BTS Buys 46 Trains from Siemens AG and CRRC Changchun for 11 Billion Baht

[webfact]

BTS Buys 46 Trains from Siemens AG and CRRC Changchun for 11 Billion Baht
BY VIRAJ SHAJ



BANGKOK: - BTS Group Holding’s Bangkok Mass Transit System came to an agreement with CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles and Siemens AG to purchase 46 trains in total for a price of 11 billion baht. The company is responsible for the skytrain in Bangkok.

The announcement suggests that the 46 trains will be part of the Green Line extension. The 46 trains will have four cars per train.

Siemens AG will deliver 22 of the trains, with the remaining 24 trains being supplied by CRRC. Reports from BTs indicate that the purchase is in anticipation of increased traffic on the Green Line, which currently runs above Sukhumvit Road. The line will be extended into Samut Prakan.

The Green Line has a length of 36.25 kilometers, with BTS operating 52 trains on the line at this time.

Keeree Kanjanapas, BTS Group chairman, states, “With these new trains, we will be able to operate the skytrain for the next 10 years.”

Full story: https://ethailand.com/business-news/bts-buys-46-trains-from-siemens-ag-and-crrc-changchun-for-11-billion-baht/2706/

-- eThailand 2016-05-25

[ezzra]

Well overdue action, So now instead 3 cars of sardines, there will be four cars of the same, this company

seems to operate with a captive clientele and the comfort of their customer's doesn't go hand in hand

with their profit bottom line.....

[SuwadeeS]

I hope they pay the bill.

[Searat7]

All BTS trains have had 4 cars for quite some time now so that won't change. It's the MRT which still operates the same 3 car trains since they began operation in 2004. They should piggyback on the BTS order with Siemens.

[skildpadden]

So will the trains now fill the whole station instead of only half of the station?

[sanukjim]

If one could find the original contract from Siemens I would bet that the actual cost before the middle man mark up from a company (Controlled and owned by the LOS government)they would find the cost will be about 70% less. So the big wigs should be pocketing about 7+ Billions..Thaksin did this kind of deal with C-130 airplanes.

[taony]

This won't due anything to alleviate crowding will it? The additional trains, according to the article, are being ordered because of the extension. Since the line is longer, they need more trains on it just to maintain the current level of service.

[wabothai]

I hope they pay the bill.

If they don't germany will put one of their planes on the chain.

[mtls2005]

This was from an article a few months ago...

As currently planned, BTSC requires seven trains of four carriages of each for the Green Line BTS Skytrain, 15 trains for the Green Line Bearing-Samut Prakan extension, and 21 trains for the |Green Line Bang Sue-Kukot extension.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/BTSC-targets-cargo-train-operation-30278481.html

The green line extension, Bearing to Samut Prakan ( Kheha Samut Prakan) is schedule to open sometime next year (2017).

Edited May 25, 2016 by mtls2005

[razer]

It would be nice if they made their stations accessible to the elderly and infirm. But they don't really care ... do they?

[Estrada]

It would be nice if they made their stations accessible to the elderly and infirm. But they don't really care ... do they?

They are installing additional lifts to cover all of their stations.

[Estrada]

So will the trains now fill the whole station instead of only half of the station?

You are confused with the MRT Blue Line which has 3 car trains for their stations which can handle 6 car trains. The BTS already upgraded to 4 car trains some time ago and their stations are also designed for 6 car trains, so that is 2/3rds of the station.

[richard_smith237]

I chose to take the the MRT last night to football: Asoke to Lad Prao...

It was an awful experience.

First I walked 6 or 700m to Asoke - arrived very hot and sweaty... Then I had to queue for 10 mins for a ticket.

Then the queues for the trains were large, I could only get on the 3rd train which was incredibly crowded.

Then I had to take a motorcycle to my destination.

The whole journey took approximately 1 hr.

Next time I will drive - it takes me an additional 30 mins, but I have the comfort of my own car.

Or if going out drinking afterwards, I'll use UBER.

It was immediately clear that the system is at Capacity... additional trains are urgently needed. Not just an additional carriage... an additional 3 on each train (6 carriage trains on the MRT and BTS).

So, this is a good move by BTS, but is it enough? and the MRT definitely needs to follow suit if borderline users such as myself are to make the decision to use the MRT and BTS and get away from using my car so much in the city centre.

Edited May 25, 2016 by richard_smith237

[Estrada]

If one could find the original contract from Siemens I would bet that the actual cost before the middle man mark up from a company (Controlled and owned by the LOS government)they would find the cost will be about 70% less. So the big wigs should be pocketing about 7+ Billions..Thaksin did this kind of deal with C-130 airplanes.

You lost the bet. Nothing to do with Thaksin. The BMA was then and is now, controlled by the Democrat Party. The Government at the time was run by the Democrat Party under Chuan Leekpai and a friend who is a Democrat, was appointed to handle the "incentives" and it was he that went to the various manufacturer's plants to negotiate. The going rate for "incentives" has been the subject of a Chulalongkorn University Study on behalf of the Democrat Party. This report states that the going rate for large projects has been 30% under all governments since 1974, not just Thaksin. In fact, from personal experience, an intermediary during the time of Mr. T, was offering one deal for seven large waste water plants at 28%.

[Estrada]

This won't due anything to alleviate crowding will it? The additional trains, according to the article, are being ordered because of the extension. Since the line is longer, they need more trains on it just to maintain the current level of service.

Seven of the extra trains are to allow a greater frequency between trains at peak hours. Additionally, there will be another two(2) depots at Bang Pu, Samutprakarn and Khu Khot. This will allow more trains to operate on the Morchit to Samrong section of the Sukhumvit Line. The Chinese trains are envisaged to run beyond Morchit to Lam Kuk Ka, whereas the Siemens trains will run to Bang Pu depot.

Overcrowding is generally caused by miscalculation by the computer system that controls the speed and frequency of trains. Having said that, it is only able to guess demand based on historical passenger arrivals at stations. It cannot immediately cope with uncalculated demand caused by events that the human operators fail to alert the computer system to. For instance, the Leicester City FC parade. It will however, send more trains and increase frequency as soon as the load becomes apparent.

[Xonax]

I always try to avoid using BTS and MRT due to serious overcrowding at all times of the day. Put more trains on the existing routes or give the contract to another operator. Passengers are getting squeezed like sardins in a can and the price is not even cheap.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Xonax

[Redline]

They mix and match EVERTHING. They are already lacking in maintenance. Standardization save money

[tx22cb]

I always try to avoid using BTS and MRT due to serious overcrowding at all times of the day. Put more trains on the existing routes or give the contract to another operator. Passengers are getting squeezed like sardins in a can and the price is not even cheap.

Points of order.

1) "serious overcrowding at all times of the day" To be fair, the off-peak periods are not crowded on either BTS & MRT.

I've used the systems in Europe, NYC, Tokyo & Singapore (inter alia), and they are just as crowded during rush hours.

2) "the price is not even cheap" Negative, the Thai price is cheap, compared to the aforementioned cities/continents.

[taony]

I always try to avoid using BTS and MRT due to serious overcrowding at all times of the day. Put more trains on the existing routes or give the contract to another operator. Passengers are getting squeezed like sardins in a can and the price is not even cheap.

Points of order.

1) "serious overcrowding at all times of the day" To be fair, the off-peak periods are not crowded on either BTS & MRT.

I've used the systems in Europe, NYC, Tokyo & Singapore (inter alia), and they are just as crowded during rush hours.

2) "the price is not even cheap" Negative, the Thai price is cheap, compared to the aforementioned cities/continents.

Sorry, but I disagree on all three of your points. The trains are overcrowded at all times of day. The other systems that you refer to are not comparable in the least to BTS. BTS is pre-kindergarten while the systems you mention are working on their PHD's. And they are constantly improving. There was an article I read about the NYC subway just a few days ago regarding new lines and other improvements to meet the demand. On Channel News Asia the other night there was report on the Singapore subway and how they were working to make the system even more efficient.

The problems with overcrowding in systems like NYC is that its physically impossible to increase service. That is not even close to the reality of BTS. BTS's problem is mismanagement. six-car trains were promised within six months of opening and never happened, because they would have had to spend money and their bribes wouldn't have been profitable if they did. Its amazing that they ever built the stations that can accommodate six car trains in the first place as it did not result in quick money, its money spent with no return to date.

BTS is overpriced for the service it provides. Its lazy in design, both routes and stations, and not operated well. It succeeds because there is nothing past or present to compare it too. Almost anything can move faster than the traffic on sukhumvit, so its not a major achievement.

[kkerry]

I chose to take the the MRT last night to football: Asoke to Lad Prao...

It was an awful experience.

First I walked 6 or 700m to Asoke - arrived very hot and sweaty... Then I had to queue for 10 mins for a ticket.

Then the queues for the trains were large, I could only get on the 3rd train which was incredibly crowded.

Then I had to take a motorcycle to my destination.

The whole journey took approximately 1 hr.

Next time I will drive - it takes me an additional 30 mins, but I have the comfort of my own car.

Or if going out drinking afterwards, I'll use UBER.

It was immediately clear that the system is at Capacity... additional trains are urgently needed. Not just an additional carriage... an additional 3 on each train (6 carriage trains on the MRT and BTS).

So, this is a good move by BTS, but is it enough? and the MRT definitely needs to follow suit if borderline users such as myself are to make the decision to use the MRT and BTS and get away from using my car so much in the city centre.

I agree the lines can be very long but if you live here then why not purchase a stored value card?

MRT ticketing

[Jonmarleesco]

'Keeree Kanjanapas, BTS Group chairman, states, “With these new trains, we will be able to operate the skytrain for the next 10 years.”' If we're lucky, they'll manage to improve their service competency in a somewhat shorter timescale; it certainly wouldn't require much effort.

[swerver]

So will the trains now fill the whole station instead of only half of the station?

No they will not.

The stations were designed for two (2) trains with three (3) cars each coupled together.

With four (4) cars you CANNOT couple trains togewther anymore of course in Thailand they can with say the first and last cars being past the platform in which case the pasengers of these two cars will have to struggle through the packed sardines into the next car to be able to get to open doors to the platform. Who says Thais are not smart??? They have an answer for every thing. If you don't think so just ask them. But be careful when asking, if they feel you make them loose face they will pull their covert gun and shoot you, even University professors shoot each other over loose of face.

Edited May 25, 2016 by swerver

[mtls2005]

The "short-straw" may become the physical/size limitations of the platform/ticketing mezzanine, the stairs/escalators between street, ticketing mezzanine and platform, ticketing gates, security. Some BTS stations are nearly saturated at peak travel times, and any sort of issue causes huge problems. (I think there have been some issues on the Silom line this week, with brief service interruptions?) Congestion lengthens queue/dwell times and it may be challenging to maintain sub-3 minute intervals necessary at peak periods.

AFAIK, they cannot allow passengers to queue on the stairs (both safety and structural issues).

I thought that the platforms were all designed for six car trains, so assumed they'd add another "C" car, so A-C1-C2-C3-A config for a five car set and then add C4 for a six-car set.

I think they'll be some balance between capacity, dwell time and frequency, and that physical limitations of the station design may ultimately modify behavior and operations?

The MRT seems to have platform capacity issues as well, especially in the side-by-side stations.

[kannot]

Already way behind whats needed, how about start with at least 5 cars per train as theyve only just upped it from 3 and that took them ages to do

[Wilsonandson]

Labour Ministry to help out 4,000 employees of BMTA who are to be made redundant

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/164619

BMTA plans to cut its staff down by about 4,000 who include 3,000 bus conductors and 1,000 other workers through its voluntary early retirement programme.

Poor people get to work on the bus. Middle class go on the BTS or MRT. One way reform. Help the rich get richer and make the poor people's life more miserable. Bye bye red buses, hello trains. Bangkok city of gold. Or the begging bowl of Thailand for many others. 7 million inhabitants of which 95% are poor. Am I being over negative? Yes, time for my meds. Take your meds people. We're all happy.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Wilsonandson

[rubl]

So will the trains now fill the whole station instead of only half of the station?

No they will not.

The stations were designed for two (2) trains with three (3) cars each coupled together.

With four (4) cars you CANNOT couple trains togewther anymore of course in Thailand they can with say the first and last cars being past the platform in which case the pasengers of these two cars will have to struggle through the packed sardines into the next car to be able to get to open doors to the platform. Who says Thais are not smart??? They have an answer for every thing. If you don't think so just ask them. But be careful when asking, if they feel you make them loose face they will pull their covert gun and shoot you, even University professors shoot each other over loose of face.

I vaguely, but only vague remember the platform could take 6-carriage trains.

Of course, with rush hour there's a problem getting people quickly enough out of trains off the platforms v.v. That will not improve with longer trains. Also the ticket machine point is regularly a crowded problem, as well as the 'money change' points and the 'ticket gates'.

Not really much different from other large cities. Pity everyone like (or needs) to travel at around the same time and that is already a period of at least two hours mornings, evenings. Further spreading would help, but with opening hours of offices, shops, schools less feasable.

[rubl]

Labour Ministry to help out 4,000 employees of BMTA who are to be made redundant

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/164619

BMTA plans to cut its staff down by about 4,000 who include 3,000 bus conductors and 1,000 other workers through its voluntary early retirement programme.

Poor people get to work on the bus. Middle class go on the BTS or MRT. One way reform. Help the rich get richer and make the poor people's life more miserable. Bye bye red buses, hello trains. Bangkok city of gold. Or the begging bowl of Thailand for many others. 7 million inhabitants of which 95% are poor. Am I being over negative? Yes, time for my meds. Take your meds people. We're all happy.

Well, the conductors might be re-schooled to be 'security guards', although that's handled by a different company, not by the BMRT. As for the other workers, bus drivers would make interesting BTS train driver I imagine.

As to the logic of the redundancies, I have no data on how many people daily use the BTS/MRT, could be 1,000,000 by now. Unless Bangkok has grown too much that should be noticeble on bus lines. So bus lines need to be reassessed, some moved, some lesser frequency.