The term "oriental" -- insulting and outdated?

[soalbundy]

Back to the topic, even when I was a little kid in the U.S. in an area with probably less than ONE percent Asian population (I was friends with all of them in my school), before Thai restaurants, before people knew what PHO was much less how to pronounce it, and before Americans seriously considering eating raw fish ... only CLUELESS usually older people said Orientals!

This was before people even said Asians.

The more aware referred to people more specifically, such as Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

how do you tell a chink from a jap ?

What a lot of BS,we have no other problems in the world? Ask a Syrian in Allepo if it's important. Why am i not insulted if i am called a Brit, a Farang, a westerner, a Caucasian, who cares.

Edited May 28, 2016 by soalbundy

[arunsakda]

400 words of uttertosh, pish, and unmitigated rubbish.

Go ask an Asian person if they like being called Oriental. This isn't 1950.

[gandalf12]

What a crock of s**t. Oriental by definition means "from the East" there is no insulting overtones to it. Occidental means "from the West". The USA government should have more things to do then be bloody idiots which they obviously are. Thank goodness I don't live in the USA. Negro is also a word I think you will find in the non Obama dictionary.

And that's what's wrong with the term. It presumes that where one group is from is the center of the map, and other areas are described with reference to that. It's not the East to the people that live there.

And there is nothing wrong with a word that defines the area of the world you come from. By your logic calling someone from the USA American is also wrong. It actually presumes nothing other than to state the characteristics are mostly from a specific area of the world. This is all political correctness rubbish. We are al from certain areas of the world and if you think there is something wrong in categorizing that boy you have real problems.

I assume you are going to say no one can be racist i.e. specifying a race of people that an individual fits into. If so you need to leave the planet for somewhere else.

Name one country that is not racist if you can.

[micmichd]

Gotta ask an "oriental person" if they feel insulted by the term. Take a poll, find a percentage, make a decision.

But, it only affects the government's use of terminology, regular citizens can still order a "oriental chicken salad" at California Pizza Kitchen, at least for now. Once the terminology ban sneaks it's way into mainstream, why, the "oriental" Asians may discover ammunition for litigation, obviously desired by the federal government.

Maybe one can replace it with "The People and Things and Attributes Formerly Known as Oriental", or TPATAAFKAO. ROTFLMAO....

PS: I am always thrilled to see the government has it's priorities straight and sorted. Good job as always.

[nemrut]

Oriental is a term leftover from the colonial era and often used in a derisive manner to objectify Asians as exotic, alien and uncouth. It is still used today to describe rugs, pottery and such.

Many westerners, usually older ones, still use this antiquated term to describe all Asians much like Thais use farang to describe all white westerners.

The difference being that the term farang is often not intended to offend or demean(although it can be used that way) whereas the use of the term Oriental to describe Asian people often is.

[MediaWatcher]

What a crock of s**t. Oriental by definition means "from the East" there is no insulting overtones to it. Occidental means "from the West". The USA government should have more things to do then be bloody idiots which they obviously are. Thank goodness I don't live in the USA. Negro is also a word I think you will find in the non Obama dictionary.

And that's what's wrong with the term. It presumes that where one group is from is the center of the map, and other areas are described with reference to that. It's not the East to the people that live there.

Rubbish, it is defined by the "imaginary" line that divides Europe from Asia.

Pretty sure it was East of Rome, hence the thought that Rome was the centre of the world.

Pretty sure Soibiker is referring to the fact that Rome isn't actually the centre of the world. Is China still the East for Americans? Or is it the West?

In Roman days there was no East/West, as for Americans, please, think think think, East/West culture, hence America, Australia New Zealand etc are, generally, "western" in culture which has migrated around the globe, but the fact still remains, the original East/West is to do with the divide between Europe and Asia

A very quick search, on Eastern cuture, turns this up, I do hope it HELPs you understand the meaning of East/West.

The term Eastern world refers very broadly to the various cultures or social structures and philosophical systems of Asia or geographically the countries and cultures east of Europe, north of Oceania.

Edited May 28, 2016 by MediaWatcher

[Junkyarddog]

All the problems we have in the USA and this is what the u s government decided to spend its time on.

OK have it your way. Can't use the word Negro then I'm going back to nigger.I don't ever recall using the word oriental myself. But I see nothing wrong with referring to people from the orient as oriental.

[1FinickyOne]

Ok - so my Satsuma Vase is now Asian American, not Oriental pottery.. and my black earthenware Indian pot should now be called African American...

I hope I don't slip when talking about them and occidentally [ speaking as a Westerner ] use the wrong terminology...

This is getting a bit silly... it seems as soon as a word comes into common acceptable usage, they ban it - i guess because it effectively classifies a group.

[Sealbash]

I suppose Americans would struggle with a proper understanding of the Orient, since the Far East is to their West.

I assume Orient is still a kosher term for a football club, though?

SC

Is it not also to the east? Far East?

[Jingthing]

All the problems we have in the USA and this is what the u s government decided to spend its time on.

OK have it your way. Can't use the word Negro then I'm going back to nigger.I don't ever recall using the word oriental myself. But I see nothing wrong with referring to people from the orient as oriental.

You actually have a point. So much stuff to do that never gets done due to partisan bickering.

[DrDave]

I wonder what term Mr Obama would have people use for black people who are not Americans?

This reminds me... a few years back, I was watching a US newscast on TV about blacks rioting in France. The newscaster was reading the copy, which in typical American PC style, referred to the French rioters as "African-Americans". As soon as the words left her mouth, you could see the look on her face, that clearly said "who the **** wrote this?"

[Fairynuff]

Obama is evil and as has been implementing Orwellian language play. The US government has no right to manipulate people's personal vernacular.

"Oriental" is used more than "Occidental" just as "Westerner" is used more than "Easterner".

I will continue to use whatever word I choose and screw those who judge me as having bad intentions in my attempts to communicate as concisely as possible.

Your first 3 words tell us exactly who and what you are

[Fairynuff]

Oh JT why did you have to start this!! Perhaps you just wanted to reassure us that bigotry is alive and well in this forum.

In the UK if you talk about Asians most people think you mean Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi etc. Even now many people still talk about Orientals, even S.E. Asian, East Asians themselves.

The guy who talked about "<deleted>" and said he "thinks" it's becoming outdated has clearly just woken from a 40 year slumber. You might still hear that word in some circles, but certainly not in any circle a normal person would be a part of

[The manic]

PC Stasi nonsense. Liberal wanchors with too much time - too much salary and no real life experience. The yanks would be better off under the bits than the present crooks and charlatans.

[Cory1848]

Edited part: Not sure how this happened. the above post is what I intended and posted here was part of my original post.

Well, I am pleased you were able to guess I was a man. I am even more pleased you got around to my point. Yes, my old professor was a bit over the top—just as I am suggesting this edict is.

It is apparent you also missed the fact it was a long time ago and terms such as chairperson, fire fighter, police officer were not commonplace. Consequently, when I used the huperson or personager terminology, I was being facetious; as the dean apparently saw—by the way, the dean was a woman.

I have no complaints using gender-neutral terms where applicable and I agree using “he” or “she” should be perfectly reasonable. However, to have men use “he” and women use “she” in their own communication seems to settle the unknown gender dispute for any offended parties, does it not?

As a university professor, I used the gender pronoun for the person to whom I was communicating in all gender unknown situations. Awkwardly, when lecturing to a coed class, I would say he/she or she/he. What a load of crap to have to do, lest I offend someone—of course, that is my opinion, but mine is the only opinion I can have, isn’t it?

Let words evolve? Sure, glad to, but to have them mandated; not so glad. Derogatory terms such as honky, greaser, wop, nigger, chink, etc., ad infinitum, should not be used—even though they still are. However, words such as oriental or occidental, Asian or European, are simply words which define geographic area more so than racial origin. If one takes offense at those words, I would hope they were offended by being referred to in a geographic sense rather than be insulted by the use of a recognized word for their racial area of origin.

Certainly, if you are looking for a specific region, country, culture, or religion of origin; other hyphenated terms are available such as: African-Hispanic-Caribbean-Jewish- American. That is if full demographic specifics is what you are seeking. However, why not use the common racial terms Negroid, Mongoloid, or Caucasoid, if you are trying to establish race?

If people are offended by those recognized terms, then mandate they be switched around; you know, Negroid for white people, Caucasoid for yellow people, and Mongoloid for black people. While we’re at it, we could just mandate using “he” as the feminine pronoun . . .

Thanks -- I’m just approaching this from the point of view of a book editor, which is what I do for a living; most writers I work with are university professors writing works of scholarship, and the issue of gendered language (and potentially offensive language in general) comes up frequently. As you point out, most often it’s a matter of context: who is the writer, and who is the intended reader. Common sense and readability are usually the goals.

The US government edict in question here merely seeks to stop the usage of the word “Oriental” (in government documents) when used as a noun to identify people from Asia. That’s all. The word has already fallen into disuse in that context, and the government is just "catching up" perhaps. Frankly, I don’t know if the word (used in that context) is offensive or not; it’s up to Asians to determine that, and the vast majority I’m sure aren’t even aware of the issue. However, the word -- again, used as a noun to represent people -- does conjure certain attitudes that the West has historically held toward Asia that were probably racist then and that no longer much apply today -- in the same way that the word “Negro” conjures pre-civil-rights-era race relations in the United States. Read Edward Said’s influential 1978 work “Orientalism,” which examines the West’s patronizing attitudes toward the East through history. The isolated word may seem harmless, but as an indicator of the West’s often brutal imposition of colonialism on Asians from the Levant to the Philippines, it certainly was not.

I hope your long-ago dean at least saw the humor in your facetious essay!

[duanebigsby]

I'm not sure the measure makes sense at all - banning the use of some words is banning expression about what the words mean. Sounds like big brother's newspeak if you ask me.

Well, it's about banning them from government documents. That seems entirely reasonable to me, especially with the term "Negro" also included in the ruling. They're not restricting what people say at the water cooler. I said, cooler, not coolie.

My point was that if you are going to use racial descriptions then they should be precise enough to reflect people's perceptions. "Asian Americans" includes Orientals, Indians and Arabs. You can't call a spade a shovel - it's specifically a square-nosed shovel

SC

I think you're quite confused. You do realize such categorizations are entirely different in different countries, right? Your classifications don't compute in USA culture. It's a sovereign nation.

Anyway, banning use of Oriental and Negro is ENTIRELY a great idea in U.S. government documents. If there was anything controversial about that, do you think it would have ever gotten such universal bipartisan support? Almost nothing does! It's about as controversial in the U.S. context as saying you shouldn't torture puppies.

Anyway, back to the topic. I've explained how I see oriental in the U.S. context.

How is the word doing in Australia, Canada, the U.K., etc.?

The word "oriental" has never been deemed offensive in British or Canadian English, just descriptive. It has more negative connotations in US English.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=oriental

[apetryxx]

So I suppose that one of the finest hotels in Asia, "The Oriental,"

Is now off limits to U S diplomats. Obama's state department is staffed by a cabal of PC morons.

[apetryxx]

So I suppose that one of the finest hotels in Asia, "The Oriental,"

Is now off limits to U S diplomats. Obama's state department is staffed by a cabal of PC morons.

[ljd1308]

In Roman days there was no East/West, as for Americans, please, think think think, East/West culture, hence America, Australia New Zealand etc are, generally, "western" in culture which has migrated around the globe, but the fact still remains, the original East/West is to do with the divide between Europe and Asia

A very quick search, on Eastern cuture, turns this up, I do hope it HELPs you understand the meaning of East/West.

The term Eastern world refers very broadly to the various cultures or social structures and philosophical systems of Asia or geographically the countries and cultures east of Europe, north of Oceania.

You are basically making the exact same argument that I am, only you are saying the line is the arbitrary divide between Europe and Asia(Turkey?) rather than Rome....I am happy to submit to your superior knowledge on that. But if it just based on a continental divide, why can we not just use those names.....like for example, Asia or Asian? Rather than something some people may find offensive.

I have no actual opinion on whether it is offensive or not, but I won't use the term incase someone else finds it offensive....I just find that common decency.

[Jingthing]

So I suppose that one of the finest hotels in Asia, "The Oriental,"

Is now off limits to U S diplomats. Obama's state department is staffed by a cabal of PC morons.

It is not. Not related to the ruling. The law is basically about an editorial directive for two words that can't be used now in U.S. government documents. Nothing about booking hotels.

[tutsiwarrior]

Back to the topic, even when I was a little kid in the U.S. in an area with probably less than ONE percent Asian population (I was friends with all of them in my school), before Thai restaurants, before people knew what PHO was much less how to pronounce it, and before Americans seriously considering eating raw fish ... only CLUELESS usually older people said Orientals!

This was before people even said Asians.

The more aware referred to people more specifically, such as Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

yeah, I hear that...back in the early 70s 'oriental' was considered racist...an 'oriental' was like charlie chan or the shuffling japanese gardener in 'Chinatown'...

PC has become a fact of life but if it's just terminology then it's harmless...I remember when PC was rampant and crazy in the early 80s in California when militant feminists had taken over the US progressive movement and to be an heterosexual was considered to be 'not correct' (in Berkeley, CA anyway...shades of the Cultural Revolution)...their idiocy helped Reagan and his supporters to become strong and to make US progressives and their efforts laughable...

and, more significantly to have feminism wane as a force for progressive change...there aren't many women that call themselves feminists these days..

Edited May 28, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[Jingthing]

I don't think saying Oriental has been considered seriously racist. Just embarrassingly DATED.

[Docno]

Apparently the orientals aren't too bothered by the term:

[Jingthing]

Package likely designed by a non-native English speaker.

Anyway, in the U.S. anyway, it's definitely VERY dated.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Jingthing

[tutsiwarrior]

I don't think saying Oriental has been considered seriously racist. Just embarrassingly DATED.

dunno...when you lived in the SF Bay area with the big east asian population back in those days folks may want to differ...

'my! but this oriental food is marvelous!'...'what kinda food?'

[Jingthing]

I don't think saying Oriental has been considered seriously racist. Just embarrassingly DATED.

dunno...when you lived in the SF Bay area with the big east asian population back in those days folks may want to differ...

'my! but this oriental food is marvelous!'...'what kinda food?'

I lived there too and using the word just showed you were a clueless moron with zero awareness of your surroundings.

It has NEVER been anything even close to the N word in severity.

[Happy Grumpy]

Apparently the orientals aren't too bothered by the term:

DSC09085.JPG

Cuttlefish?

Now there's a species that should be banned.

Especially in packet form.

Bought some green peas at the 7 a few days ago, I looked down at the pack. 'cuttlefish flavor'.

These orientals are funny ol' folk.

Still, let's keep the ones that cuddle up to us for a monthly salary, eh.

[tutsiwarrior]

I don't think saying Oriental has been considered seriously racist. Just embarrassingly DATED.

dunno...when you lived in the SF Bay area with the big east asian population back in those days folks may want to differ...

'my! but this oriental food is marvelous!'...'what kinda food?'

I lived there too and using the word just showed you were a clueless moron with zero awareness of your surroundings.

It has NEVER been anything even close to the N word in severity.

poorenglish.jpg

the n - word is something that you spit at people and is a challenge to their race, manhood and everything that they represent...unless of course if you're a white boy and come from a bad - arsed place like Pasadena and grow up with the street patois...the local greeting was: 'say, blood...' and then n- word this and n - word that...little kids just wantin' to mimic the stuff we heard on the playground...

and then later when we got older with drugs and what not: 'you messin' wid me, n - word??? I'll kill you, n - word...' and etc...we became like the Vince Vaughn character in the film 'Be Cool' that hilariously parodied white boy wannabe bad - <deleted>...

no...'oriental' is racist in the same way that the use of 'colored' or 'negro' is with regard to black folks... not overt like the n - word but displays the same ignorance that underlies all racism...

Edited May 28, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[tutsiwarrior]

btw...in Pasadena two of my pals from childhood were jewish...one morning in the schoolyard before 5th grade one came up in a threatening manner and spat: 'hey, jew!' to the other...I was confused cause I thought that you weren't supposed to do that and I knew them to be pals anyway...the faux aggressive guy was just trying to do an n - word simile number on the other and there was no malice involved...one guy married my sister and is eternal and the faux aggressive guy died about 20 years ago of drug abuse...he was still a pal and I lamented his death...they had long forgotten about that time but in my mind it was still vivid...

just goes to show...ye never can tell with faux ethnic slurs...and it's not just the deliberate ones that are recognizible that ye worry about...

Edited May 28, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[tutsiwarrior]

back in the early 80s I came home from classes and set about preparing the meal for me and my partner...I was with my house mate who was a working class girl from Seattle and as she was chopping onions she said: 'there was a negro at the door this morning' which is not surprising as we lived in Richmond in the EastBay which is a largely black community...

and I looked up and said:'a 'negro'?' and then she looked up and said: 'yep...'...

yeah, OK so she's a racist which was in character...I had some issues with her about her general unpleasantness which was complicated because her husband was also a jewish pal of mine from Pasadena...

nothin' was ever resolved and we still dislike each other after all these years and she's still married to my friend...

sheesh...