Westerners waiing to Thais.Why would you?

[Lannig]

"A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

No difference to a westerner offering a wai..that also looks pretentious..Yes?

Maybe if both were in Farangland, but we're discussing things happening in Thailand here, right?

Wrote this already (and so did another member): when in Rome...

Yes of course we are discussing Thailand here

You say that in Thailand A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

You're confused, no I did not say that, someone else did and I'm not even sure I can completely agree with this. Awkward and unnatural, yes. Pretentious? not sure.

I'm saying that IMO in Thailand "A westerner offering a wai just looks just as pretentious" right?

And I don't think so because precisely that takes place in Thailand where it's the social rule.

[pgrahmm]

I only wai bar girls. ;-)

Wai'er tapping ?

[Fairynuff]

Learn how to do it - respect......

We are in Their culture & Their world.....

Not yours....Learn to respect & accept centuries old traditions and cultural nuances.....

Or leave.....

I wai when, where and to who it's appropriate. I like it when people wai to me and have no problem waiing back.

What I would never do is tell someone who doesn't want to wai to leave Thailand. I assume you are one of those long stay "guests" in this country

[GarryP]

As several have mentioned, after being here a while you learn when, where and to whom you should wai.

Do some foreigners look silly with deep very subservient wais to the noodle vendor? Of course they do. But so what? If they stay for any length of time they would probably learn that it is not appropriate and stop doing it.

[Aj Mick]

But NOT waiing a Thai of higher status is actually a bit of an insult towards them

How exactly do you ascertain the status of someone you may never have met before deciding whether to wai them or not

It sounds as if you assume everyone is of higher status than yourself.

By wealth? possibly ill gotten wealth.

By position in the company hierarchy? to someone who may have got where they are not by ability, but by nepotism.

By age? why is age such a decider of status.

Thai people just know. The rest of us just don't.

[bazza40]

IMO waiing should be left to Thais as they naturally understand the nuances and true meanings etc of the act.

Amen. I wince when farang try to wai back to a waitress or bellboy.

I've waied a few times over many years when the person was elderly and significant in the scheme of things, but other than that a nod in response is almost always appropriate and sufficient. Waiing everything that moves is just ridiculous and looks like the person doing it is mocking the meaning of it.

It's a bit like smiles. Thai smiles have a multitude of meanings that don't correspond to the same simplistic response that most foreigners ascribe to it. It's the Land of Smiles because of their varied meaning, not because everyone is thrilled to see Khun Farang.

1. Yim yaw

This smile can be used in two ways: Firstly, when teasing someone, and secondly when wanting to express the words “I told you so”, without actually having to be so harsh.

2. Yim cheun chom

This smile is a controlled yet beautiful smile that expresses the words, “I admire you”, or, I’m proud of you”.

3. Yim mai awk

This is the smile used when concealing difficult emotion. It’s the “I’m trying my best to smile but I’m struggling” smile. This might be used when someone is brokenhearted or physically hurt.

4. Yim mee lessanai

This is a devious smile that masks bad intent. If you really upset your Thai partner, you should probably worry if you get this smile in return.

5. Yim chuead chuean

Similar to Yim mer lessanai, but more the “Mwhahaha” bad guy smile, this would be used by a person who has gotten the upper hand over someone.

6. Yim dor dhaan

This smile indicates that you disagree, but will entertain the idea or go along with the action regardless. It’s the “You can go ahead, but you know I disagree and that your idea isn’t a good one” smile.

7. Yim sao

This is the standard smile of sadness, one that indicates someone really isn’t happy.

8. Yim haeng

This is the dry smile, also known as the “I know I owe you the money but I don’t have it” smile.

9. Yim suu suu!

This is the smile of encouragement, the “You/I can do it” smile.

10. Yim yoh-yae

This smile is the Thai equivalent to suggesting that it’s not worth getting upset over something that seems pretty bad, but has happened and can’t be changed.In essence, it’s the “no point in crying over spilt milk” smile.

11. Yim thang nam daa

This smile must be interpreted in context, as it can mean two different things. On one hand it can mean “I’m so happy I’m crying inside”, and on the other, given different circumstances, “I’m so sad inside, but I’m still smiling”.

12. Fuoon Yim

This is the “mai jing jai” (literally translated as ‘not real heart’) smile. It’s a stiff and somewhat fake smile. For example, “I should laugh at the joke, but it’s not funny, so I’ll do this smile instead and help you move on”.

13. Yim taak thaai

This is the smile of convenience, a polite smile that enables you to acknowledge someone you don’t know that well, or someone you aren’t going to get into a long conversation with. It’s pretty much the most common smile you’ll get when out and about in Thailand.

Very educational.

[Aj Mick]

Why does it cause such distress to seasoned expats when tourists wai service staff? Seems like the worst sort of patronising snobbery to me.

Not patronising at all. Seasoned expats know how much distress an inappropriate wai causes to service staff.

[Aj Mick]

Generally you dont wai if the person is younger or of less social standing. You do wai if the person is of the same age bracket or older or of higher standing in society

Would you wai prajuth?

Nope, not I.

[bazza40]

I agree the majority of Thai handshakes are quite limp. However,I think Thais shake hands as a courtesy and move out of their comfort zone to do it, so they deserve credit for that.

[northernjohn]

It depends on the person.

But yes, to some person i do a wai. Sometimes I only smile and do a nod. It all depends to whom.

To friends parents or some important persons I do a wai. To a security guard or a waitress i not, because so far I understand this is not appropriate.

The thais I know, appreciate if you do a wai, even when you do it at the wrong position. Thais also understand that you are farang.

I can certainly appreciate your position of a wai to the family. For that matter any one who wai's a family.

What I for the life of me can not understand is why they do not learn the correct Wai for a family.

Speaking only for myself I am a bit hesitant to start doing it as I feel they have known me so long they are going to wonder if I am all right. I have never wai my wife but I at all times address her with a Kuhn first.

I can see from the tone of the wai posters where I am in the wrong. I always meet and say goodbye as I would my own family. I feel it is more endearing to them to be treated as I treat my brother sister or any other relative. Now I am starting to get the impression that it makes no difference how I look at them in relationship to closeness. Treat them the same as I would a stranger is the best way.

Any advice greatly appreciated. Or opinions. Be they negative or positive.

[Fookhaht]

I agree the majority of Thai handshakes are quite limp. However,I think Thais shake hands as a courtesy and move out of their comfort zone to do it, so they deserve credit for that.

Multiply that a thousand-fold if a Thai (non spouse/partner) hugs you. In 10+ years, the only hug I've gotten from a Thai was from a student who'd just returned from three months in the USA, and wanted to show how they had acquired the culture. I was in shock for days.

If you're from a hugging culture (American, Italian, Russian, etc.) the first thing you learn here is not to hug a Thai--especially in public. Thais don't show negative emotion that often, but you'll be certain to produce a red face and speechlessness if you try it.

[Trujillo]

Not yours....Learn to respect & accept centuries old traditions and cultural nuances.....

Or leave.....

Oh boy, another blanket ad hominem "argument."

If you have one, make a point, not some flaccid, three-year-old's idea of "debate."

"If you don't like the way I play ball, then you can just go home!"

The OP clearly doesn't understand when to wai. As has been said before, don't wai wait-staff or the guy you just bought a T-shirt from. Watch who other Thais wai to get your signal. It's not a mysterious concept.

[Trujillo]

I have never wai my wife but I at all times address her with a Kuhn first.

That would be pretty weird, unless you have some cutesy thing going on by calling her Mrs. NorthernJohn.

I've never heard married Thais or farang/Thai combos use the honorific to each other before.

[northernjohn]

I wai water in a pool or the ocean. If you don't wai nam, you should not go in.

Well that sounds easy enough to do. I just had a talk with my wife and am going to try to get in the habit of wai the family. Pool is easy. Going to be a while before I see the ocean and for damn sure not swimming in the Ping.

[northernjohn]

I have never wai my wife but I at all times address her with a Kuhn first.

That would be pretty weird, unless you have some cutesy thing going on by calling her Mrs. NorthernJohn.

I've never heard married Thais or farang/Thai combos use the honorific to each other before.

Have no idea why I started it and have never heard others do it. Just seems natural to me and I have had several Thais compliment me on it.

If I stop now she might get suspicious I have known her for 9 years now. Before I made the move to retire here I always spent the time with her when I was visiting.

[ujayujay]

As I shake Hands in the west I Wai in LOS.....very simple.

[FolkGuitar]

The handshake on the other hand, is a greeting between two equals, that should guarantee that for the duration of the exchange initiated by the handshake, both will respect each other as equals.

There is nothing equal about handshakes. If I may, perhaps an understanding of Kinesics is in order. It's the scientific study of body motion communication such as facial expressions and gestures, nonverbal behavior related to movement of any part of the body or the body as a whole. Pop culture calls this 'body language,' but in fact, it makes up 70%-80% of total communication. Volumes have been written on JUST handshakes and how they are perceived, delivered, and received.

[orang37]

Sometimes I wai, sometimes I don't; the when/why of the wai, and, to what extent I incline my head, hold my hands higher, or lower, is pretty much intuitive after many years here.

When visitors come, and ask me about wai, I tell them the usual: that it's generally inappropriate for casual encounters with service-staff, tuk-tuk-drivers, restaurant employees, and, generally, more appropriate for people who are older, are in a position of authority vis-a-vis them, etc.

However, I also tell them that if they feel a sense of respect, admiration, personal appreciation, in any social context, to trust that feeling and, if it feels natural to wai, go ahead.

I've never seen a Thai take offense from a farang doing wai to someone in a context where a Thai would not; I have seen Thais be amused (and, as usual, careful to try and hide that reaction). I suppose somewhere in these many universes is a time and place where some farang was beaten to a pulp for doing a wai, but, I don't need to know about it.

cheers, ~o:37;

Edited May 26, 2016 by orang37

[northernjohn]

I do cringe if I see it done wrong but it becomes natural with time and understanding. just as you may learn the languge with time, hopefully you learn the customs.

I admit I do not Wai but I do nod my head and say thank you in Thai.

It is my understanding that there is three different positions for the hands when Waiing. with all the waiing that is going on here could some one give the reason for each one.

Like do you wai first or do they wai first.

Actually it would be nice to have an article about it. I think I will check my arch enemy Google. I say arch enemy because I can generally find articles that refute the other one on the same subject.

I offer the following from http://www.kochangvr.com/thailandssociety/familystructures.htm

Although in Thai business- and government circles meanwhile shacking hands has become accepted the traditional reception in Thailand still is the Wai. The execution of the "right” Wai is for us Farangs not easy to understand as it depends on the relation of the people to each other. The Wai must be understood as a highly important sign of reciprocal demonstration of respect. In normal cases the palms with outstretched fingers in breast height are held against each other the thumbs pointing to the body. Furthermore you slightly bow. The younger one respectively the one who has the lower social status always greats first, the senior or more important one answers with a lower Wai: by this the palms are held little lower in front of the breast as the younger or less important one does. The heights of the palms is the most crucial criteria of respect to be demonstrated to the opponent. The higher the more respect is paid. Thus no Thai will use a Wai for reception or leave-taking with children, servants or beggars. Only for members of the royal family, monks or as an obeisance to Buddha the finger tips are held over the eyebrows. Are important people welcomed the finger tips can be held in between the eyebrows, the thumbs at this can touch the tip of the nose.

As a role the following can be said:

With less important: Thumbs about on breast height.

With ones of equal rank: Thumbs about on chin level.

With important and older people: Thumbs on level of the upper lip.

With very important people: Thumbs on level of the nose tip.

With monks (and members of the royal family which you will even throughout a longer stay in Thailand only meet very rarely…): Thumbs on level of the eyebrows.

For the bows as a consequence thereof the same applies: the deeper the higher is the respect of the opponent.

Very much appreciated. I have a lot of upbringing to overcome.

I was upper middle class. How ever through a job as a caddy at a prestigious private golf course I met all of the upper class people and found them to be very friendly people just like the people my family associated with. As a result in latter life I dealt with a lot of people in positions of power and treated them differently than most people did. I got along very well with them. Also I must admit I knew what I was talking about and they knew I was not making things up.

Now I am in Thailand and just an old retired man trying to fit in as much as I can.

[FolkGuitar]

There is NO sincerity in Japanese bowing, only a trained in custom.

I couldn't do it when I lived there, and felt that if I did, I may cop a knife in the back of the neck....... and I didn't lose the war!!

As for foreigners wai'ing to Thais, and other Asians, I often think it looks a little foolish, particularly when offered to a noodle vendor.

Sincerity? No, very little sincerity. But respect? Yes, BUT.... only in the same way that an office worker 'respects' the boss, or you respect the job being done by a skilled craftsman. Now and then there is a bit of 'real' respect, in its most accurate definition, shown to an elderly person, a monk, or someone generally well respected. But usually, in both Thailand and Japan, it is, as you say, only a trained custom. As common as 'hello.' We don't expect a detailed medical answer to our query 'How are you?' We only expect a 'Fine, thanks, And you?' It's custom.

The Japanese have NO expectations that westerners will have any idea 'how to bow correctly.' But they do appreciate the fact that they try.

I have a feeling that the Thais feel the same way. When we farang speak Thai and use the wrong tones, the Thais don't laugh at us. They don't expect us to know the correct tones and give us a bit more leeway in our speech. They most certainly DO appreciate the fact that we try to speak to them in their own language.

[mike324]

IMO waiing should be left to Thais as they naturally understand the nuances and true meanings etc of the act.

Amen. I wince when farang try to wai back to a waitress or bellboy.

Have you ever seen a Thai wai to a watiress that greet them out the door? It actually happens more often than you think, but I've only seen male wai back, never seen a female thai wai back to a waitress.

[off road pat]

Nothing wrong with it, just a different form of greeting. You can use one hand or just nod if your hands are full. Imagine they would do that nose thing as the Kiwis or kiss you like the communists

I am European and with some of my friends (girls and boys) we kiss when we meet, It's a Latin thing, French, Italian, Spanish...

And when meeting Thais in Thailand or abroad I always wai. It's the appropriate and polite greeting with Thais.

Best regards.

Edited May 26, 2016 by off road pat

[WinnieTheKhwai]

IMO waiing should be left to Thais as they naturally understand the nuances and true meanings etc of the act.

Amen. I wince when farang try to wai back to a waitress or bellboy.

Have you ever seen a Thai wai to a watiress that greet them out the door? It actually happens more often than you think, but I've only seen male wai back, never seen a female thai wai back to a waitress.

Especially if you know them.

Like when they're a waitress at a club restaurant that you frequent a lot, and you can envision a future scenario that involves getting into her panties.

It's like waving a carrot.. "hey, one day you could be with me and lots of people would wai you.."

Edited May 26, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Skeptic7]

I don't wai. Never have. I may do a head bow or nod as a previous poster mentioned, but not a wai.

[connda]

Because I know how, when, and when not.

[mikiea]

good god all that is problematic with this country and you talk this petty sift ? yike's must be strange to be you .

Edited May 26, 2016 by mikiea

[ozyjon]

It is the polite thing to do.

[MESmith]

Never wai. Just a smile & a nod of the head.

[pgrahmm]

OK.....

I'm partially responsible for this thread as I'm the one that suggested the couple wai the songtou driver if they happened upon him again...They had made a mistake by not clearing a price first & paying 20b & getting into it with the driver who actually walked after/pursued them into a shopping mall to try and get payment.....

They didn't have the 150b to pay the driver...

The guy was afraid of retribution if his gf or they happened to run into this husband/wife driving team again .....

My advice was if they did was to offer the money they owed sincerely & with a wai to hopefully show respect & clear the waters/clean the slate....They might never run into him/them again but the advice was solid IMO.....

Wai's as they are being addressed here are mainly salutes.....They are a small frozen respectful moment of friendly recognition.....

I see them being used at introductions, among family when they first see each other over a period of time, when esteemed guests come to the house or event....Showing respect at a temple, monk, deity.....Saying a thank you - and contrition to name a few.....

I have pulled up to an athletic field & had 30+ people stop, turn & wai me - I was taken by surprise but returned the greeting - and respect....The teams wai each other after competing.....

I have also witnessed a fight not being started when the person in the wrong wai'd the other person in contrition and basically disarming him.....

I wai as the occasion warrants raising the hands to try and convey the proper level of respect for the society in which I live.....I've never seen it not appreciated..... I don't believe it puts me over them or them over me - whichever way it goes....None of us is really above any other.....

And truthfully - a wai is not necessary all that often....

But it is intrinsic in the Thai society & I don't mind it.....Actually prefer it to gladhanding......

I'm from the US with Scotch/French/Italian/German family influences so we had the family hand shakes, hugs, kiss/pecking thing going on growing up....

It doesn't bother me when tourists try awkward wais at awkward times....At least they are trying to connect and show a level of respect in a foreign land where they really are not equipped to converse/communicate...I give them credit for trying....They'll learn or head back home before they do - but in the meantime they're being polite....

Better than those that plow right on through bouyed in their own self indulgent importance.....

Edited May 26, 2016 by pgrahmm

[Bantex]

If you don't know when and who to wai, either wai everyone or no one. Your never gonna be right. Or you could just watch the Thais and learn.