Bringing Thaksin To Account

[hammered]

Legally and under a democratic system everyone kille din the drugs was was innocent whether involved in drug trade or not. Well unless one doesnt believe in rule of law, innocence until proven guilty, and right to a day in court or democracy etc

[Plus]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

[hammered]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

True. All international standard holds the head of the government responsible for what happens under government policy in these kind of cases.

[ballpoint]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

True. All international standard holds the head of the government responsible for what happens under government policy in these kind of cases.

Especially when the views of that government is clearly on record:

"Promising “brutal measures” against drug traffickers, Thaksin said, “Drug dealers and traffickers are heartless and wicked. All of them must be sent to meet the guardian of hel_l, so that there will not be any drugs in the country.” - Human rights watch

"Wan Muhamad Nor Matha, the interior minister at the time, said of drug traffickers, “They will be put behind bars or even vanish without a trace. Who cares? They are destroying our country.” - Human rights watch

""In this war, drug dealers must die," Thaksin has said" - IHT

[sriracha john]

Prosecutors granted powers to carry out investigations

Public prosecutors are now able to carry out criminal investigations to balance powers which in the past have rested solely in the hands of police.

Kayasit Pisawongprakan, the Office of the Attorney-General's executive director for criminal litigation, told public prosecutors yesterday at a seminar the Criminal Procedure Code had been amended to give them greater powers.

The amendments affect Article 20, which covers investigation of overseas cases, and Articles 150 and 155/1, which cover investigations, autopsies, and extra-judicial killings.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1230...-investigations

[hammered]

Take a look at Suttichai Yoon's latest blog entry:

http://suthichaiyoon.blogspot.com/

Any real chance of Thaksin being arrested in HK or is another story to get his trembling and back off to Nicaragua? Wonder if he has the Sandanista T-shirt yet?

[sriracha john]

Take a look at Suttichai Yoon's latest blog entry:

http://suthichaiyoon.blogspot.com/

Any real chance of Thaksin being arrested in HK or is another story to get his trembling and back off to Nicaragua? Wonder if he has the Sandanista T-shirt yet?

I understand Central Americans, just like the Brits, have difficulty pronouncing Thai names and will, just like Manchester's "Frank"... call him "Anastasio Somoza." It's a name and personality that can readily analogize to him.... and one they can easily pronounce.

Edited February 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[bungy007]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

As I recall quotas were also issued to Provincial govenors who were threantened with being moved to an inactive job if they failed to meet the required number of murders designated to their provinces. all of this was written in both the Nation and the Bangkok Post. Why haven't those govenors been bought to book as part of this horrific crime against Thailand's people?

Cheers John for straightening out the thread topic - I thought I'd missed something and the whole topic had been changed!

[animatic]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

As I recall quotas were also issued to Provincial govenors who were threantened with being moved to an inactive job if they failed to meet the required number of murders designated to their provinces. all of this was written in both the Nation and the Bangkok Post. Why haven't those govenors been bought to book as part of this horrific crime against Thailand's people

Cheers John for straightening out the thread topic - I thought I'd missed something and the whole topic had been changed!

I don't think it was so crudely stated as murders per district.

But more that each district must 'list it's trouble makers', of a certain size

on a list of a certain size and those on the list must be 'removed from the scene'

so to speak, by monthly quota, in some manner not specifically delineated,

but wink, wink, nod, nod, do what you want.

And here are the speeches of our uber-bosses as guidance to

what might be acceptable methods...

We know the out-come.

Edited February 28, 2009 by animatic

[bungy007]

surely any prosecution should be of those police that decided to include them on the list

People who thought up this gruesome policy of killing suspects on the lists should be prosecuted first. Low ranking officials had quotas to meet, a certain number of people needed to be on the lists and certain number of people needed to be killed or your job was on the chopping block.

As I recall quotas were also issued to Provincial govenors who were threantened with being moved to an inactive job if they failed to meet the required number of murders designated to their provinces. all of this was written in both the Nation and the Bangkok Post. Why haven't those govenors been bought to book as part of this horrific crime against Thailand's people?

Cheers John for straightening out the thread topic - I thought I'd missed something and the whole topic had been changed!

I don't think it was so crudely stated as murders per district.

But more that each district must 'list it's trouble makers', of a ceretain size

and those on the list must be 'removed from the scene' so to speak'

by monthly quota, in some manner not specifically delineated,

but wink wink nod nod, do what you want.

And here are the speeches of our uber-bosses as guidance to what might be acceptable,

We know the out-come.

Yes you'd be spot on there. Who would have the gonads to print 'murders' at the time of this rampage? Having said that, it was made clear that the govenors needed to meet the execution quotas or risk being moved out of office and away from the trough! There can be little more motivating to a Thai than the threat of cutting them off from their income/connections!

[sriracha john]

Thaworn to look into drug war killings

Deputy Interior Minister Thaworn Senneam is promising to look into questionable extra-judicial killings during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs that claimed over 2,500 lives six years ago.

Mr Thaworn said he would see if the killings were connected to the former prime minister.

''Many parties viewed that Pol Lt-Col Thaksin Shinawatra was behind the orders [of the killings]. I guarantee that if evidence proves the connection, legal action will be taken. This government will return justice to every party,'' Mr Thaworn said in Nakhon Si Thammarat yesterday.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...ug-war-killings

[jayboy]

Thaworn to look into drug war killings

Deputy Interior Minister Thaworn Senneam is promising to look into questionable extra-judicial killings during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs that claimed over 2,500 lives six years ago.

Mr Thaworn said he would see if the killings were connected to the former prime minister.

''Many parties viewed that Pol Lt-Col Thaksin Shinawatra was behind the orders [of the killings]. I guarantee that if evidence proves the connection, legal action will be taken. This government will return justice to every party,'' Mr Thaworn said in Nakhon Si Thammarat yesterday.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...ug-war-killings

Khun Abhisit at his recent Oxford talk also mentioned that these crimes would not be overlooked which was very welcome.

However Thaworn's comment as reported puzzled me a little not least because what a defence lawyer could make out of it.He appears to be justifying all the paranoia of the Thaksinistas by stating legal action will only be taken if evidence proves the Thaksin connection.Surely it's better to have an open ended enquiry and as a consequence seek legal action against those responsible.It's inconceivable that others were not involved.What is more in a trial/enquiry, assuming it's not rigged, there will inevitably be examination of who provided overt or covert support.

[hammered]

The international media when interviewing Thaksin seem to give him a free pass on this subject. Maybe Abhisit highlighting it will mena it starts quite rightly to get raised in Thaksin interviews especially when he refers to democracy.

[Journalist]

^^The killings were only illegal and actionable if Thaksin ordered them.

If someone else was involved in the process of green-lighting the slayings - and that person is still in 'play', then this entire issue is a no-no.

Remember: there are only ever war criminals on the losing side.

[hammered]

^^The killings were only illegal and actionable if Thaksin ordered them.

If someone else was involved in the process of green-lighting the slayings - and that person is still in 'play', then this entire issue is a no-no.

Remember: there are only ever war criminals on the losing side.

Whatever the politcal point surely journalists should question someone who claims to be a democrat and yet oversaw the biggest human rights abuse in recent Thai history. The number of dead is close to the number claimed in the official Chilean report into Pinochets death squads.

By international standards the head of governmennt bears ultimate reponsibility for government policies.

Thaksin is responsible for this and yet constantly gets a free pass from an international journalist corps admittedly discredited by their willingness to cheerlead the gulf war and various other littel embarrassments. Hwoever, one hopes sometimes for a higher standard. Surely exposing mass murder at everyu opportunity would be such a case.

Of course there are only war criminals on a losing side - the just following orders defence worked well in the case of the Chegnogne massacre - however in spite of Thaksins constant use of the description "civil war" there is actually no war in Thailand just a poltical battle and supporters of the ex-PM seem to be doing well enough getting their story out, and both sides seem to be trying to revise histroy to their viewpoint. However, dont journalists have a different duty or are they just pawns to peddle convenietns myths, memes and tired old politcal lines these days? I would be interested to hear what a journalist thought on this If indeed we can believe the labels people give themselves on anonymous web boards.

[jumnien]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings. Indeed, a full indictment of the current administration is warranted over this matter in addition to previous administrations.

[jayboy]

^^The killings were only illegal and actionable if Thaksin ordered them.

If someone else was involved in the process of green-lighting the slayings - and that person is still in 'play', then this entire issue is a no-no.

Remember: there are only ever war criminals on the losing side.

Whatever the politcal point surely journalists should question someone who claims to be a democrat and yet oversaw the biggest human rights abuse in recent Thai history. The number of dead is close to the number claimed in the official Chilean report into Pinochets death squads.

By international standards the head of governmennt bears ultimate reponsibility for government policies.

Thaksin is responsible for this and yet constantly gets a free pass from an international journalist corps admittedly discredited by their willingness to cheerlead the gulf war and various other littel embarrassments. Hwoever, one hopes sometimes for a higher standard. Surely exposing mass murder at everyu opportunity would be such a case.

Of course there are only war criminals on a losing side - the just following orders defence worked well in the case of the Chegnogne massacre - however in spite of Thaksins constant use of the description "civil war" there is actually no war in Thailand just a poltical battle and supporters of the ex-PM seem to be doing well enough getting their story out, and both sides seem to be trying to revise histroy to their viewpoint. However, dont journalists have a different duty or are they just pawns to peddle convenietns myths, memes and tired old politcal lines these days? I would be interested to hear what a journalist thought on this If indeed we can believe the labels people give themselves on anonymous web boards.

Let's be honest for a moment.The problem with prosecuting the drugs war charges is the huge popularity the programme had with most Thais, including support from some of the most influential people in the country.That doesn't condone it but it places the delay in moving forward with charges against Thaksin in some kind of context.Anyway it wasn't mass murder and to describe it in this way doesn't help your cause (which actually is mine too)

On the other major human rights issue, the Tak Bai massacre there is a similar constraint given the refusa of the Thai army to investigate and punish its own human right abuses.Abhisit has made the right noises but so far zero action.

[Plus]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings

At that time PAD didn't even exist, let alone was responsible for drug war. Democrats were the opposition party, why whould it be responsible for government policies?

Oh, I know, it's in the name of neutrality and balance. It's like for every executed criminal there must be one innocent civilian put to death, too. Otherewise there's no democracy, no balance - why should conivicts suffer more than the rest of the population. Is it fair that only convicts spend time in jail or get executed?

[hammered]

^^The killings were only illegal and actionable if Thaksin ordered them.

If someone else was involved in the process of green-lighting the slayings - and that person is still in 'play', then this entire issue is a no-no.

Remember: there are only ever war criminals on the losing side.

Whatever the politcal point surely journalists should question someone who claims to be a democrat and yet oversaw the biggest human rights abuse in recent Thai history. The number of dead is close to the number claimed in the official Chilean report into Pinochets death squads.

By international standards the head of governmennt bears ultimate reponsibility for government policies.

Thaksin is responsible for this and yet constantly gets a free pass from an international journalist corps admittedly discredited by their willingness to cheerlead the gulf war and various other littel embarrassments. Hwoever, one hopes sometimes for a higher standard. Surely exposing mass murder at everyu opportunity would be such a case.

Of course there are only war criminals on a losing side - the just following orders defence worked well in the case of the Chegnogne massacre - however in spite of Thaksins constant use of the description "civil war" there is actually no war in Thailand just a poltical battle and supporters of the ex-PM seem to be doing well enough getting their story out, and both sides seem to be trying to revise histroy to their viewpoint. However, dont journalists have a different duty or are they just pawns to peddle convenietns myths, memes and tired old politcal lines these days? I would be interested to hear what a journalist thought on this If indeed we can believe the labels people give themselves on anonymous web boards.

Let's be honest for a moment.The problem with prosecuting the drugs war charges is the huge popularity the programme had with most Thais, including support from some of the most influential people in the country.That doesn't condone it but it places the delay in moving forward with charges against Thaksin in some kind of context.Anyway it wasn't mass murder and to describe it in this way doesn't help your cause (which actually is mine too)

On the other major human rights issue, the Tak Bai massacre there is a similar constraint given the refusa of the Thai army to investigate and punish its own human right abuses.Abhisit has made the right noises but so far zero action.

But none of that should effect international journalists from raising this issue when questioning Thaksin as he speaks about democracy. Indeed it is a question that goes to the heart of is Thaksin a supporter of democracy.

I am not commenting on whether it will ever be prosecuted or not but a willingness of so called professional journos to ignore a relevant question.

[jayboy]

But none of that should effect international journalists from raising this issue when questioning Thaksin as he speaks about democracy. Indeed it is a question that goes to the heart of is Thaksin a supporter of democracy.

I am not commenting on whether it will ever be prosecuted or not but a willingness of so called professional journos to ignore a relevant question.

I agree with you.However it would help if the current Thai Government takes up these human rights issues seriously.That means bringing both army and police to account.Let's see whether Abhisit's words are empty or not.

[hammered]

But none of that should effect international journalists from raising this issue when questioning Thaksin as he speaks about democracy. Indeed it is a question that goes to the heart of is Thaksin a supporter of democracy.

I am not commenting on whether it will ever be prosecuted or not but a willingness of so called professional journos to ignore a relevant question.

I agree with you.However it would help if the current Thai Government takes up these human rights issues seriously.That means bringing both army and police to account.Let's see whether Abhisit's words are empty or not.

It is going to be an interesting time. If the country is a lot calmer as Chang Noi argues and if the economy doesnt hit bottom then Abhisit will be in a lot stronger position. Then we will see what he really is. If the economy collapses or the calm returns to a storm then I doubt even with a will anything will be done about human rights.

I still await journos to ask Thaksin the question about the drugs war though;) They do seem to be doing a better job of questioning Abhisit right now.

[jayboy]

But none of that should effect international journalists from raising this issue when questioning Thaksin as he speaks about democracy. Indeed it is a question that goes to the heart of is Thaksin a supporter of democracy.

I am not commenting on whether it will ever be prosecuted or not but a willingness of so called professional journos to ignore a relevant question.

I agree with you.However it would help if the current Thai Government takes up these human rights issues seriously.That means bringing both army and police to account.Let's see whether Abhisit's words are empty or not.

It is going to be an interesting time. If the country is a lot calmer as Chang Noi argues and if the economy doesnt hit bottom then Abhisit will be in a lot stronger position. Then we will see what he really is. If the economy collapses or the calm returns to a storm then I doubt even with a will anything will be done about human rights.

I still await journos to ask Thaksin the question about the drugs war though;) They do seem to be doing a better job of questioning Abhisit right now.

Slightly off topic I just looked at Abhisit's performance at Oxford on Youtube -quite brilliant and in the course of which he made mincemeat of Giles who was thorougly skewered though without rudeness.It just shows that intelligence,charm and civilised values can go a long way in making friends.We can get too caught up in the New Mandala view of Thai politics, interesting though it sometimes is.Abhisit's definitely making good progress: let's hope it doesn't come horribly unstuck for economic reasons.

[animatic]

^^The killings were only illegal and actionable if Thaksin ordered them.

If someone else was involved in the process of green-lighting the slayings - and that person is still in 'play', then this entire issue is a no-no.

Remember: there are only ever war criminals on the losing side.

Ah,

but sometimes the winning side prosecutes some of it's own

for war crimes to maintain a good image. Even the cleanest winner at war,

has some loose cannons of it's own to deal with.

Certainly the winning side rewrites history

and locks up, or more, the worst offenders of their opposition.

[hammered]

But none of that should effect international journalists from raising this issue when questioning Thaksin as he speaks about democracy. Indeed it is a question that goes to the heart of is Thaksin a supporter of democracy.

I am not commenting on whether it will ever be prosecuted or not but a willingness of so called professional journos to ignore a relevant question.

I agree with you.However it would help if the current Thai Government takes up these human rights issues seriously.That means bringing both army and police to account.Let's see whether Abhisit's words are empty or not.

It is going to be an interesting time. If the country is a lot calmer as Chang Noi argues and if the economy doesnt hit bottom then Abhisit will be in a lot stronger position. Then we will see what he really is. If the economy collapses or the calm returns to a storm then I doubt even with a will anything will be done about human rights.

I still await journos to ask Thaksin the question about the drugs war though;) They do seem to be doing a better job of questioning Abhisit right now.

Slightly off topic I just looked at Abhisit's performance at Oxford on Youtube -quite brilliant and in the course of which he made mincemeat of Giles who was thorougly skewered though without rudeness.It just shows that intelligence,charm and civilised values can go a long way in making friends.We can get too caught up in the New Mandala view of Thai politics, interesting though it sometimes is.Abhisit's definitely making good progress: let's hope it doesn't come horribly unstuck for economic reasons.

That too was my impression of Abhisit at Oxford. He is a lot sharper than his critics give him credit for. The economy could destroy just about any government worldwide if it it reaches the depths some predict although I reamin to be convinced that the more dire predictions are accurate.

Giles judgements recently seem to have been "well off". At the end of the day the Thai studies field is so small and if I dare say so filled mostly with lightweights that the analysis and view they have remains too limited. Sovereign Myth occasionally has a different take on things to NM although like Chang Noi and McCargo the forays into comment tend to be very infrequent which is maybe why NM's own tone tends to dominate. Chang Noi has a good bit up about Thaksin now and the Nation also has a nice peice on Newin. I posted the links elsewhere so wont repeat them here.

Linking this back to the topic. I wonder if Abhisit's mention of the drug war will actually result in anything?

[animatic]

I read some of the Oxford interaction.

Yes, Mark cleaned his clock.

Did Giles REALLY bring a red clapper to the meeting?

That's just round the twist.

[sriracha john]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings. Indeed, a full indictment of the current administration is warranted over this matter in addition to previous administrations.

First things first... a top down approach starting with Thaksin works best.

[jumnien]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings. Indeed, a full indictment of the current administration is warranted over this matter in addition to previous administrations.

First things first... a top down approach starting with Thaksin works best.

Deal with the cancer first, remove Abhisit, keep Thaksin in quarantine, and go ahead with elections!

[mc2]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings. Indeed, a full indictment of the current administration is warranted over this matter in addition to previous administrations.

First things first... a top down approach starting with Thaksin works best.

The ones running the government are arguably of more immediate concern I would think. We might be waiting years before anything happens to Thaksin (holed up in Dubai) meanwhile the other perps are at large.

Besides, a top down approach clearly wouldn't work, there is enough evidence to suggest there was at least implicit support from all corners of thai society, from the very very top to the bottom.

[Oberkommando]

I read some of the Oxford interaction.

Yes, Mark cleaned his clock.

Abhisit exposed himself for the snake he really is. From downright lies to fudging the issue throughout the speech.

Eloquent as he is, he can't fool most of us.

[sriracha john]

The PAD/Dems have not prosecuted any of their men, military and otherwise, who were responsible for the drug war killings. Indeed, a full indictment of the current administration is warranted over this matter in addition to previous administrations.

First things first... a top down approach starting with Thaksin works best.

The ones running the government are arguably of more immediate concern I would think. We might be waiting years before anything happens to Thaksin (holed up in Dubai) meanwhile the other perps are at large.

Besides, a top down approach clearly wouldn't work, there is enough evidence to suggest there was at least implicit support from all corners of thai society, from the very very top to the bottom.

Thaksin, as the top leader, head of the government and who initiated the program of mass murder needs to be the first indicted.