Very unusual conditions in my contract. Help needed

[Deixis]

Hello!

I was at a loss, considering what to do, until I discovered this forum. Your input appreciated guys.

So, I was offered a job as an ESL teacher at an international school in Bangkok. Not a first tier one but I did my research and they are legitimate and decent. The pay is good. Very good. Light years better than any government /language school and they will pay for my visas, work permits, TOEIC (I am a non NES). They don t offer anything else in terms of housing/relocation/tickets allowance but it' s a very good "cash in hand" situation and given the fact that I am an ESL and not a content teacher, I am very happy with this part of deal.

And just to prevent any comments about my non NES status, I have a degree in Linguistics from a British uni, of course a CELTA and Modules 1 and 3 of the DELTA. So, I am qualified and the school assured me (I believe them) that they are a registered school and that as long as I provide them with all the documents, there will be no problem at all issuing teacher's license, work permit and all. So far, so good. However..... they sent me the contract a couple of days ago and I noticed some very unusual conditions.

For one, they want three months notice in case I want to terminate my contract and failure to do so will result in the school withholding 2 salaries. This is kinda harsh but what raised red flags is the fact that this includes the probationary period! In other words if after a month I decide that I do not want to work for the school for one reason or the other, I have to pay them the equivalent of one salary from my pocket! They also say that if I pull a runner they will seek legal action etc. I can understand this part but the three months and 2 salaries including probation ting is weird now, isn't it?

Another thing that I found unnerving is that they want to keep all my original documents for the whole duration of my contract, which is two years. I understand that they'll need them for the work permit and all that, but keeping them for the whole time? They are stating that failure to submit my original certificates within a week after the beginning of the term will void the contract!

I get the feeling that they are trying to trap me and make it impossible for me to leave. Are such conditions the norm for contracts in Thailand? I was hired from another country (not through an agent), so I have nothing really to compare my contract with. I have a great teaching job where I am now, which makes me think. Should I accept their terms and sign the contract if they refuse to change the weird parts, or should I run for the hills?

Thank you guys for reading this. It would be very helpful to hear your ideas.

[simon43]

Another thing that I found unnerving is that they want to keep all my original documents for the whole duration of my contract, which is two years

Walk away. Actually, don't walk, RUN!

[Deixis]

Thank you for your forewarning Ancient Member. it didn't sound good to either. Being a firm believer in the saying better safe than sorry, I have multiple certified copies of all my documents. The original degree, the one with the seal, nobody sees, nobody touches. I've always used certified copies and I know for a fact that I can use them anywhere in the world for official purposes. The practical implications of this part do not really worry me, I can always walk away anytime, it is the principle and mentality behind it that I find very wrong.

Would you mind taking some time to explain why you think I should RUN ?

[stubuzz]

Holding on to your original documents is a kind of blackmail. I would assume this school is not a good place to work and this is the only way they can get a teacher to stay.

[mcfish]

Negotiate those points back out. Worse they can do is say no and you move on

[simon43]

Would you mind taking some time to explain why you think I should RUN ?

See post #4

[Scott]

Weird things in contracts seems to be a hallmark of Thailand. If you have certified copies, then I wouldn't worry too much about this portion of the contract. The 3 notice period is more concerning and is probably less than legal, thus they may have trouble enforcing it, should you leave. It is my understanding that the appropriate period for giving notice of termination is in line with the pay period. If you are paid monthly, then a 1 month notice is required. If you are paid weekly, then 1 weeks notice is sufficient for notification of leaving. They can put it in the contract, and they try to do enforce it, but I don't know that the Ministry of labor is going to uphold it.

When leaving, it's always a good idea to comply with the contractual requirements as much as possible to prevent any problems. This isn't always possible because of things well beyond the control of the employee. What if there is a serious illness in your family or death that requires you to leave? What if you become ill with a chronic condition? The big one that I have seen is people who sustain serious injuries in motorcycle accidents that require a long period of recovery.

Over the years, I've seen contracts with all kinds of crap conditions. Many Thai employers think this will stop people from leaving. It doesn't and it can't. If they treat you well, you will most likely stay. If they treat you badly, you will most likely leave.

In the end, they can cancel your work permit and the condition of stay associated with your visa, but you can leave and return with a different visa.

If you can find any other employees, they can probably give you a better idea of the conditions of employment.

Working in Thailand is always a gamble and in all honesty I would be more comfortable with a contract with lots of conditions than with the employers that promise all kinds of things with absolutely no intention of fulfilling any of them.

[Deixis]

Thank you MCfish and Stubuzz for your input.

What confuses me a bit is the fact that up to now, the school has been very courteous and flexible with me. They agreed to pay me as much as I think that I should be making without much hesitation and they also agreed to let me start a couple of weeks later. I am also wondering if it's worth asking them to modify the weird bits in the contract. If they do, it will be a gesture of good will and common sense but the question is, would I want to work for a school that tried to blackmail me even if they failed?

I'm just thinking aloud guys, I know that I am the one who has to make the decision but until a couple of days ago I was excited and preparing for the move, told my boss and friends that I am leaving, they are preparing a good buy party for me, I even almost booked an apartment in Bangkok.It' s a huge bummer, that's why I'm reaching out.

[Loaded]

OP

These types of clauses are a consequence of the bums who went before you who abused their contracts and showed no consideration for their schools and their students. They are protecting themselves.

[Deixis]

I hear you Loaded and I know that sorting out paperwork for teachers can be a long drawn,complicated and expensive business for the school too. But, hey, contracts are made to protect both parties. Using scare tactics and blackmail to keep their staff doesn't look good on paper and it definitely doesn't attract good teachers. it may attract desperate, naive or teachers who do not bother reading through their contracts before they sign them.

And yes Scott, the fact that there is no caveat for health and personal emergencies is another disconcerting point which I will ask them to revise.

[Aj Mick]

The standard notice period is usually one pay period. Stipulating more is probably illegitimate.

Likewise holding originals of your documents, though it is not such a big deal. You can get them reissued, albeit involving a little hassle and cost.

I worked for a year at a government institution that is held in high regard. After over two months there was still no progress on my Work Permit, which I needed to extend my Visa beyond the initial three months. I told them that if I did not have the documentation required within a week, I would be on a plane home the following week, before my Visa expired.

They got it sorted post haste, but it opened a can of worms. Turned out the Personal Department had been holding the passports of some previously employed colleagues for more than a year, none of whom had a valid Visa or Work Permit. Dealing with them was shifted to another department, and Personnel were not best pleased with me.

I saw out my contract and moved on, only to find several months later that they had made a mess of my tax. That turned out to be a time-consuming and costly matter to sort out.

Where I work now is a far more humble institution, but employment matters are handled efficiently with minimal hassle…. coincidentally by an ex-student, now employed by the department I work in.

[BruceMangosteen]

Never give any employer original documents to "hold". This includes Work Permits. Some schools ask for the Work Permits claiming it's needed and belongs to them anyhow. Just say no. Copies are suffice. The matter of wanting two or one or three months salary if you leave, tell them to "go ahead, sue me". Not a chance it will happen. It's most likely a standard contract they found online some place and doesn't represent the sentiments of the school personal. If it appears as you state, to be a legitimate school looking for qualified teachers paying well, go for it. Worse case is you leave after getting paid. I don't know how you could expect airfare anyhow.

On the housing topic, don't fall for the BS of "two months rent plus a deposit". You pay your first month and a deposit equal to anticipated utilities and perhaps a small damage amount if applicable. I'm disgusted with these Thai "landlords" ripping off foreigners via their deposits. Sometimes violence is in order.

[masuk]

I've worked in schools in Indonesia, where teachers have a done a runner, and from what I've been told, they were best having gone. However, doing a 'runner' makes it very difficult for the school, with class schedules to meet, a room full of students, and the teacher doesn't arrive.

It's not easy in say Central Java, to pluck a teacher from the tourist hordes.

On the other hand there have been schools where most of the teachers announced their departure at the end of the year. The school deserved no better.

So it's a matter of each having to protect their own interests, and a careful read of the contract is well worth while. While no school asked for my document originals, they did keep our passports for 'safekeeping'.

[simon43]

While no school asked for my document originals, they did keep our passports for 'safekeeping'.

'Keep our passports for safekeeping!!!' Totally illegal - the passport is the property of your government, not you, not the school. If they want to keep it for 'safekeeping', then they should address that request to the British Embassy in that country.

[KhonKaenKowboy]

and of course there are no remedies if they fail to perform. It's likely operating on a revolving door basis, where they get rid of people before they get them legal, and then use a bunch of contract BS to not pay you. What if they tell you to work 35 classes per week? If you have a decent job, DO NOT COME AND TAKE THIS ONE. Save your money and visit on vacation, and you will have a fighting chance of enjoying yourself.

[Martouf]

Was your contract in Thai and certified as a true and accurate translation in English ?

I'm curious as several people have said for it to be legal it has to be in both

[12DrinkMore]

Was your contract in Thai and certified as a true and accurate translation in English ?

I'm curious as several people have said for it to be legal it has to be in both

In any dispute the Thai contract holds precedent.

[Mojomor]

I was presented with many contracts in this country. I refused to sign any of them, but they still gave me the job. One or two of them got a bit heavy, saying if you don't sign the contract, you cannot have the job. My response was '' Fine, I will go somewhere else''. They always backed down, saying stupid things, like study the contract and then sign it. I never did. It was not a teaching job.

[lostinisaan]

Op, only a few points to think about. A work permit for one year is 3,100 baht, the visa fee 1,900 baht and a TOEIC isn't more than 1,500 baht.

So that's not really big money they pay for you. Many schools pay for work permit and visa.

You didn't mention that you've got any teaching experience and the weird contract with the three month "issue" raises some questions.

Do they have more foreigners employed, or will you be the only one? I'm only asking because a few things do not make sense to me.

If the pay is as good as you wrote, why wouldn't they look for an experienced NES teacher, nothing against your qualifications, please don't misunderstand me.

Is it possible that they've got a system where you all in a sudden find yourself in a situation working for three different schools in three different areas of Bangkok?

There's nothing wrong from your side, but something just smells very fishy here regarding the school.

If I were you, I'd try to find out as much as you can before you sign something you might regret after a short period of time.

Yes, it's true that too many foreigners have made the runner. But there might be a very serious reason why people have left some places overnight.

If they want you, it shouldn't be a problem to get the strange three month part out of your contract.

A probation period is meant that they can let you go when they want to without giving you a reason, but also you can go whenever you want to.

Just be careful, I wish you best of luck.

[muzmurray]

Thank you MCfish and Stubuzz for your input.

What confuses me a bit is the fact that up to now, the school has been very courteous and flexible with me. They agreed to pay me as much as I think that I should be making without much hesitation and they also agreed to let me start a couple of weeks later. I am also wondering if it's worth asking them to modify the weird bits in the contract. If they do, it will be a gesture of good will and common sense but the question is, would I want to work for a school that tried to blackmail me even if they failed?

I'm just thinking aloud guys, I know that I am the one who has to make the decision but until a couple of days ago I was excited and preparing for the move, told my boss and friends that I am leaving, they are preparing a good buy party for me, I even almost booked an apartment in Bangkok.It' s a huge bummer, that's why I'm reaching out.

What will they be selling?

[muzmurray]

Never give any employer original documents to "hold". This includes Work Permits. Some schools ask for the Work Permits claiming it's needed and belongs to them anyhow. Just say no. Copies are suffice. The matter of wanting two or one or three months salary if you leave, tell them to "go ahead, sue me". Not a chance it will happen. It's most likely a standard contract they found online some place and doesn't represent the sentiments of the school personal. If it appears as you state, to be a legitimate school looking for qualified teachers paying well, go for it. Worse case is you leave after getting paid. I don't know how you could expect airfare anyhow.

On the housing topic, don't fall for the BS of "two months rent plus a deposit". You pay your first month and a deposit equal to anticipated utilities and perhaps a small damage amount if applicable. I'm disgusted with these Thai "landlords" ripping off foreigners via their deposits. Sometimes violence is in order.

Strange, having lived in 11 different rooms,condos and houses, the norm is 2 months plus a month up front. As for deposits, I have always had every Baht back.

[rkidlad]

OP

These types of clauses are a consequence of the bums who went before you who abused their contracts and showed no consideration for their schools and their students. They are protecting themselves.

Yes, it's always the 'big bad' teachers that are to blame. The schools and their directors are like angels.

End of the day (relative to Thailand) if schools properly interview for decent teachers. treat their teachers fairly and offer a good contract/environment, teachers will usually reciprocate by showing integrity and loyalty. If you employ 'Joe Nobody' based on the fact he looks the part or you're desperate, lazy and/or greedy, you'll usually get a deadbeat.

I've worked at a good school with very low turnaround. I've worked at a bad school with high turnaround. Boss would just blame the teachers. That didn't change anything.

[Deixis]

Thank you all for your feedback and insights. They've been very helpful. The school is willing to revise and modify the funny bits in my contract. So far so good. As it seems I am going to Thailand after all. I know that the experience is going to be at least interesting. Hopefully, I won't come back to this forum whining about my school. If I do feel free to troll me.

[bwpage3]

Hope you have a backup plan if your pay does not arrive on time!

[JayBird]

I honestly do not know much about teacher contracts here, but most of it sounds fair. I would just clarify a couple of points:

1) Probation period -- if *THEY ask YOU to leave, do you have to pay (or loose out on salary due).

2) By original documents, do they mean certified-copies?

And most importantly: If they wish to hold your original passport, this is a big-no-no. This is a known thing done to prevent people from leaving the country. Under no condition should one ever surrender their passport to anyone.

Well, maybe if they put a gun to your head... but only then!

[NanLaew]

Never give any employer original documents to "hold". This includes Work Permits. Some schools ask for the Work Permits claiming it's needed and belongs to them anyhow. Just say no. Copies are suffice. The matter of wanting two or one or three months salary if you leave, tell them to "go ahead, sue me". Not a chance it will happen. It's most likely a standard contract they found online some place and doesn't represent the sentiments of the school personal. If it appears as you state, to be a legitimate school looking for qualified teachers paying well, go for it. Worse case is you leave after getting paid. I don't know how you could expect airfare anyhow.

I think Thai labor law or regulations mandate that the original WP needs to be retained at the actual place of work as stated in the WP. Typically with a registered company, the original would be secure in the employer's HR department's filing cabinet. Most private schools would consider having such a dedicated and secure department as an unnecessary expense.

Taunting any employer with 'go ahead, sue me' in this rather litigious country may not be good advice.

Beware the honey-pot job offer where they waive a hand dismissively and easily agree to an above-average starting salary. I was offered a fantastic paying truck-driving job that ONLY required a 6-month commitment. The fact that it was in post- Saddam Iraq where they retained both your passport and return ticket until the 6 months commitment was fulfilled wasn't mentioned. The devil, as always, is in the details.

On the housing topic, don't fall for the BS of "two months rent plus a deposit". You pay your first month and a deposit equal to anticipated utilities and perhaps a small damage amount if applicable. I'm disgusted with these Thai "landlords" ripping off foreigners via their deposits. Sometimes violence is in order.

Violence is never required. If one does due diligence, being "ripped off" can be totally avoided. I mean one mans 'small damage' assessment will differ wildly from another mans. For example, the average room renter has absolutely no idea of how much paint costs, the going rate for cleaning a cigarette smoke contaminated air conditioner, changing all the door locks because all the keys were not returned or replacing mattresses that have dubious stains. The landlord, by nature of the actions of the average tenant, is quite intimate with the total costs of remediation, including the rental time lost fixing it up after it has been vacated.