Gen Prawit hints at curbs on UDD’s anti-cheating centres

[rubl]

Misdirection, that's what they want you to think, that it's complicated. xyz million ballot papers, xyz different voting locations, xyz different counting stations, xyz staff doing the counting. If there is fraud, it will be in the downstream places, where there is less complexity.

They want you to concentrate on the electorate and the process of ticking in the boxes because that's where the head-spinning numbers are.

What they don't want you to concentrate on is what happens to the the voting machines or what happens downstream from the counting rooms. There are various possibilities, would be easier to spot the weak spots with a process map.

That's why they don't want observers, they don't care about the voting stations, little chance for widespread falsification there that won't eventually come out, but they don't want observers at the points where small groups of people summarise the counted votes. They can't pick and choose where and what the foreign observers observe, so they ban them outright. The only reason for banning foreign observers is that they know what's going to happen.

W

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot.

Rubl. whilst you are probably right about observers not seeing or understanding the finer nuances of politics in Thailand, or perhaps any country they observe, they are not complete and utter morons not to anticpate or ackowledge that this would be the case, and make allowances in their reporting for these issues. I am sure most international organizations have full time persons monitering the situations on the ground even outside of election/referendum time. Given the military's propensity for Coups in Thailand, i presume the country is very well known to them.

In addition, every single point you are trying to make can be said exactly the same for opposition parties in various other parts of the country, BJT party in Buriram, DEM in the southern provinces. In fact nearly every country in the World has strong holds of various parties, Labor in the old mining areas of the UK, Tory in the sunny suburbs of the southern counties.

Surely this type of situation is normal, the only subjective part is how much people are directly influenced in the various areas- in my opinion there is no distinct difference between political thugs the country over, so i dont see why there would be any difference in voter cohersion or influencing anywhere in the country.

The simple fact is that the 'Red" areas of the country are far more populous than the others, and as such they win elections.

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

[rubl]

during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power

Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections

there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin

Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol

Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions, usually it is the Thai people but since they were generally ignored when millions took to the streets in peaceful protests and were slaughtered by government sponsored terrorists while the police were told to do nothing, I see this as a reasonable compromise and a necessary one.

"during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power"

Yes, and that was clearly correct.

"Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections"

Charter approved? Approved by who?? We are heading for an election - really? When will that be? Wanting the charter to be rejected - yes. Elections - yes.

"there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin"

The UDD is not contesting in an election so why should it be elected?? Who here on TVF wants the unelected junta ti hand over power to the unelected UDD?? What I'm saying is "hold elections and whoever wins forms the government".

"Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol"

And?

"Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions,"

So elected representatives have to answer to unelected persons. Tell me; who/what ensures that the unelected persons are any better that the elected ones???

In fact, let me pose the question yet again;

After a bunch of coups that didn't change a thing what is it about the present junta that makes you believe anything will be different?

PS. I'm disappointed that you did not mention the YL government's failed amnesty bid. Has it fina;lly dawned on you that bleeting on about this is hypocritical?

No, the failed amnesty plot is just irrelevant here.

[rubl]

Can one of the junta supporters please step in and explain why banning foreign observers is a good thing?

Not expecting an answer of course, but miracles do sometime happen...

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Foreign observers seem to be somewhat confused about Thai election games. So no need for them.

"An Asian election monitoring group has hailed Thailand's nationwide election as final results were tallied for being generally peaceful, orderly and allowing the public to express their voice. But, theAsian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics. "

http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-observer-group-commends-thai-election-cites-minor-flaws--125003034/141777.html

"Having served as a short-term international observer for the general election in Thailand earlier this month on July 3, I unfortunately became somewhat of an expert in the dark arts of vote buying.

As one of 60 observers from the Asian Network for Free Elections (ANFREL) deployed around the country, I spent eight days in Chonburi province in the lead-up to election day. Located just a little east of Bangkok, Chonburi is home to Kamnan Poh, the notorious godfather who once declared, “I used to have enemies in Chonburi, but they all died.” "

http://asiafoundation.org/2011/07/13/dark-reality-to-vote-buying-in-thailand/

Actually the headline of your first reference says it all: "Asian Observer Group Commends Thai Election, Cites Minor Flaws". The election wasn't perfect, but it reflected the will of the voters.

No election is perfect. However there is no evidence that vote buying was more prevalent on one side or the other in past elections, or that it affected outcomes of national elections. However if people are concerned about vote buying or other forms of cheating during the referendum they should welcome outside observers.

Can you explain how not having international election observers will make for a more credible vote?

Ignoring the second quote? Now that's a good reason why foreign observers are not needed.

[rubl]

There is no such thing as a yellow, what we have now is a small group of thugs that are paid for their services "by the" now insignificant criminal on the run and then we have the rest of the Thai population who have become well aware of the situation after the antics of the last government - they have had enough

the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF need to smell the cheese - it's over, red terrorism will never raise its head again in Thailand

Well, I guess we'll see in due course. It ain't over 'til it's over and the fat lady sings.

Winnie

Does your knee-jerk reaction imply you think red terrorism will rise again?

[rubl]

Can one of the junta supporters please step in and explain why banning foreign observers is a good thing?

Not expecting an answer of course, but miracles do sometime happen...

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Foreign observers seem to be somewhat confused about Thai election games. So no need for them.

"An Asian election monitoring group has hailed Thailand's nationwide election as final results were tallied for being generally peaceful, orderly and allowing the public to express their voice. But, theAsian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics. "

http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-observer-group-commends-thai-election-cites-minor-flaws--125003034/141777.html

"Having served as a short-term international observer for the general election in Thailand earlier this month on July 3, I unfortunately became somewhat of an expert in the dark arts of vote buying.

As one of 60 observers from the Asian Network for Free Elections (ANFREL) deployed around the country, I spent eight days in Chonburi province in the lead-up to election day. Located just a little east of Bangkok, Chonburi is home to Kamnan Poh, the notorious godfather who once declared, “I used to have enemies in Chonburi, but they all died.” "

http://asiafoundation.org/2011/07/13/dark-reality-to-vote-buying-in-thailand/

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Translated: I know you know I'm a junta-hugger, but if I say I am, then you won't take me seriously.

So

This time, I'll say I'm not a junta-hugger so you'll take what I say seriously and forget all my posts for the last however many months.

Seriously, you can believe me. Honest. Promise. Cross my heart and hope to die.

ps I love Yingluck and I want to have her babies. No, wait, that's not right...

Winnie

ps Not a junta-hugger... dear oh dear...

typical for some posters here to attack a poster rather than his post. Anyone who dares to have an opinion different from what some promote it should be seems fair game.

So I guess you can't be bothered to read the two articles on comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011

[rubl]

There is a violent organisation close by and intimidating. But most people would have a clearer idea what that might be than the crazies.

That's one reason why PM Prayut doesn't want the UDD nearby. If necessary the army will keep them away. That's no problem, even the possibly caretaking MoFA Surapong suggested the army declare Martial Law so he could have his election.

[rubl]

Can one of the junta supporters please step in and explain why banning foreign observers is a good thing?

Not expecting an answer of course, but miracles do sometime happen...

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Foreign observers seem to be somewhat confused about Thai election games. So no need for them.

"An Asian election monitoring group has hailed Thailand's nationwide election as final results were tallied for being generally peaceful, orderly and allowing the public to express their voice. But, theAsian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics. "

http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-observer-group-commends-thai-election-cites-minor-flaws--125003034/141777.html

"Having served as a short-term international observer for the general election in Thailand earlier this month on July 3, I unfortunately became somewhat of an expert in the dark arts of vote buying.

As one of 60 observers from the Asian Network for Free Elections (ANFREL) deployed around the country, I spent eight days in Chonburi province in the lead-up to election day. Located just a little east of Bangkok, Chonburi is home to Kamnan Poh, the notorious godfather who once declared, I used to have enemies in Chonburi, but they all died. "

http://asiafoundation.org/2011/07/13/dark-reality-to-vote-buying-in-thailand/

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Translated: I know you know I'm a junta-hugger, but if I say I am, then you won't take me seriously.

So

This time, I'll say I'm not a junta-hugger so you'll take what I say seriously and forget all my posts for the last however many months.

Seriously, you can believe me. Honest. Promise. Cross my heart and hope to die.

ps I love Yingluck and I want to have her babies. No, wait, that's not right...

Winnie

ps Not a junta-hugger... dear oh dear...

I think you might find that what he means is either 'I am not ORDINARILY a supporter of juntas with the exception of this one' or 'I do not accept the fact that the Thai junta is a junta'.

I like the rest of what you had to say, however.

Of course our Baboon comes with his 2 cents on personel attacks and likes them as well. No surprise.

One more who tries to avoid to read the two articles describing comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011.

[rubl]

^^

All very interesting I'm sure, but all we were doing was calling into question rubl's use of the phrase "Not a junta supporter".

Perhaps a little decaff next time the kettle boils?

Edit: In response to your post 65, obviously.

"we"? No surprise.

Also no surprise that anyone who does not share rabid anti-junta ideas is attacked on person by self-styled defenders of democracy and a baboon.

[rubl]

Does anyone actually believe the outcome will be different from what the military wants it to be? To many eyes......not easy to ensure the correct result

Misdirection, that's what they want you to think, that it's complicated. xyz million ballot papers, xyz different voting locations, xyz different counting stations, xyz staff doing the counting. If there is fraud, it will be in the downstream places, where there is less complexity.

They want you to concentrate on the electorate and the process of ticking in the boxes because that's where the head-spinning numbers are.

What they don't want you to concentrate on is what happens to the the voting machines or what happens downstream from the counting rooms. There are various possibilities, would be easier to spot the weak spots with a process map.

That's why they don't want observers, they don't care about the voting stations, little chance for widespread falsification there that won't eventually come out, but they don't want observers at the points where small groups of people summarise the counted votes. They can't pick and choose where and what the foreign observers observe, so they ban them outright. The only reason for banning foreign observers is that they know what's going to happen.

W

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot." My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence."

No, they are complete idiots of course.

" There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot."

OK, I'm sure you can back this statement up with proof?

No proof, but I think the villages are still red.

As for 'all are red', of course, UDD and various red shirt leaders told us so. Dr. weng learned all about freedom of choice when he was in Vietnam in the 70sh. A visible political arm and the invisible other arm for control.

Anyway this is about why there's no need for either foreign or UDD observers.

The trouble is, that you just say there is no need. So far without one compelling argument.

There is one very compelling argument to have observers. There is a good chance that the people who instigated this referendum are going to cheat.

They cheated themselves into power, have since introduced the referendum act which pervents normal debate on the charter and they will not stop to get the yes vote they so desire.

By the way, it might be good to point out that PT or the UDD aren't the only ones that oppose this charter. Over at the yellow side of the fence, the Democrats have opposed it too.

Ironically this might be the junta's biggest achievement yet, they have finally managed to have PT and the Democrats agee on something !

So, no good reasons why there should be foreign observers. Did you read the two articles I posted links to? Comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011.

BTW why would the current government cheat? Some nice posters here made suggestions it doesn't matter whether Thai are in favour or against the draft charter. A bit like the brexit. Any foreign observers there as I've read some 'stated' the UK government is cheating? If no foreign observers there I see one more reason why none are needed here.

Edited June 15, 2016 by rubl

[rubl]

Does anyone actually believe the outcome will be different from what the military wants it to be? To many eyes......not easy to ensure the correct result

Misdirection, that's what they want you to think, that it's complicated. xyz million ballot papers, xyz different voting locations, xyz different counting stations, xyz staff doing the counting. If there is fraud, it will be in the downstream places, where there is less complexity.

They want you to concentrate on the electorate and the process of ticking in the boxes because that's where the head-spinning numbers are.

What they don't want you to concentrate on is what happens to the the voting machines or what happens downstream from the counting rooms. There are various possibilities, would be easier to spot the weak spots with a process map.

That's why they don't want observers, they don't care about the voting stations, little chance for widespread falsification there that won't eventually come out, but they don't want observers at the points where small groups of people summarise the counted votes. They can't pick and choose where and what the foreign observers observe, so they ban them outright. The only reason for banning foreign observers is that they know what's going to happen.

W

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot.

"Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion."

90% of what you say is also opinion, friend, people in glass houses should not throw stones.

90% of what else is said in this forum is also opinion, viewpoint, conclusion, it's all subjective.

Yours was a silly point to make really, didn't do your street-cred any favours.

W

The difference being is some like to state as fact and others take those 'facts' to go on and a third finishes with the 'right' conclusion. Baboon slipped a bit when he mentioned 'we'. IMHO

[smutcakes]

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

Rubl you are being intentionally disingenous about my post but you know this. My post makes it clear it is normal for their to be pockets of support for political parties the world over, and there are variety of issues for this. This does not mean these areas are bought, it means for one reason or another they have preference for a particular party.

MZurf says their is no down side to having foregin obersevers. In fact one would of thought it welcomed by the powers that be, given they have assured everyone of their saintly objectives for over 2 years now. Just think how big a PR victory it would be for them to have observers here to see a well run and interference free process.

I fail to see how me saying that having pockets of strong political support for one party or another as being normal, relates to your post that foreign observers are not allowed in other countries? We are talking about the process of the vote rather than which way people will vote.

[Winniedapu]

There is no such thing as a yellow, what we have now is a small group of thugs that are paid for their services "by the" now insignificant criminal on the run and then we have the rest of the Thai population who have become well aware of the situation after the antics of the last government - they have had enough

the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF need to smell the cheese - it's over, red terrorism will never raise its head again in Thailand

Well, I guess we'll see in due course. It ain't over 'til it's over and the fat lady sings.

Winnie

Does your knee-jerk reaction imply you think red terrorism will rise again?

Well, I generally think with my brain and not my knees, but you're allowed to do whatever you want...

On the basis that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, then yes, I do. In fact... <deleted - never mind>

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

Misdirection, that's what they want you to think, that it's complicated. xyz million ballot papers, xyz different voting locations, xyz different counting stations, xyz staff doing the counting. If there is fraud, it will be in the downstream places, where there is less complexity.

They want you to concentrate on the electorate and the process of ticking in the boxes because that's where the head-spinning numbers are.

What they don't want you to concentrate on is what happens to the the voting machines or what happens downstream from the counting rooms. There are various possibilities, would be easier to spot the weak spots with a process map.

That's why they don't want observers, they don't care about the voting stations, little chance for widespread falsification there that won't eventually come out, but they don't want observers at the points where small groups of people summarise the counted votes. They can't pick and choose where and what the foreign observers observe, so they ban them outright. The only reason for banning foreign observers is that they know what's going to happen.

W

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot.

"Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion."

90% of what you say is also opinion, friend, people in glass houses should not throw stones.

90% of what else is said in this forum is also opinion, viewpoint, conclusion, it's all subjective.

Yours was a silly point to make really, didn't do your street-cred any favours.

W

The difference being is some like to state as fact and others take those 'facts' to go on and a third finishes with the 'right' conclusion. Baboon slipped a bit when he mentioned 'we'. IMHO

Even though you seem to have been responding to a post by me. OK... interesting.

Winnie

[MZurf]

during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power

Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections

there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin

Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol

Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions, usually it is the Thai people but since they were generally ignored when millions took to the streets in peaceful protests and were slaughtered by government sponsored terrorists while the police were told to do nothing, I see this as a reasonable compromise and a necessary one.

"during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power"

Yes, and that was clearly correct.

"Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections"

Charter approved? Approved by who?? We are heading for an election - really? When will that be? Wanting the charter to be rejected - yes. Elections - yes.

"there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin"

The UDD is not contesting in an election so why should it be elected?? Who here on TVF wants the unelected junta ti hand over power to the unelected UDD?? What I'm saying is "hold elections and whoever wins forms the government".

"Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol"

And?

"Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions,"

So elected representatives have to answer to unelected persons. Tell me; who/what ensures that the unelected persons are any better that the elected ones???

In fact, let me pose the question yet again;

After a bunch of coups that didn't change a thing what is it about the present junta that makes you believe anything will be different?

PS. I'm disappointed that you did not mention the YL government's failed amnesty bid. Has it fina;lly dawned on you that bleeting on about this is hypocritical?

No, the failed amnesty plot is just irrelevant here.

Irrelevant?? How can the failed amnesty attempt be irrelevant in any discussion about the political situation in Thailand as it's used as THE excuse for the coup?

[Winniedapu]

Does anyone actually believe the outcome will be different from what the military wants it to be? To many eyes......not easy to ensure the correct result

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot." My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence."

No, they are complete idiots of course.

" There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot."

OK, I'm sure you can back this statement up with proof?

No proof, but I think the villages are still red.

As for 'all are red', of course, UDD and various red shirt leaders told us so. Dr. weng learned all about freedom of choice when he was in Vietnam in the 70sh. A visible political arm and the invisible other arm for control.

Anyway this is about why there's no need for either foreign or UDD observers.

The trouble is, that you just say there is no need. So far without one compelling argument.

There is one very compelling argument to have observers. There is a good chance that the people who instigated this referendum are going to cheat.

They cheated themselves into power, have since introduced the referendum act which pervents normal debate on the charter and they will not stop to get the yes vote they so desire.

By the way, it might be good to point out that PT or the UDD aren't the only ones that oppose this charter. Over at the yellow side of the fence, the Democrats have opposed it too.

Ironically this might be the junta's biggest achievement yet, they have finally managed to have PT and the Democrats agee on something !

So, no good reasons why there should be foreign observers. Did you read the two articles I posted links to? Comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011.

BTW why would the current government cheat? Some nice posters here made suggestions it doesn't matter whether Thai are in favour or against the draft charter. A bit like the brexit. Any foreign observers there as I've read some 'stated' the UK government is cheating? If no foreign observers there I see one more reason why none are needed here.

"BTW why would the current government cheat?"

is that a trick question?

Winnie

[Eric Loh]

there is no such thing as a yellow shirt which certain people keep mentioning on this thread, that would imply that there were rival factions which is all very well and gives thaksin and his funded terrorist reds a purpose but they are gone, there is no longer such a movement, you have the vast majority of Thai people and a funded terror group called redshirt or UDD

"""""""There is no longer such an organisation called yellow shirt in thailand"""""""""" Thaksin and his followers would like to think there is such a thing because you cannot have a conflict unless there are identifiable sides, this is the closest Thailand will get towards so called reconcilliation, no more yellows and red side that cannot justify their existance or purpose

The yellows are gone, all that is left are the ordinary Thai people niether red or yellow just people and a small group of funded thugs that are trying to justify their existance

The reason I have mentioned this several times on this thread are two fold

1. stupididty keeps talking about yellow shirt - they don't exist anymore

2. the UDD seem to think they have a mandate to control something or interfere in a process or act in some sort of official capacity - well they don't, why should they

You say that there is no longer a yellow shirt organization. Think again. Who is running the country now. The only organization that is resisting the derailment of democracy, human rights abuse and the curtailment of the freedom of expression is the UDD. Many will praise them for their stand and bravery against the coup. They don't have a mandate for anything especially when the government is the military but credit them for trying and in doing so, expose the lots of ugly truth which will never be known if the government had their ways.

[MZurf]

They want you to concentrate on the electorate and the process of ticking in the boxes because that's where the head-spinning numbers are.

What they don't want you to concentrate on is what happens to the the voting machines or what happens downstream from the counting rooms. There are various possibilities, would be easier to spot the weak spots with a process map.

That's why they don't want observers, they don't care about the voting stations, little chance for widespread falsification there that won't eventually come out, but they don't want observers at the points where small groups of people summarise the counted votes. They can't pick and choose where and what the foreign observers observe, so they ban them outright. The only reason for banning foreign observers is that they know what's going to happen.

W

Although stated as fact and true, it's actually only your subjective opinion. And that of a few other posters here of course.

My opinion is that foreign observers don't see the wheeling and dealing before the referendum, neither do they understand the threat of having a violent organisation which is against the charter close by and intimidating in their presence. There are still 'red village' were everyone is a red shirt as declared by the UDD. Free choice, my foot.

Rubl. whilst you are probably right about observers not seeing or understanding the finer nuances of politics in Thailand, or perhaps any country they observe, they are not complete and utter morons not to anticpate or ackowledge that this would be the case, and make allowances in their reporting for these issues. I am sure most international organizations have full time persons monitering the situations on the ground even outside of election/referendum time. Given the military's propensity for Coups in Thailand, i presume the country is very well known to them.

In addition, every single point you are trying to make can be said exactly the same for opposition parties in various other parts of the country, BJT party in Buriram, DEM in the southern provinces. In fact nearly every country in the World has strong holds of various parties, Labor in the old mining areas of the UK, Tory in the sunny suburbs of the southern counties.

Surely this type of situation is normal, the only subjective part is how much people are directly influenced in the various areas- in my opinion there is no distinct difference between political thugs the country over, so i dont see why there would be any difference in voter cohersion or influencing anywhere in the country.

The simple fact is that the 'Red" areas of the country are far more populous than the others, and as such they win elections.

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

"Do you have foreign observers required in your home country?"

Don't think it's required but they're more than welcome.

"Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?"

You mean the Thai EC? What does that have to do with anything?

"So, no reason."

A junta that claims they overthrew the elected government in order to "fix" the country need to use every opportunity to increase their credibility, especially one that has failed so miserably in what they promised to do.

So, reason.

[Winniedapu]

during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power

Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections

there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin

Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol

Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions, usually it is the Thai people but since they were generally ignored when millions took to the streets in peaceful protests and were slaughtered by government sponsored terrorists while the police were told to do nothing, I see this as a reasonable compromise and a necessary one.

"during the last attempt at a new charter all the red fan boys on here made claims that the government didn't want the charter approved because they wanted to stay in power"

Yes, and that was clearly correct.

"Now that this charter is aprroved and we are heading for a referendum and ultimately and election you are all now wanting the referendum to be rejected and no elections"

Charter approved? Approved by who?? We are heading for an election - really? When will that be? Wanting the charter to be rejected - yes. Elections - yes.

"there no pleasing you is there, the only thing that is going to work is to hand control of the country over to the nonelected UUD lol and control given back to the convicted criminal Thaksin"

The UDD is not contesting in an election so why should it be elected?? Who here on TVF wants the unelected junta ti hand over power to the unelected UDD?? What I'm saying is "hold elections and whoever wins forms the government".

"Oh and who was the idiot farang (in the photo) I noticed on the red stage last week when they made this announcement, well it looked like a farang lol"

And?

"Oh and before you claim election or not the army will still be in power - that is your interpretation, I quite like the idea that a future elected Thai government actually has to answer to someone for their actions,"

So elected representatives have to answer to unelected persons. Tell me; who/what ensures that the unelected persons are any better that the elected ones???

In fact, let me pose the question yet again;

After a bunch of coups that didn't change a thing what is it about the present junta that makes you believe anything will be different?

PS. I'm disappointed that you did not mention the YL government's failed amnesty bid. Has it fina;lly dawned on you that bleeting on about this is hypocritical?

No, the failed amnesty plot is just irrelevant here.

Irrelevant?? How can the failed amnesty attempt be irrelevant in any discussion about the political situation in Thailand as it's used as THE excuse for the coup?

Was certainly the excuse. Wasn't the reason, but it was certainly the excuse.

W

[MZurf]

No proof, but I think the villages are still red.

As for 'all are red', of course, UDD and various red shirt leaders told us so. Dr. weng learned all about freedom of choice when he was in Vietnam in the 70sh. A visible political arm and the invisible other arm for control.

Anyway this is about why there's no need for either foreign or UDD observers.

The trouble is, that you just say there is no need. So far without one compelling argument.

There is one very compelling argument to have observers. There is a good chance that the people who instigated this referendum are going to cheat.

They cheated themselves into power, have since introduced the referendum act which pervents normal debate on the charter and they will not stop to get the yes vote they so desire.

By the way, it might be good to point out that PT or the UDD aren't the only ones that oppose this charter. Over at the yellow side of the fence, the Democrats have opposed it too.

Ironically this might be the junta's biggest achievement yet, they have finally managed to have PT and the Democrats agee on something !

So, no good reasons why there should be foreign observers. Did you read the two articles I posted links to? Comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011.

BTW why would the current government cheat? Some nice posters here made suggestions it doesn't matter whether Thai are in favour or against the draft charter. A bit like the brexit. Any foreign observers there as I've read some 'stated' the UK government is cheating? If no foreign observers there I see one more reason why none are needed here.

"BTW why would the current government cheat?"

is that a trick question?

Winnie

You know, sometimes it's veeeery hard to accept his claim that he's not a junta supporter.

[Winniedapu]

The trouble is, that you just say there is no need. So far without one compelling argument.

There is one very compelling argument to have observers. There is a good chance that the people who instigated this referendum are going to cheat.

They cheated themselves into power, have since introduced the referendum act which pervents normal debate on the charter and they will not stop to get the yes vote they so desire.

By the way, it might be good to point out that PT or the UDD aren't the only ones that oppose this charter. Over at the yellow side of the fence, the Democrats have opposed it too.

Ironically this might be the junta's biggest achievement yet, they have finally managed to have PT and the Democrats agee on something !

So, no good reasons why there should be foreign observers. Did you read the two articles I posted links to? Comments from foreign observers who were here in 2011.

BTW why would the current government cheat? Some nice posters here made suggestions it doesn't matter whether Thai are in favour or against the draft charter. A bit like the brexit. Any foreign observers there as I've read some 'stated' the UK government is cheating? If no foreign observers there I see one more reason why none are needed here.

"BTW why would the current government cheat?"

is that a trick question?

Winnie

You know, sometimes it's veeeery hard to accept his claim that he's not a junta supporter.

I do know, it's dispiriting sometimes to contemplate the state of the bottom of the barrel of human evolution, but there is always hope. There always has to be hope.

Please understand I am completely without bias in this, however, there is a certain responsibility one has to bear when dealing with the irrational. It does no good to defeat by logic, nor to humiliate by sarcasm, since both of these instruments require rationality to savour and appreciate.

An old-fashioned pat on the head and pointing out that Mummy's calling is often the best (and sometimes the only) answer.

Noblesse oblige...

W

[smedly]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

[baboon]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

I don't really see how you are in a position to be calling anyone out for labelling others - your "the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF" being a particular favourite of mine - but that aside, I think you will find the vast majority of us posting on here want the same things as you, we just don't see it happening with the current people in power.

[Khun Han]

Smedly, I think all of us want to see a modern, inclusive, relatively corruption-free Thailand. You and others don't see it being delivered by a flawed democracy that gets abused by the highly-efficient corruption of Thaksin's technocrats. I and others don't see it coming from a corrupt, unaccountable, extremely thuggish military backed by a Bangkok establishment mafia that's at least as bad as Thaksin's lot.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Khun Han

[Winniedapu]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

A generally sane and sensible post, thanks for that.

I don't however agree that Thaksin is necessarily gone for good, and in fact, I think that Thasksin's potential as a country manager has been (understandably) clouded by his pretty unattractive personality and his wholly unattractive venal nature. If both of those can be controlled or at least mitigated, then I think he might make a decent PM or more... I believe we have to distinguish between the reality and the myths about him that have been generated by the old-boys club in Thailand, purely for their own benefit.

On balance, from the management perspective and looking beyond the hugely entertaining but otherwise useless Dumpy and Grumpy show, I think the best PM Thailand has had for a long time was Yingluck, certainly she eclipses Abhisit, and that perfectly awful numbskull Samak (whatever was Thaksin thinking when he put forward that muppet?). I'm not even going to mention Chavalit, because for some reason when I do think about him a picture of Mr Blobby automatically swims up in my consciousness (for those who don't know who Mr Blobby is, Google is your friend).

TI think there here are some options for Thaksin after nature takes its course. and always assuming that Mr Grumpy does not, in fact, get his way in some key areas, bu I will admit that most of them are only probable in a post-civil-war scenario for Thailand. For me, this is the point of redshirt militancy right now, the election isn't going to happen until 2018 at the earliest and probably not then either, Mr Grumpy will always be able to find a flimsy excuse that the international community might buy because in essence, apart from having a few well-placed fields to land planes in, Thailand doesn't actually have anything that anyone else wants. Otherwise of course, he can do as he threatened and close the country, but nobody will care and only the occasional tourist or sex tourist would notice. There are lots of other tourist venues and prostitution is cheap elsewhere as well.

I think it's premature to write him off. Though many might wish he would simply disappear up his own fundament, I think it's pretty clear he isn't going to. I think we haven't yet seen the last of Mr Thaksin.

winnie.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Winniedapu

[smedly]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

I don't really see how you are in a position to be calling anyone out for labelling others - your "the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF" being a particular favourite of mine - but that aside, I think you will find the vast majority of us posting on here want the same things as you, we just don't see it happening with the current people in power.

very rarely if ever have I used that term and I most definitely did not start that sort of slandering

since we are talking very broadly on the same page, who do you think or what process do you think would bring about such change, I said on here many years ago that Thailand needs a hero a man that has the interests of the country and its people to make the changes, I to an extent see that man in the current PM, I could be wrong but I am willing to wait and see what comes out of it, if we take him at his word then he could be the one, it cannot happen with an elected government simply because no single man could achieve such a thing when he has a government full of self serving leeches that would be very quick to remove him/her at the first sign of them trying to end the corruption and power abuse, a strong rigid constitution is the solid base to build from, independent agencies that can call a government to account and a justice system that can deal with wrong doers with severe penalties

Singapore is a fine example in SEA of how such reforms can be achieved, it took a very long time of hurt and hardship but look at how it developed and it is now

PS also worth noting I have been the author of some very scathing critical attacks on the current government and PM were I thought it was deserved and will continue to do so, they have made some very poor choices and come out with some extremely stupid statements - they are for sure no experts in diplomacy and political speak

Edited June 15, 2016 by smedly

[Khun Han]

The current guy a hero? You're doing a wind-up, right? You don't know how him and his crew made their first serious money? You can even find a 'family friends' connection to the island mafia family you have posted so sensibly about if you do a bit of research. There are no heroes among this lot. You've unwittingly chosen to support the big mafia.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Khun Han

[heybruce]

Can one of the junta supporters please step in and explain why banning foreign observers is a good thing?

Not expecting an answer of course, but miracles do sometime happen...

Not a junta supporter but I hope you don't mind I answer this question.

Foreign observers seem to be somewhat confused about Thai election games. So no need for them.

"An Asian election monitoring group has hailed Thailand's nationwide election as final results were tallied for being generally peaceful, orderly and allowing the public to express their voice. But, theAsian Network for Free Elections also cited some flaws in the polls and warned the Thai military not to intervene in politics. "

http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-observer-group-commends-thai-election-cites-minor-flaws--125003034/141777.html

"Having served as a short-term international observer for the general election in Thailand earlier this month on July 3, I unfortunately became somewhat of an expert in the dark arts of vote buying.

As one of 60 observers from the Asian Network for Free Elections (ANFREL) deployed around the country, I spent eight days in Chonburi province in the lead-up to election day. Located just a little east of Bangkok, Chonburi is home to Kamnan Poh, the notorious godfather who once declared, “I used to have enemies in Chonburi, but they all died.” "

http://asiafoundation.org/2011/07/13/dark-reality-to-vote-buying-in-thailand/

Actually the headline of your first reference says it all: "Asian Observer Group Commends Thai Election, Cites Minor Flaws". The election wasn't perfect, but it reflected the will of the voters.

No election is perfect. However there is no evidence that vote buying was more prevalent on one side or the other in past elections, or that it affected outcomes of national elections. However if people are concerned about vote buying or other forms of cheating during the referendum they should welcome outside observers.

Can you explain how not having international election observers will make for a more credible vote?

Ignoring the second quote? Now that's a good reason why foreign observers are not needed.

The second quote talked about vote buying without stating which side of the political divide the vote buying favored. It was covered by both the first and second paragraphs of my reply.

Ignoring the headline of your first reference? Ignoring my final question? Ignoring the claims of vote buying and election fraud by so many junta supporters?

[heybruce]

Rubl. whilst you are probably right about observers not seeing or understanding the finer nuances of politics in Thailand, or perhaps any country they observe, they are not complete and utter morons not to anticpate or ackowledge that this would be the case, and make allowances in their reporting for these issues. I am sure most international organizations have full time persons monitering the situations on the ground even outside of election/referendum time. Given the military's propensity for Coups in Thailand, i presume the country is very well known to them.

In addition, every single point you are trying to make can be said exactly the same for opposition parties in various other parts of the country, BJT party in Buriram, DEM in the southern provinces. In fact nearly every country in the World has strong holds of various parties, Labor in the old mining areas of the UK, Tory in the sunny suburbs of the southern counties.

Surely this type of situation is normal, the only subjective part is how much people are directly influenced in the various areas- in my opinion there is no distinct difference between political thugs the country over, so i dont see why there would be any difference in voter cohersion or influencing anywhere in the country.

The simple fact is that the 'Red" areas of the country are far more populous than the others, and as such they win elections.

What you are saying is that for some it's much more interesting to buy the 'red' areas as they are more populous and better able to deliver the 'election victory' required for a Shinawatra controlled business called Thailand. Just what was done in 2001.

You also seem to indicate such control is normal in Democracies. Interesting.

Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away.

"Anyway, none of this gives any reason why either foreign or UDD observers should be allowed. Actually it gives good reasons why they should be kept away."

Absolutely nothing gives any reason why foreign observers should be barred from observing the referendum. There is absolutely no downside unless the junta plans to rig it and a huge upside in international credibility (which this junta desperately needs) if it doesn't.

Given their refusal to allow observers I guess it's the former.

Well smutcakes calls things normal. Do you have foreign observers required in your home country? Does the EC requested to post foreign observers at British brexit referendum polling stations?

So, no reason.

"Do you have foreign observers required in your home country?"

No, but they are welcome. However in my country we don't have people screaming "vote buying" whenever they don't like the election results.

We also don't have a military government that came to power by a coup against an elected government and that censors the press and freedom of speech. In fact, we don't have a lot of undemocratic things that Thailand currently has. That's why people don't trust the junta to stage a fair referendum.

So, reason.

Edit: It's also worth noting that in my country, and the EU countries, there is an active free press that can report on political issues without fear and censorship. Thailand doesn't have that. Another good reason for international election observers.

Edited June 15, 2016 by heybruce

[Winniedapu]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

I don't really see how you are in a position to be calling anyone out for labelling others - your "the thaksin fan club constantly spaming TVF" being a particular favourite of mine - but that aside, I think you will find the vast majority of us posting on here want the same things as you, we just don't see it happening with the current people in power.

very rarely if ever have I used that term and I most definitely did not start that sort of slandering

since we are talking very broadly on the same page, who do you think or what process do you think would bring about such change, I said on here many years ago that Thailand needs a hero a man that has the interests of the country and its people to make the changes, I to an extent see that man in the current PM, I could be wrong but I am willing to wait and see what comes out of it, if we take him at his word then he could be the one, it cannot happen with an elected government simply because no single man could achieve such a thing when he has a government full of self serving leeches that would be very quick to remove him/her at the first sign of them trying to end the corruption and power abuse, a strong rigid constitution is the solid base to build from, independent agencies that can call a government to account and a justice system that can deal with wrong doers with severe penalties

Singapore is a fine example in SEA of how such reforms can be achieved, it took a very long time of hurt and hardship but look at how it developed and it is now

PS also worth noting I have been the author of some very scathing critical attacks on the current government and PM were I thought it was deserved and will continue to do so, they have made some very poor choices and come out with some extremely stupid statements - they are for sure no experts in diplomacy and political speak

And then, frankly, you go and ruin it all. After the Lord Mayor's show, comes the dustcart.

Hero? Oh please...

W

[heybruce]

many people that post here although accused are not "junta supporters" as you lot call them, we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children.

We all have a vested interest in Thailand to see it doing well, we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice, the people have had enough, just maybe when this process has ended we may see Thailand on a path of stability, it will take a very long time to bring Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves, just maybe that is about to change

Thaksin is gone for good unless he decides to come back and go to jail, those that have been feeding off his corrupt accumulated wealth and ill gotten gains are going to find it drying up soon. Go find a job and get off the stage

"we are a group of people that want change in Thailand, an end to power abuse and massive corruption and murder on the streets of innocent people including children."

So you support a junta run by a massively corrupt military that abuses power with frequent coups and, so far, does most of its murdering in the south and the border areas. The military has demonstrated that it is willing to turn its guns on unarmed civilians in the streets and make people disappear during past periods of military rule. The Thai people know this, that's why they are reluctant to rise up against an intensely unpopular junta.

"we have witnessed serious levels of violence for some time now mostly caused by corrupt elected governments abusing power and/or evading justice"

The violence has been caused by unelected politicians who won't accept election results and don't want new elections because they know they won't win. People like Suthep.

"Thailand out of the dark ages and elevate it from 3rd world, it is possible but the right people need to be in place for it to succeed - no elected government has ever attempted such a thing because they have been too busy looking after their own interests and have always been a major part of the problem enriching themselves,"

A big part of Thailand's third world status comes from the military's fondness for coups. No elected government will attempt to take on the military until democracy is so well established the military won't dare stage a coup. At the same time, and for a long time after, it will be up to the voters, not some corrupt generals, to demand the elected government do something about Thailand's other problems.

"just maybe that is about to change"

You refuse to acknowledge Thailand's past history of coups and military governments--none of them have made things better. Your refusal to acknowledge the facts is why other posters refuse to take you seriously.