Accidently Stepping On Thai Toes

[John K]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I know that in many cases Thais will take action against a person who causes them to lose face if the reasons are not true. For example if person x is said to be involved in an activity but is really not involved in that activity. I have heard that the accusers in some cases are not around anymore anywhere.

Even the Thais will take significant measures to make sure they lower themselves if they accidently cause another to lose face. In recent memory and I think there is a thread on this in the news section, about a news paper editor who resigned after allowing something to be printed that was not true and cause another to lose face.

So to be helpful to everyone who is in Thailand or plans to visit I hope this thread will be a good source of information.

[Thaiboxer]

Face is a bigger issue with some crowds than with others. I used to teach high school kids and they didn't hesitate to make me lose face in front of the class by behaving badly. I reciprocated by making them lose face in front of their friends. We've all heard stories about people getting into big trouble for causing someone here to lose face but you've got to look at it from other angles; most people won't take extreme measures against somebody over a loss of face. However, if you're around the wrong crowd and there's alcohol involved it could be very different.

[John K]

Yes point taken but my reference about the extreme measures would be in retaliation to a lie or insinuation that had no basis. That would have a much higher percentage of a violent retaliation should the accuser not make significant and satisfying atonements for the action.

[Thaiboxer]

I see what you mean; causing one to lose face without a reason could definitely provoke some sort of violent retaliation as opposed to making one lose face if they made you lose it first.

This is one reason I avoid groups of Thai men who are drinking...even if they make a friendly offer for me to join them. Many Thai men behave violently while under the influence of alcohol and may attack somebody at the drop of a hat.

[chownah]

Never disagree with anyone.

Chownah

[Neeranam]

Never disagree with anyone.

Never retaliate.

Be a 'doormat'!?

[kmart]

Never disagree with anyone.

Never retaliate.

Be a 'doormat'!?

Sometimes, you don't have much of a choice... When dealing with the cultural deficiency known as "face." Be prepared to acknowledge that the size of someone's ego may be inversely proportional to their intelligence or ability.

[markuk]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

[Donz]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

Lets just hope you dont pick the wrong one hey.

How does common sense know who is connected with a mafia?

[John K]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

Markuk, I guess some people like living on the edge. I have never seen face loss turn out good. Someone gets hurt along the way emotionally or financially at the least. Yes you need to take care, you don’t know how their day went before you saw them. It could be a very rude reply.

Edited November 13, 2006 by John K

[markuk]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

Markuk, I guess some people like living on the edge. I have never seen face loss turn out good. Someone gets hurt along the way emotionally or financially at the least. Yes you need to be care, you don’t know how their day went before you saw them. It could be a very rude reply.

yes i understand that, just i am not particularly politically correct / sensitive and i hate having to pussy foot around matters.

[womble]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

I see your really adapting to the culture......

You know it's people acting like this that result in us often being treated badly for no reason.

Your actions may cause a Thai who has had little dealings with farang to dislike them for no reason other than they were unlucky enough to come into contact with you.

[chownah]

Always smile....always.....if you have a difficult time with this consider cosmetic surgery.

Chownah

[popshirt]

Never disagree with anyone.

Chownah

Always smile....always.....if you have a difficult time with this consider cosmetic surgery.

Chownah

Thanks Chownah! You have put profound and useful wisdom in the simplest terms!

[Neeranam]

I know that in many cases Thais will take action against a person who causes them to lose face if the reasons are not true. For example if person x is said to be involved in an activity but is really not involved in that activity. I have heard that the accusers in some cases are not around anymore anywhere.

The same could be said of the people where I come from -it's not just a Thai reaction. People in Leith have diasappeared as they surely have in New York, Tokyo and Drumnadrochit.

[GuestHouse]

Good manners are universal.

Good behaviour is universal.

For the most part if you behave well, moderate your language and maintain good manners you'll not have a problem.

From that base line you can then make an assessment of whether you really have offended someone or, as is often the case, they are just out looking for a reason to make and issue with you.

My personal obesrvation is very few foreigners have problems with Thais (extremely few).

Those that do are behaving in a way that would get them into problems back home and conversely when ever I hear a Thai complaining that a foreigner has upset Thai Culture, it is almost invariably not the case (A Thai might have behaved exactly the same without the accusation).

[markuk]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

I see your really adapting to the culture......

You know it's people acting like this that result in us often being treated badly for no reason.

Your actions may cause a Thai who has had little dealings with farang to dislike them for no reason other than they were unlucky enough to come into contact with you.

not a lot to do with adapting to the culture, i live and work here, i was sent here - it is not my choice, i go where i am needed however i do enjoy thailand.

It is of no difference to me whether i live here or another country, its a contract for 2-4 years and thats it, i have no intention of adapting to the culture as i will move on. If they cannot understand straight forward actions in which people are held accountable then i will not pussy foot around them on the basis they may lose face.

May sound hard but its fact.

[chownah]

Never make an agreement that involves another person doing something.

Chownah

[helicoptor]

Never disagree with anyone.

I dont agree with that

[mosquitoman]

i live and work here, i was sent here - it is not my choice, i go where i am needed

I sincerely hope it is your choice, I trust that you decide who you work for and therefore where you are going to go, unless you are a slave.

MM

[chownah]

When playing poker always lose.

Chownah

[Galong]

Always smile....always.....if you have a difficult time with this consider cosmetic surgery.

Chownah

While you're kissing his hindside, why don't you give him a reach-around too? Geez, grow some nuts man.

I usually just hand 'em a Western Small-sized condom. That usually shut 'em up.... innit.

[SamuiJens]

Edited

Edited November 13, 2006 by SamuiJens

[SamuiJens]

Living in Thailand I and I am sure others just how important it is not to make Thais lose face. I have been asked on some occasions how to avoid accidently doing that. The only thing I could think of is to create a list of things and or experiences on how a Thai may or did lose face.

I tend to go out of my way to make them lose face, much more fun!! use your common sense who you do it with though!!

I see your really adapting to the culture......

You know it's people acting like this that result in us often being treated badly for no reason.

Your actions may cause a Thai who has had little dealings with farang to dislike them for no reason other than they were unlucky enough to come into contact with you.

Womble, this is so typic, since there are many tourist that think that they're better than their 3rd world hosts and feeling superior, and of course won't go to the Thais culture, rather screw their system. Since they are only going to be her for a week or 2, they think <deleted> it! Which as you say makes the farang living here become disliked.

[Donz]

Always smile....always.....if you have a difficult time with this consider cosmetic surgery.

Chownah

While you're kissing his hindside, why don't you give him a reach-around too? Geez, grow some nuts man.

I usually just hand 'em a Western Small-sized condom. That usually shut 'em up.... innit.

So you give him one of yours

And wouldnt it be strange to offer a stranger a condom, you might be sending out a wrong message, well unless you swing that way that is

[mosquitoman]

Good manners are universal.

Good behaviour is universal.

Well said,I totally agree, makes life so much more pleasent.

It is of no difference to me whether i live here or another country, its a contract for 2-4 years and thats it, i have no intention of adapting to the culture as i will move on. If they cannot understand straight forward actions in which people are held accountable then i will not pussy foot around them on the basis they may lose face.

This is so sad,

Have you ever read the book "How to win friends and influence people"?

I am sure you are missing out on some fantastic experiences during your stay in Thailand due to this attitude

Furtermore I would suspect your day to day living would be smoother and more enjoyble were you to take on board the local culture and mind set.

As the old saying goes , When in rome.................

MM

[AlexLah]

What I did when I came to Thailand is first have a meeting with the whole team and pointed out why I was here. To help them get more bizz and as a result more Thai people could be employed and they could have a stable future, a career within the company and better salary when they perform as agreed.

I also asked them to help me understand the culture but I also told them they have to adept some Western ways of working as they are working for a multinational company.

Then I asked them to tell me whenever I made some cultural mistake and I also told them that I will tell and help them whenever they make a mistake.

I explained the good thing about making mistakes and that we actually learn from that.

I made a few more statements and what I also did is ask if they agreed or not, if not I asked them to explain to me why, (we always came to a compromise).

So for my working enviroment all seems pretty clear and I can see small improvement day by day.

One of the best things was that during an MT meeting the GM actually admitted he did something wrong. So I praised him extensively for that so he actually gained face.

When dealing with customers I found a way to actually get sort of direct but not in a provocotive way and it is much appreciated.

I have learned that it is better not to ask a customer what he/she thinks about the recommendations for improvement you have just given but instead I tell them that their facilities look great and that I would like to show and share with them some ideas to make it an even greater place.

Yes a bit of pussy talk but hey, if that can give my company better sales, who cares.

Another thing. If for example a customer has a product complaint that was obviously caused by the customer using the product in a wrong way.

I tell (or my team): Dear Madam/Sir, you know, I have told your workers how to use the product and I did give all of them a simple manual on how to use it but I did not check a few months after if they still know.

So that is what I did wrong please accept my apologies, we are people and people make mistakes.

Will you allow me to get your workers together and explain again how to use the product correctly and this time I will make sure I will check if they all understood and will follow up everytime I visit.

So that together with some other sweet talk will mostly keep all happy.

I have had a few foreigners working in Asia that did not want to change and adept and yes within one year I just send them home. Same for some local general managers that did not want to change and implement some western ideas.

As said smile a lot, learn some local lingo and ask if they can help you learn about local culture.

Alex

[mosquitoman]

What I did when I came to Thailand is first have a meeting with the whole team and pointed out why I was here. To help them get more bizz and as a result more Thai people could be employed and they could have a stable future, a career within the company and better salary when they perform as agreed.

I also asked them to help me understand the culture but I also told them they have to adept some Western ways of working as they are working for a multinational company.

Then I asked them to tell me whenever I made some cultural mistake and I also told them that I will tell and help them whenever they make a mistake.

I explained the good thing about making mistakes and that we actually learn from that.

I made a few more statements and what I also did is ask if they agreed or not, if not I asked them to explain to me why, (we always came to a compromise).

So for my working enviroment all seems pretty clear and I can see small improvement day by day.

One of the best things was that during an MT meeting the GM actually admitted he did something wrong. So I praised him extensively for that so he actually gained face.

When dealing with customers I found a way to actually get sort of direct but not in a provocotive way and it is much appreciated.

I have learned that it is better not to ask a customer what he/she thinks about the recommendations for improvement you have just given but instead I tell them that their facilities look great and that I would like to show and share with them some ideas to make it an even greater place.

Yes a bit of pussy talk but hey, if that can give my company better sales, who cares.

Another thing. If for example a customer has a product complaint that was obviously caused by the customer using the product in a wrong way.

I tell (or my team): Dear Madam/Sir, you know, I have told your workers how to use the product and I did give all of them a simple manual on how to use it but I did not check a few months after if they still know.

So that is what I did wrong please accept my apologies, we are people and people make mistakes.

Will you allow me to get your workers together and explain again how to use the product correctly and this time I will make sure I will check if they all understood and will follow up everytime I visit.

So that together with some other sweet talk will mostly keep all happy.

I have had a few foreigners working in Asia that did not want to change and adept and yes within one year I just send them home. Same for some local general managers that did not want to change and implement some western ideas.

As said smile a lot, learn some local lingo and ask if they can help you learn about local culture.

Alex

Well done Alex,

You have obviously read "How to win friends and influence people"

MM

[AlexLah]

Uuuuuurrrrrr sorry I did not.

[John K]

Very good post alexlah, well though out.