a battery desulfater in the SUV.  

 

 

Come the 21st of this month (June) the battery will be 24 months old....it's used on my 2009 Fortuner 3.0L Diesel.   This is the 5th battery I've had on this 2009 Fortuner bought new in Oct 08   In earlier posts in this thread I gave a run down of how long the other 4 batteries lasted....longest lasting battery was a Boliden SC which lasted 28 months, but a later  Boliden SC only lasted 15 months.

 

This GS battery is the only battery that I have done equalization charges on and I also installed a desulfater.   Time will tell if the GS battery outlast with the help of equalization charges and a desulfater helps to outlast my previous 4 batteries talked about below....but it has already outlast 3 of the 4 and a little over 4 months away from outlasting my longest latest battery....keeping my fingers crossed. 

 

See post below for a history of my batteries on my Fortuner with a perfectly good charging system.

 

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

Most battery/charger manufacturers recommend 15 to 16V for 2 to 3 hours to accomplish an equalization charge....to hopefully get some of the sulfation off the plates

 

When briefly looked up on chargers they were not quoting voltages of chargers they were quoting Amp hour outage.  

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

 

When briefly looked up on chargers they were not quoting voltages of chargers they were quoting Amp hour outage.  

That's just the way chargers spec/rate themselves in terms of how much amperage/amp hour they can put out.  During some phases of the complete charge cycle they will be varying the voltage X-amount whlle varying the amperage....but as the battery gains charge it's voltage begins to reach/match the voltage of the charger and the amperage will reduce.   The second image in post 50 above shows how the voltage/amperage will vary during the varies phase of the charge cycle.   But it all boils down to the voltage, current, and resistance factors in the battery and charger.

[Pib]

I think this short document with pictures and in layman's language give a good overview of the equalization and desulphation of lead acid batteries.   It's provided by Chargetek....a major manufacturer of chargers.

 

http://www.chargetek.com/images/pdfs/equal.pdf

 

Partial quote from above document follows:

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Pib

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

That's just the way chargers spec/rate themselves in terms of how much amperage/amp hour they can put out.  During some phases of the complete charge cycle they will be varying the voltage X-amount whlle varying the amperage....but as the battery gains charge it's voltage begins to reach/match the voltage of the charger and the amperage will reduce.   The second image in post 50 above shows how the voltage/amperage will vary during the varies phase of the charge cycle.   But it all boils down to the voltage, current, and resistance factors in the battery and charger.

My one is a 3 amp charger with wet & dry modes the green light is very bright from start then starts to get dimmer then flickers and goes out when battery is charged.

 

You made think l'm nuts but l wanted to keep a eye on what the charger was doing when charging a battery because it was a new charger but sort of an old type to me, if you get my meaning. 

 

Anyway instead of watching likened to paint dry l set my road cam on it and recorded the progress and was able fast forward on replay so l understood what the charger was doing.

 

[JAS21]

Sorry that this is a bit wordy guys ... but You might find this interesting …

 

When the EV had its first service in Aug 2016 the guy told me that I should expect to have to replace the battery after about two years and that they had to do it as they said they need to set something up.

 

Later I found out that it is the smart charging system BUT if your battery stays charged after changing you don’t need to have them adjust the settings immediately. And anyway at service the smart charging set up is checked and adjusted if necessary.

 

 I did gleam that it’s best to maintain the circuit when changing the battery … I have kept an old battery for that purpose, although you are supposed to be able to use a 9V battery. I’m not paying Ford prices to change the battery and I will have a reasonably free choice of battery.

 

So at service they use a Medtronic’s tester … not sure how much it really tells you but …

 

Now before the first service I had never used a battery charger on that battery. Afterwards I purchased a CTEK 5.0 and used it frequently and did one Recon cycle in the period.

 

I did use the CTEK the night before the service. I attach the two test results … The Aug 2016 has faded badly but I managed to recover some information.

From my understanding the battery at 18months old looked better than at nine months old …

 

[Pib]

EV?  Electric Vehicle maybe?

 

Quite a bit of difference between 12.82V and 13.22V when it comes to vehicle batteries.  Was that 12.82V reading taking with the vehicle not running?  

 

A fully charged 12V battery will read approx 12.65V "when the surface charge is drained off."  Surface charge is a very top level charge that will exist for X-minutes after turning the vehicle off.    I can easily see a 12.82V reading shortly after turning off the vehicle and measuring the battery voltage.

 

Was the 13.22V measured with the vehicle running?   13.2V is usually the lower end of the "float charge" region when a vehicle is running where a "small" charge is being applied just to keep the battery topped up.   With the modern day vehicle where the vehicle computer is also controlling the alternator output, 13.2 to 14.0V is usually the charging out of the alternator.  It would be closer to 14V right after starting the vehicle and as the battery recovers/takes a charge from the amperage drained during the staring process the charging voltage will usually run around 13.2 to 13.6V depending in engine speed.   Older vehicles, before the days of the computer also controlling alternator output charging voltage over 14V were routinely seen.

[JAS21]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

EV?  Electric Vehicle maybe?

 

Quite a bit of difference between 12.82V and 13.22V when it comes to vehicle batteries.  Was that 12.82V reading taking with the vehicle not running?  

 

A fully charged 12V battery will read approx 12.65V "when the surface charge is drained off."  Surface charge is a very top level charge that will exist for X-minutes after turning the vehicle off.    I can easily see a 12.82V reading shortly after turning off the vehicle and measuring the battery voltage.

 

Was the 13.22V measured with the vehicle running?   13.2V is usually the lower end of the "float charge" region when a vehicle is running where a "small" charge is being applied just to keep the battery topped up.   With the modern day vehicle where the vehicle computer is also controlling the alternator output, 13.2 to 14.0V is usually the charging out of the alternator.  It would be closer to 14V right after starting the vehicle and as the battery recovers/takes a charge from the amperage drained during the staring process the charging voltage will usually run around 13.2 to 13.6V depending in engine speed.   Older vehicles, before the days of the computer also controlling alternator output charging voltage over 14V were routinely seen.

As shown tester was a Medtronics  MDX-P300 ... one would hope that the garage tested the battery as per the test manual ... google device and you can download pdf manual...testing was done with battery in car...I know for a fact.

 

Of course one hopes that the 'paper result' was actually from my battery ....

Edited June 6, 2017 by JAS21

[Gary A]

I'm certainly no battery charger techy, that's why I have to believe that you get what you pay for. I tried to buy a charger locally and all I could find was cheap ones. I finally ordered one from AliExpress. It wasn't cheap but it was described as being totally automatic. All you have to do is hook up the leads to the battery and plug in the charger. It apparently has three ranges. two amp, ten amp and fifteen amp, at least that is what is printed on the charger. I was disappointed to see that everything is in Chinese but connecting to the batteries and just plugging it in has always done the job.

 

I have a small solar system in my computer room. Not often but once in awhile we have several days of no sun at all. I have a four battery bank and hooking up to it charges the battery bank enough to last until the sun comes back out.

 

It apparently is automatic because the LED amperage reading goes up and down depending on the charge of the battery. I have two full time voltage meters hooked to the battery bank, one directly in front of the inverter and the other directly to the batteries. I don't discharge my battery bank below 50 percent. (12.2 volts). The sealed AGM batteries are now nearly four years old and show no signs of weakness.

[Kwasaki]

13 minutes ago, Gary A said:

It apparently has three ranges. two amp, ten amp and fifteen amp,

At last an  ' Amp '  post. 

Mine is a Thai made charger for 6 volt or 12 volt at a 3 amp rate.

[Pib]

8 hours ago, JAS21 said:

As shown tester was a Medtronics  MDX-P300 ... one would hope that the garage tested the battery as per the test manual ... google device and you can download pdf manual...testing was done with battery in car...I know for a fact.

 

Of course one hopes that the 'paper result' was actually from my battery ....

The MDX-P300 is basically a battery "conductance" tester, voltmeter, and a printer.  

 

A conductance test is basically sending some low frequency waves through the battery to measure some characteristics of the battery. 

 

The voltmeter function of the tester just reads/reports a voltage level like when charging and starting where you want to see certain voltage levels.  

 

While testing, like during the starting test, this tester does "not" put any load on the battery...it just measures the voltage and then gives a verbal and numeric readout like Normal and 11.16V.   But entering the specific CCA for the battery is important to the readout given.  

 

I notice in the two print outs that two different Cold Cranking Ratings were punched into the battery for testing...first time 666 amps and second time 740 amps.   That was an error by the mechanice as that reference setting would affect the CCA Measured readout and the Starter test.   Your battery has a specific CCA rating  and that rating must be entered into the tester before doing the test to get teh most accurate reading, especially for the conductance test and Starter test.   Is your battery's CCA rating 666, 740, or ????.   If it's not on the battery or the paperwork that came with it look it up at the manufactuer's website.

 

Regarding the Starter test where it measures the lowest voltage level while cranking/starting the engine, usually for most testers a reading of less that 9V would result in a Bad/Replace battery indication, 9 to 10.5V a Weak battery, and about 10.5 and higher a Good/Normal battery.  

 

But the CCA rating of the battery will determine the upper Weak battery trigger point.  Like for a 100 CCA battery the weak battery region would be around 9 to 10V.  For a 600 CCA rated battery the weak battery region around 9 to 10.5V, and a 1000 CCA rated battery 9 to 11V.   Now I expect your battery has a CCA rating in the 600 to 740 CCA ballpark so you would be dealing with a typical voltage ranges for battery condition....less than 9 volts a Bad battery, 9 to 10.5V a Weak battery, and above 10.5V a Good/Normal battery.  

 

And if you engine size is say a small, "low compression," petrol/gasoline engine a 10V reading during the Starter test is probably going to be more than enough to quickly start/crank/spin you engine.  But the same battery installed in a larger, high compression, diesel engine may struggle to crank very fast as a diesel engine put a lot more strain/load on a starter due to the high compression nature of diesel engine whereas gasoline/petrol engine are generally low compression which means less starting/cranking strain on the battery.