So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[MissAndry]

Democracy can only work if voters are given accurate information about what they are voting for, and if those making promises/claims can be held to account after being elected.

My youngest daughter voted leave, and when I called her last night I asked why. She told me that she had honestly believed that the £350m/week the UK is said to send to Europe could be better spent on public services in the UK. Like most voters, I don't think she was motivated by lofty concepts like sovereignty or the Single European Act.

I asked how she felt now. She said 'conned'. The Brexit supporters are either not taking about the £350m, saying it was a 'mistake' (Farage) or 'up to £100m might be available' (Gove).

Since all the key Brexit players are now 'disappearing into the woodwork' I guess no one can be held to account in any way.

Cameron and the Conservative party are accountable.

They were the ones who called the referendum, they were the ones who failed to plan for either vote.

It's not as if they were overthrown in a coup, their job was to govern, but they failed and then bailed.

How are they accountable?

Don't vote Conservative in the next election.

Edited July 6, 2016 by MissAndry

[cumgranosalum]

Democracy can only work if voters are given accurate information about what they are voting for, and if those making promises/claims can be held to account after being elected.

My youngest daughter voted leave, and when I called her last night I asked why. She told me that she had honestly believed that the £350m/week the UK is said to send to Europe could be better spent on public services in the UK. Like most voters, I don't think she was motivated by lofty concepts like sovereignty or the Single European Act.

I asked how she felt now. She said 'conned'. The Brexit supporters are either not taking about the £350m, saying it was a 'mistake' (Farage) or 'up to £100m might be available' (Gove).

Since all the key Brexit players are now 'disappearing into the woodwork' I guess no one can be held to account in any way.

Cameron and the Conservative party are accountable.

They were the ones who called the referendum, they were the ones who failed to plan for either vote.

It's not as if they were overthrown in a coup, their job was to govern, but they failed and then bailed.

How are they accountable?

Don't vote Conservative in the next election.

This is why the referendum was such a daft idea - it permanently tries to change the country - who you vote for in an election from now on has nothing to do with it.

It was a lose/lose situation for remain campaign from the start - if they won nothing changes and the leave continue...the only ones who could actually WIN were Brexit - for Brexit, it's like tossing a coin when you can only win or stay the same.

then when they won rthey had /have no plan...why should remain have a plan? They voted to remain......the truth is the referendum should be discounted and let parliament decide about membership after an election...then you can decide who to vote for......

[HauptmannUK]

Cameron and the Conservative party are accountable.

They were the ones who called the referendum, they were the ones who failed to plan for either vote.

It's not as if they were overthrown in a coup, their job was to govern, but they failed and then bailed.

How are they accountable?

Don't vote Conservative in the next election.

Much as I dislike Cameron, I think he made the right decision to step down. He did warn the country, very strongly, about the dangers of a Leave vote, and it seems that many people didn't accept his argument. I don't think he could continue as PM under those circumstances and I believe it was Farage himself who said Cameron would be 'toast' if leave won.

I am not sure how my not voting Conservative at the next election would reflect my position. My Conservative MP was a strong Remain supporter (as are the majority of Tory MP's).

[HauptmannUK]

Leaders have a responsibility to the people they wish to lead but the voters also have responsibilities as well as rights. Informing themselves and thinking carefully about the issues before they vote is basic - and essential for any democracy to work properly.

Otherwise everyone in The West is just living in Cloud-cuckoo Land.

Unfortunately 'democracy' isn't that simple. In the case of the Brexit vote there was a great deal of press propaganda in favour of Leave - with outright lies being printed in some newspapers. People rely disproportionately on the press as a source of information. The Murdoch press, in particular, has been very anti-EU as a consequence of EU legislation thwarting Rupert's plans in the UK and Europe.

Referenda are a very 'blunt instrument;. Let's say next Thursday we are to have a referendum on re-introducing capital punishment for murder (a lot of press have been calling for this). Consider the following two scenario's:

1. On the day before the referendum a child is abducted and murdered in particularly gruesome circumstances and this is splashed across the front page of every newspaper with the 'Sun Says' ' Vote YES to capital punishment'..

2. On the day before the referendum a convicted child murderer has his conviction overturned because new evidence has come to light showing that he could not possibly have committed the murder.

Which way do you think the referendum result would go following scenario's 1 and 2?

It is for this reason that we elect representatives who have the time and resources to study important issues and make decisions for us accordingly. We can elect representatives who broadly reflect our outlook on life. Realistically most voters are too busy with their own lives and don't have the opportunity to study important legislation in the required detail to make truly informed decisions and understand the consequences - hence we 'delegate' our democracy in this way. In much the same way the 'unelected' representatives in Brussels are actually appointed into their positions by the people we have elected, so in that sense the EU is not 'undemocratic' in the way that the press often claim. In fact the EU is vastly more democratic than our own system of government, which retains unelected/unappointed hereditary peers.

I know some people think true democracy is where everybody can continually vote on every government decision. That is of course now a realistic proposition with the Internet and instant electronic voting. However it would be a recipe for disaster - electronic mob rule. We would probably find ourselves holding public executions and declaring war on half a dozen different countries within the space of a week.

[mfd101]

Leaders have a responsibility to the people they wish to lead but the voters also have responsibilities as well as rights. Informing themselves and thinking carefully about the issues before they vote is basic - and essential for any democracy to work properly.

Otherwise everyone in The West is just living in Cloud-cuckoo Land.

Unfortunately 'democracy' isn't that simple. In the case of the Brexit vote there was a great deal of press propaganda in favour of Leave - with outright lies being printed in some newspapers. People rely disproportionately on the press as a source of information. The Murdoch press, in particular, has been very anti-EU as a consequence of EU legislation thwarting Rupert's plans in the UK and Europe.

Referenda are a very 'blunt instrument;. Let's say next Thursday we are to have a referendum on re-introducing capital punishment for murder (a lot of press have been calling for this). Consider the following two scenario's:

1. On the day before the referendum a child is abducted and murdered in particularly gruesome circumstances and this is splashed across the front page of every newspaper with the 'Sun Says' ' Vote YES to capital punishment'..

2. On the day before the referendum a convicted child murderer has his conviction overturned because new evidence has come to light showing that he could not possibly have committed the murder.

Which way do you think the referendum result would go following scenario's 1 and 2?

It is for this reason that we elect representatives who have the time and resources to study important issues and make decisions for us accordingly. We can elect representatives who broadly reflect our outlook on life. Realistically most voters are too busy with their own lives and don't have the opportunity to study important legislation in the required detail to make truly informed decisions and understand the consequences - hence we 'delegate' our democracy in this way. In much the same way the 'unelected' representatives in Brussels are actually appointed into their positions by the people we have elected, so in that sense the EU is not 'undemocratic' in the way that the press often claim. In fact the EU is vastly more democratic than our own system of government, which retains unelected/unappointed hereditary peers.

I know some people think true democracy is where everybody can continually vote on every government decision. That is of course now a realistic proposition with the Internet and instant electronic voting. However it would be a recipe for disaster - electronic mob rule. We would probably find ourselves holding public executions and declaring war on half a dozen different countries within the space of a week.

Well, there's no end of excuses - life is difficult, we're all busy, we live now in huge and hugely complex societies, that's why we have representative democracy ... But even in a representative democracy, the assumption for basic democracy to work is that the electors inform themselves and think rationally about issues. otherwise we might as well just toss a coin.

And what is a referendum if not the only practical form of direct democracy that remains, with a simple Yes or No answer. If people can't even manage that, then perhaps 'Western' countries should adopt the Singaporean model of intelligent autocracy (which seems to work very well, albeit at municipal level).

I note in passing too that the Swiss - those rich boring people - seem to do direct democracy quite well even now!

[MissAndry]

It is for this reason that we elect representatives who have the time and resources to study important issues and make decisions for us accordingly.

You mean representatives like Farage, Boris, Cameron and Corbyn?

I'm sure that will work!

Typical decision they make, 'do this because it's best for Britain' Vs "do this because I'll get a seat on the board later'

Which to choose?

Edited July 6, 2016 by MissAndry

[cumgranosalum]

Some Brexiteers still don't gettit.....

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/

Edited July 6, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[HauptmannUK]

It is for this reason that we elect representatives who have the time and resources to study important issues and make decisions for us accordingly.

You mean representatives like Farage, Boris, Cameron and Corbyn?

I'm sure that will work!

Well, let's leave aside Farage (he has never been an MP, although he did try seven times...). But yes, it does work to a large extent. Like most things its not a perfect system, but its probably the 'least worst option'. Rather like my attitude to the EU - lots of things wrong with it that we should have worked to correct - but better than the alternative we are now confronted with.

[cumgranosalum]

Farage? - As an MP in UK he was unelectable that means no constituency would give him the time if day - he was an MEP but of course there has was kept in check....so he basically latched on to the "unconstitutional" idea of a referendum, knowing that he couldn't actually lose on that wicket. but remember he wasn't part of the official leave campaign - that's why a lot of TV programs wouldn't have him on.

He now sees as do people like BJ that staying on now would be a political disaster for him so he, like many Brexiteers is going to ground........

[cumgranosalum]

Farage? - As an MP in UK he was unelectable that means no constituency would give him the time if day - he was an MEP but of course there has was kept in check....so he basically latched on to the "unconstitutional" idea of a referendum, knowing that he couldn't actually lose on that wicket. but remember he wasn't part of the official leave campaign - that's why a lot of TV programs wouldn't have him on.

He now sees as do people like BJ that staying on now would be a political disaster for him so he, like many Brexiteers is going to ground........

[elliss]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Edited July 6, 2016 by elliss

[salavan]

Who benefited?

Xenophobes, racists, people wanting to buy GBP.

So are you saying that all the 52% of people who voted out are xenophobes and racist, it says a lot about you!

not all 52% are racist xenophobic a large percentage are morons

[cumgranosalum]

Who benefited?

Xenophobes, racists, people wanting to buy GBP.

So are you saying that all the 52% of people who voted out are xenophobes and racist, it says a lot about you!

not all 52% are racist xenophobic a large percentage are morons

As said before -by Will Self "Not all brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers"

I think a lot of Brexiteers are now finding it very uncomfortable as they realise who voted with them and probably actually tipped the balance.

So the comment about Xenophobes, racists and people wanting to buy GBP stands - and it seems to me that to suggesting it encompasses all Brexiteers is a deliberate, mischievous misinterpretation of the comment.

[HauptmannUK]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Yes, if only someone could have foreseen this and warned us before the referendum.... like economists or the Governor of the BoE or the Chancellor or someone....

[cumgranosalum]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Yes, if only someone could have foreseen this and warned us before the referendum.... like economists or the Governor of the BoE or the Chancellor or someone....

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

[MissAndry]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

[cumgranosalum]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

Tripe! -You need to take a reality check and then keep looking at the markets for the next 2 to 5 years.

[vogie]

Who benefited?

Xenophobes, racists, people wanting to buy GBP.

So are you saying that all the 52% of people who voted out are xenophobes and racist, it says a lot about you!

not all 52% are racist xenophobic a large percentage are morons

Suck it up loser. ???

[MissAndry]

I think a lot of Brexiteers are now finding it very uncomfortable as they realise who voted with them.

Hollie voted to remain, are you feeling uncomfortable?

[Ricardo]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

The FTSE 100 & 250, yes, but they're measured in 15%-devalued Pounds, aren't they.

"The Pound in your pocket is still worth as much today as it was yesterday" ... Nope, don't think so !

[Naam]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

The FTSE 100 & 250, yes, but they're measured in 15%-devalued Pounds, aren't they.

"The Pound in your pocket is still worth as much today as it was yesterday" ... Nope, don't think so !

FTSE market capitalisation approximately £ 2 trillion.

10% = £ 200,000,000,000 (£ 200 billion).

that's FTSE only, other markets/assets not considered.

[Naam]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Yes, if only someone could have foreseen this and warned us before the referendum.... like economists or the Governor of the BoE or the Chancellor or someone....

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

not equivalent but much more in dollar terms.

[NanLaew]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Yes, if only someone could have foreseen this and warned us before the referendum.... like economists or the Governor of the BoE or the Chancellor or someone....

What? And be labelled as members of 'Project Fear'?

[brexiteer]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

The FTSE 100 & 250, yes, but they're measured in 15%-devalued Pounds, aren't they.

"The Pound in your pocket is still worth as much today as it was yesterday" ... Nope, don't think so !

FTSE market capitalisation approximately £ 2 trillion.

10% = £ 200,000,000,000 (£ 200 billion).

that's FTSE only, other markets/assets not considered.

FTSE100 was at 6,284 one month ago.

Now at 6,462.

What has been 'lost' exactly ?

[Jip99]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Yes, if only someone could have foreseen this and warned us before the referendum.... like economists or the Governor of the BoE or the Chancellor or someone....

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

I guess you wanted to believe that....

[Ricardo]

FTSE100 was at 6,284 one month ago.

Now at 6,462.

What has been 'lost' exactly ?

Index of 6,284 at XRate approx 1.45 = US$ 9,112 a month ago

Index of 6,462 at XRate approx 1.29 = US$ 8,336 today

Decline US$776 is approximately 8.5% down

The numbers change from minute to minute, the principle doesn't, while the (Sterling-based) index is slightly up, the fall in the value of the Pound is much more, so anyone who's in UK-shares is significantly down following Brexit.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Ricardo

[Jip99]

The pound has now fallen by about 14% against the dollar since hitting $1.50 ahead of the referendum result.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721689

That,s only for starters , when the Red button is pushed , then there will be a serious free fall in GBP.

probably ending up on par with the euro @ 38 bht .

Mr Doomsday strikes again

Pray tell what red button you have personal knowledge of..................... oh wait!.... another wet dream...

Facts........... this year GBP/USD has traded consistently between 1.40 and 1.45 - the spikes to GBP/USD 1.50 and GBP/THB 52 were just that, artificial spikes.

Taking the rate of 1.29 now that is 13 cents lower from where we were about a month ago when we saw GBP/USD 1.42.

I make that a reduction of 10%.

I don't think that is too bad after an event that the pimps in the financial markets fought so hard to prevent.

[Naam]

FTSE100 was at 6,284 one month ago.

Now at 6,462.

What has been 'lost' exactly ?

what part of

"the FTSE is quoted in Pound Sterling, Sterling's value is down vs. other currencies"

is it you don't understand?

[cumgranosalum]

one stat I heard was that the total money wiped off the Uk markets is equivalent to ALL 40 YEARS of UK contributions to the EU.!!!???

Markets are already back to where they were.

Nothing wiped off.

More evidence of how your post is tripe.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/06/more-property-funds-suspended-as-brexit-tremors-continue-in-the-city?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=180652&subid=11137&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[HauptmannUK]

A lot of folks don't seem to grasp the magnitude of the change that has taken place. Successive UK governments, over several decades, have sought to make the UK an attractive place to invest (low taxes, flexible labour laws, light regulation etc).

At a stroke all that has been lost. The UK is probably about the least attractive place to invest in Europe right now. Sterling is at a 31 year low against the US$ and the FTSE 250 (a more accurate barometer of UK business than the 100) has suffered its biggest loss in value ever.

This is much more than a few currency speculators manipulating the currency.

The effects of all this are very wide ranging - company values (capitalisation) and dividends are lower and the cost of US$ and Euro-denominated loans is higher.

If the UK government can negotiate some kind of 'Associate Membership' of the EU, retaining access to the Single Market, then maybe things will stabilise. If, on the other hand, the UK leaves the Single Market and reverts to WTO rules then that would be 'pressing the red button'. The UK would become a hugely unattractive place to invest in the short-medium term and the GBP would fall off a cliff.