Strict checks on work permits after American might have submitted fake papers

[george]

The Phuket authority imposes strict checks on work permit issuances after a foreigner is found to have applied with false papers.

PHUKET: -- The Phuket Employment Office filed a legal charge against an American national who was found to have a law firm submitted false documents for his work permit application. The Office Chief Bunchote Maneechote gave details of the case saying that the man designated a law firm a power of attorney to apply for his work permit.

The authority later proved that the copied documents and the actual visa did not match. The legal investigation will determine whether the law firm or the applicant himself submitted false papers.

Mr. Bunchote stressed that strict checks will be applied. All work permit applicants must report themselves to the office with their original passports to prevent any future false document cases.

--thaisnews.com 2006-11-08

[thaitanic]

The legal investigation will determine whether the law firm or the applicant himself submitted false papers.

I know which one my money is on.

What a PITA if we have to go ourselves now because of this. Just when they had made things easier

[Nam Kao]

I didnt think the "round-up" would start til Jan. oh well

[Sunbelt Asia]

Someone called us today. Had been rejected for a extension of stay based on business because they had a negative equity of 2 million Baht. Was wondering if they removed the brackets showing the negative from the audit, if the government would check?

Our response was “was going to prison and being deported, worth it, to possibly get a extension of stay?” Then again the extension of stay in prison would be certainly one he would not want!

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[lingling]

I know which one my money is on.

Same here, my bet is on the law firm. I was once asked to sign five blank sheets of paper when using a work permit lawyer. I was very hesitant, but they promised to return them all to me within a week, or copies so I could see how they had been used. Got three blank ones back but no evidence of how they had been used...

Don't sign any blank documents, application forms that has not been filled out completely (!), and when signing photocopies sign over the thing copied (e.g. passport) and write what the copy is for.

The law firm in this case is unlikely to get any punishment for this even if it turns out they falsified document to take a shortcut...

Edited November 8, 2006 by lingling

[Sunbelt Asia]

The authority later proved that the copied documents and the actual visa did not match.

It seems like the problem was the visa stamp was false.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[fanclubcm]

The Phuket authority imposes strict checks on work permit issuances after a foreigner is found to have applied with false papers.

PHUKET: -- The Phuket Employment Office filed a legal charge against an American national who was found to have a law firm submitted false documents for his work permit application. The Office Chief Bunchote Maneechote gave details of the case saying that the man designated a law firm a power of attorney to apply for his work permit.

The authority later proved that the copied documents and the actual visa did not match. The legal investigation will determine whether the law firm or the applicant himself submitted false papers.

Mr. Bunchote stressed that strict checks will be applied. All work permit applicants must report themselves to the office with their original passports to prevent any future false document cases.

--thaisnews.com 2006-11-08

"YOU GET WHAT YOU NEED BUT CAN'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT" [M. J.] eeee ehh!

[danone]

why they make a fuss now? people get caught here all the time with fake application papers.

[samran]

why they make a fuss now? people get caught here all the time with fake application papers.

Maybe they are sick of people trying it on......

One of the things that always makes me laugh about this type of story is that there seems to be the perception that civil servants (or thai's in general) are a dumb group of people who are easily fooled. I think this perception stems from the fact that the upper echelons of thai society, business and government do get away with shenanigans, then the case must be the same for the lower levels. Wrong...unless you are a serious phuu yai, then in many cases, rules are simply the rules.

My personal experience, having had the 'pleasure' of dealing with Australian, UK and Thai officialdom is that in the main, Thai officialdom win hands down (and I have the 'correct' paperwork to easily live and work in all three places). Tax returns in LOS are straight forward to process from calculating to submitting, my ID card and passport are issued quickly, easily and safely (via a high tech central database), bank accounts are easy enough to open, and my car was simple enough to register after transfering the owner.

Compare this to the UK (tried getting a bank account or an NI number? MY GAWD) or Australia (Australian tax returns...long and complicated!) and you'll be amazed how efficient the Thai system actually can be..

[boes]

The Phuket authority imposes strict checks on work permit issuances after a foreigner is found to have applied with false papers.

PHUKET: -- The Phuket Employment Office filed a legal charge against an American national who was found to have a law firm submitted false documents for his work permit application. The Office Chief Bunchote Maneechote gave details of the case saying that the man designated a law firm a power of attorney to apply for his work permit.

The authority later proved that the copied documents and the actual visa did not match. The legal investigation will determine whether the law firm or the applicant himself submitted false papers.

Mr. Bunchote stressed that strict checks will be applied. All work permit applicants must report themselves to the office with their original passports to prevent any future false document cases.

--thaisnews.com 2006-11-08

There will be lots of this in the future ! January 1.st 07- I understand that lots of people are stressed of the new visa - rules. Just take a look at the propertymarket - in Phuket-Gazette 476 business-opportunities for sale - in "The Nation" about 500 for sale. It speeks for itself... I`m trying to get out of here....asap - Thailand - goodnigth

[Chua]

The Phuket authority imposes strict checks on work permit issuances after a foreigner is found to have applied with false papers.

PHUKET: -- The Phuket Employment Office ....

Mr. Bunchote stressed that strict checks will be applied. All work permit applicants must report themselves to the office with their original passports to prevent any future false document cases.

--thaisnews.com 2006-11-08

These kinds of checks are standard procedure on Koh Samui already. The farrang has to show up with a valid passport and proper visa or no work permit.

[helicoptor]

you can fool some of the people some of the time, etc

My NON B Visa application went to Consulate today following receipt of Thai company papers - hope all is well

[mitrapaap]

why they make a fuss now? people get caught here all the time with fake application papers.

Maybe they are sick of people trying it on......

One of the things that always makes me laugh about this type of story is that there seems to be the perception that civil servants (or thai's in general) are a dumb group of people who are easily fooled. I think this perception stems from the fact that the upper echelons of thai society, business and government do get away with shenanigans, then the case must be the same for the lower levels. Wrong...unless you are a serious phuu yai, then in many cases, rules are simply the rules.

My personal experience, having had the 'pleasure' of dealing with Australian, UK and Thai officialdom is that in the main, Thai officialdom win hands down (and I have the 'correct' paperwork to easily live and work in all three places). Tax returns in LOS are straight forward to process from calculating to submitting, my ID card and passport are issued quickly, easily and safely (via a high tech central database), bank accounts are easy enough to open, and my car was simple enough to register after transfering the owner.

Compare this to the UK (tried getting a bank account or an NI number? MY GAWD) or Australia (Australian tax returns...long and complicated!) and you'll be amazed how efficient the Thai system actually can be..

Thanks a lot! Finally somebody who has enough experiences to realize that it's not all that bad in Thailand. And if cheaters and trickers get caught that's not bad at all! I fully agree with you. I have all my papers legally correct and I have never had any problems with any officials. They have always been friendly and very cooperative. I would guess that depends mainly from the attitude with which you walk in. The only one time one was unfriendly was at the immigration office when he told me "I think you better speak english". But you know what? He was absolutely right. My Thai was desastrous at that time while his english was much better.

Edited November 8, 2006 by mitrapaap

[JimsKnight]

why they make a fuss now? people get caught here all the time with fake application papers.

I think as its a local problem at phuket it should only affect that area. The governments quiet for now on it and I can't see a nationwide clamp down. Any bogus paperwork thats picked up is at provincial level will just mean a sharper focus there rather than the whole of thailand.

[mitrapaap]

why they make a fuss now? people get caught here all the time with fake application papers.

I think as its a local problem at phuket it should only affect that area. The governments quiet for now on it and I can't see a nationwide clamp down. Any bogus paperwork thats picked up is at provincial level will just mean a sharper focus there rather than the whole of thailand.

In Bangkok you have to show up yourself for the visa extension. Your lawyer or visa dealer can do all the paperwork, but at the end you have to be there. Not even need to open your mouth, just sit there so they can see you. This is so since at least 2 or 3 years.

[dotcom]

I think the point is that the little guy (the falang) will get some jail time while the dodgy law firm will get off scott free.

Dual standard is in effect.

[Maestro]

In Bangkok you have to show up yourself for the visa extension...This is so since at least 2 or 3 years.

The original post was about the work permit, handled by the employment office. You are talking about what the immigration office does.

--------------

Maestro

[Maestro]

I think the point is that the little guy (the falang) will get some jail time while the dodgy law firm will get off scott free.

I wonder if the copies of the passport pages had to be signed, and if so, who signed them.

--------------

Maestro

[StevenCalifornia]

The Phuket authority imposes strict checks on work permit issuances after a foreigner is found to have applied with false papers.

PHUKET: -- The Phuket Employment Office filed a legal charge against an American national who was found to have a law firm submitted false documents for his work permit application. The Office Chief Bunchote Maneechote gave details of the case saying that the man designated a law firm a power of attorney to apply for his work permit.

The authority later proved that the copied documents and the actual visa did not match. The legal investigation will determine whether the law firm or the applicant himself submitted false papers.

Mr. Bunchote stressed that strict checks will be applied. All work permit applicants must report themselves to the office with their original passports to prevent any future false document cases.

--thaisnews.com 2006-11-08

The next time an american tries to forge a document, tell them not to use crayons

[Hublet]

The Thai Gov officials in both the Dept of Labour and the Dept Immi have always checked paperwork just not everytime you visit.

The fact that someone was stupid enough to try the fake paperwork again is ludicrous. In early 2005 a Thai Minister lost everything when he was found to have begun his career on the basis of a fake BA degree. Over his career he went on to get himself a real Masters and a PhD but when he got caught they took everything, his career, his house, his job of course and he was sent to the Bangkok Hilton.

What surprises me is that there are so many foreigners working in Thailand with work permits based on fake documents. A degree is required to make a work permit legal.

The other thing that of course has got people worried is that even if you are doing everything right the legal way when the time comes for Farang business owners to renew their B visa you must have one million baht in the bank (this is on top of the equity of a 2 million baht company). How many small or smallish companies can afford to have one million baht sitting in a bank account doing nothing? Now one million baht doesn't sound like much to a foreigner but to a person who lives and works and is paid in baht (with no income from outside Thailand) that is a lot of money.

[siampolee]

Well here we go again the Oh so honest concerned Thai Goverment srvants and all those lovely indignant Farangs jumping up and down defending assorted actions and defending and attacking on diverse fronts.

HEY SPARE A THOUGHT PLEASE FOR THE ABUSED BURMESE,LAO AND OTHER IMMIGRANT WORKERS HERE AND THE POOR UNEDUCATED PEASANTS WHO ARE ABUSED BY IN THE CASE OF THE UNEDUCATED THAIS THER OWN PEOPLE AND IN THE CASE OF THE IMMIGRANT WORKERS THEY ARE HUSTLED BY THE CORRUPT POLICE AND THE CORRUPT EMPLOYERS ANYONE OF US WILLING TO SPEAK UP FOR THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE ?

No we are all ensconced safely in our privilieged lifestyles why should we have a conscience?

The guy took a short cut it failed, the company ,well perhapd they were less than honest as perhaps was the guy who was caught.

My sympathy is for the ethic groups here who are reviled and abused by the so called master race of Thais.

[Hublet]

Well said R4199246. I couldn't have put it better myself. What the h*ll do these people who are complaining about think Thailand is? A place to run away from their obligations in their own country or maybe because they think living a fantasy in LOS will answer all their prayers. Thailand is now waking up to the fact that there are so many foreigner there that are taking the mickey out of them by circumnavigating the laws through loop holes. They are not as dumb as you think and sooner or later these people will I hope be caught.

As far as I am concern everyone who is breaking the laws of Thailand should be either deported back to where they cam from (if they'll have them) or maybe a stay in the wonderful Bangkok Hilton.

Until Thailand really does cramp down (and I don't believe they have yet) Thailand will comtinue to have a name as a place where low life can go and get away with anything as long as they have money. The same applies to the Burman/Laotian/Cambodian people. Oh I know their life is miserable but they too have the law to abide by and can work in Thailand legally if they do the paperwork (like everyone else).

[marshbags]

Someone called us today. Had been rejected for a extension of stay based on business because they had a negative equity of 2 million Baht. Was wondering if they removed the brackets showing the negative from the audit, if the government would check?

Our response was “was going to prison and being deported, worth it, to possibly get a extension of stay?” Then again the extension of stay in prison would be certainly one he would not want!

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Ther is only one sure safe way to get and a visa and keep legal.

Use a company of proven integrity and ethics.

I think Sunbelt here in Thailand for one have earned the right to be classed in this group and have also given lot,s of free advice out to T.Visa members.

Another is Scouses company ( U.K. based i think ? ) who i reckon has earned our support and Scouse as we know is one of several on the Thai visa section who all deserve Kudos Mak Mak for their continual assistance.

Of course the 2 companies i mention run a business and are not a charity but, they demonstrate via their continual free advice that it,s not all about making money and we as members know the amount of things they assist us with, along with the mods.

So for my money use and recommend them when it,s good advice, help and integrity you want.

That way if it,s possible to obtain your needs legally it will be achieved and you will not be risking the penalties, i.e. fines, jail and deportation ect.

If it isn,t they will tell you and advise against it.

In my humble opinion, so pass the word round to your friends ect. please and give them the support they have rightly earned.

marshbags

Edited November 9, 2006 by marshbags

[robenroute]

It's a good thing the government (agencies) are checking legitimacy of stay/papers/what have you. I've been working in this country for quite a few years and I've seen it over and over again: faking diplomas, degrees (you wouldn't believe how many "teachers" are here on fake papers!), certificates, passports, permits, etc. I guess people do it because it's easy to do and relatively cheap. On top of that, the chances of getting caught are slim. Corruption comes into the equation as well: slip a few notes to a person in a certain position and you're okay.

Passing heavy sentences on the fraudulent lot is fine by me. It's just a shame when unsuspecting people get drawn into it and become, unwillingly, victims.

[Scott]

Where I work our administration office has always prepared and submitted the papers for a WP for us. Most is in Thai, so people sign whatever they write--they are honest and wouldn't put down anything that was knowingly wrong. We have always, however, had to go and present ourselves to pick up the work permit. We haven't had to be there when it was submitted, but did when it was picked up. We haven't had to go for the annual renewal (up to now).

[Mat268]

I worked in Phuket for 9 years, and had to visit the Labour Office and Immigration one time per year for renewal... Same here in BKK now...nothing unusual.......I bet our home countries do the same.....

[Casanundra]

When I got my latest job here in LOS, which is a senior high profile job, a 'real' check was done on all three of my degrees with the Universities concerned. In addition to that I had to file a police report saying I had no criminal record which i had to get from the UK as well as work for 6 months on probation before I was fully accepted into the fold.

Why did they put these conditions on me? Well believe it or not, the so called professionals who worked before me all turned out to be guys who swanned on in with fake credentials and shall we say very unscrupulous backgrounds. At first the Thai management took them all on trust only to find out over the course of time that certain things didn't quite add up with these guys.

In the end, one did a runner and was never seen or heard of again after they demanded a check on his credentials, another ended up in jail for two years before going back to Holland to serve 10 years for tax fraud and the third was arrested by the Anti-money laundering team for fraud and for doing things with other peoples money that he shouldn't have been doing.

As a consequence I had to jump through several extra hoops to show that not all foreigners who work here are swindling cads. My degrees in total cost me about 30,000 GBP in total plus 10 years of my life to complete, yet in many respects those of us with real credentials are still competing for the same jobs as those who are 'trying it on' by committing what in a legal sense is fraud because let's face it, if you submit false documents then that is exactly what it is.

So for the cheaters out there, what's next for you guys when they start checking on the authenticity of the documents you produce? Identify theft?

There is only so much cheating you can do before someone eventually catches up with you and I for one will always take the moral ground on this one. if you get caught cheating, then so sorry for you, but you fail and deserve the consequences that you have created for yourself!

Sooner or later everyone who cheats gets caught, ask Frank Abingale from 'catch me if you can' he will be the first to tell you and he was one of the best.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Casanundra

[racefan]

I work for a Thai lawfirm, having spent 30+ years in the legal profession in England.

I was working initially at our Koh Samui office and transferred to the Jomtien Beach office last December as I own a property here and have many friends here, and I found out that the novelty of Samui soon wears off.

My work permit was issued from Surrathani Province, but allows me to work at any of the firm's 4 branches.

When the work permit was renewed last month, other than signing the required papers, I was not required to attend anywhere, and the new work permit was sent to me by the Samui office.

Many posters to this thread have jumped to the conclusion that the law firm who represented the American in question were guilty of submitting forged documents.

In my experience of working here, although there are not the strict compliance regulations as are enforced on the legal profession in England, the Thais are very strict on the correct paperwork being presented for all matters whether they be related to property purchase, company setups, visas etc.

There is far more paperwork involved in a simple condo purchase contract here than for the purchase of a flat in England.

I do not think that a reputable lawfirm for a fee of about 10,000 baht would willingly risk submitting forged documentation to assist a client to get a work permit knowing what the consequences could be.

[lopburi3]

So who said anything about them being reputable?

It seems to be that they did in fact submit false documents but the question is if they know this or not. From at least one report it was a false visa stamp so it sounds as if the applicant may have provided a passport with a false stamp (which would make it interesting for find the source) - but it could also mean someone switched passport photos so we really don't have any information to base a judgment on in my non lawyer mind.

[digitele]

Maybe they are sick of people trying it on......

One of the things that always makes me laugh about this type of story is that there seems to be the perception that civil servants (or thai's in general) are a dumb group of people who are easily fooled.

you'll be amazed how efficient the Thai system actually can be..

Thanks a lot! Finally somebody who has enough experiences to realize that it's not all that bad in Thailand. And if cheaters and trickers get caught that's not bad at all! I fully agree with you. I have all my papers legally correct and I have never had any problems with any officials. They have always been friendly and very cooperative. I would guess that depends mainly from the attitude with which you walk in.

I agree. Some people can mess up an empty room.

Makes it easier actually for stand up types. TIT and that does count.