‘Scotland’s voice will be heard’ – Sturgeon vows to fight to maintain EU ties

[SgtRock]

Stunning effort in deflection.

So I will ask again.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are outdoing yourself this morning, Private.

- You post an article about the economics of an independent Scotland and claim that the writer has a point.

- I ask you to clarify which points raised meet with your assessment

- You then duck that but turn it around to ask a question that has been asked and answered so many times over the past 3 years that it has become boring

- I then asked you not to deflect the thread, but to answer my earlier question of the economics proposed in the article you posted

- You then accuse me of deflection!

Are you simply trolling this thread?

It does not matter which points raised I agree with or disagree with.

I am not ducking anything, I have nothing to duck. I said the article has made a point that I happen to agree with.

If anyone is trolling it is you.

Yet again I will ask you.

In YOUR own words explain how being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

It should be really simple and it will put the issue to bed once and for all. You are the one that constantly shouts about Scotland being Independent,

I am in favour of Scotland being Independent, not being tied to the EU.

No need to come back with yet more deflections. A simple put up or shut up will suffice.

OK, I apologise for putting you on the spot - clearly you either did not read the article you posted, or you do not have a sufficient understanding of its topic to be able to do anything other than copying and paste the link. Therefore I retract my initial question - please feel under no obligation to explain why you agree with the article.

As for your deflective question: the powers held by the Scottish Parliament are afforded to it at the discretion of Westminster, meaning that they can be withdrawn at any time through a Westminster majority. Essentially, Holyrood exists because London allows it to, but only the likelihood of public outrage is preventing those devolved powers being interfered with. The EU was built with State power in mind; Scottish devolution was not. We will see with Brexit, when Scotland refuses to amend the Scotland Act 1998, whether London has the balls to change Scots law against the will of the Scottish Parliament - and without that amendment, Brexit cannot proceed.

The EU legislates on union wide issues because its member states allow it to do so. Scotland has, currently, no right whatosever to get involved in matters of defence, international diplomacy etc. In the EU we can leave should we choose to do so; in the UK we are bound by an act of parliament. The EU provides judicial oversight on human rights issues, an area that the UK government has proven time and time again that they are willing to stomp all over. I do not trust Westminster in general, and Theresa May in particular.

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

[Laughing Gravy]

Once again Scotland has little to offer the EU. Scotland in the EU you will need the Euro and as will have the Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries. I have said I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU. Can Scotland do that? What's the reasoning for the Scots to join the EU and please don't give me the, I want to be European line. You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European. Please.

[RuamRudy]

You are outdoing yourself this morning, Private.

- You post an article about the economics of an independent Scotland and claim that the writer has a point.

- I ask you to clarify which points raised meet with your assessment

- You then duck that but turn it around to ask a question that has been asked and answered so many times over the past 3 years that it has become boring

- I then asked you not to deflect the thread, but to answer my earlier question of the economics proposed in the article you posted

- You then accuse me of deflection!

Are you simply trolling this thread?

It does not matter which points raised I agree with or disagree with.

I am not ducking anything, I have nothing to duck. I said the article has made a point that I happen to agree with.

If anyone is trolling it is you.

Yet again I will ask you.

In YOUR own words explain how being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

It should be really simple and it will put the issue to bed once and for all. You are the one that constantly shouts about Scotland being Independent,

I am in favour of Scotland being Independent, not being tied to the EU.

No need to come back with yet more deflections. A simple put up or shut up will suffice.

OK, I apologise for putting you on the spot - clearly you either did not read the article you posted, or you do not have a sufficient understanding of its topic to be able to do anything other than copying and paste the link. Therefore I retract my initial question - please feel under no obligation to explain why you agree with the article.

As for your deflective question: the powers held by the Scottish Parliament are afforded to it at the discretion of Westminster, meaning that they can be withdrawn at any time through a Westminster majority. Essentially, Holyrood exists because London allows it to, but only the likelihood of public outrage is preventing those devolved powers being interfered with. The EU was built with State power in mind; Scottish devolution was not. We will see with Brexit, when Scotland refuses to amend the Scotland Act 1998, whether London has the balls to change Scots law against the will of the Scottish Parliament - and without that amendment, Brexit cannot proceed.

The EU legislates on union wide issues because its member states allow it to do so. Scotland has, currently, no right whatosever to get involved in matters of defence, international diplomacy etc. In the EU we can leave should we choose to do so; in the UK we are bound by an act of parliament. The EU provides judicial oversight on human rights issues, an area that the UK government has proven time and time again that they are willing to stomp all over. I do not trust Westminster in general, and Theresa May in particular.

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

[Kwasaki]

Once again Scotland has little to offer the EU. Scotland in the EU you will need the Euro and as will have the Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries. I have said I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU. Can Scotland do that? What's the reasoning for the Scots to join the EU and please don't give me the, I want to be European line. You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European. Please.

You have more or less posted my take and my son in law whose Scottish would agree.

[SgtRock]

It does not matter which points raised I agree with or disagree with.

I am not ducking anything, I have nothing to duck. I said the article has made a point that I happen to agree with.

If anyone is trolling it is you.

Yet again I will ask you.

In YOUR own words explain how being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

It should be really simple and it will put the issue to bed once and for all. You are the one that constantly shouts about Scotland being Independent,

I am in favour of Scotland being Independent, not being tied to the EU.

No need to come back with yet more deflections. A simple put up or shut up will suffice.

OK, I apologise for putting you on the spot - clearly you either did not read the article you posted, or you do not have a sufficient understanding of its topic to be able to do anything other than copying and paste the link. Therefore I retract my initial question - please feel under no obligation to explain why you agree with the article.

As for your deflective question: the powers held by the Scottish Parliament are afforded to it at the discretion of Westminster, meaning that they can be withdrawn at any time through a Westminster majority. Essentially, Holyrood exists because London allows it to, but only the likelihood of public outrage is preventing those devolved powers being interfered with. The EU was built with State power in mind; Scottish devolution was not. We will see with Brexit, when Scotland refuses to amend the Scotland Act 1998, whether London has the balls to change Scots law against the will of the Scottish Parliament - and without that amendment, Brexit cannot proceed.

The EU legislates on union wide issues because its member states allow it to do so. Scotland has, currently, no right whatosever to get involved in matters of defence, international diplomacy etc. In the EU we can leave should we choose to do so; in the UK we are bound by an act of parliament. The EU provides judicial oversight on human rights issues, an area that the UK government has proven time and time again that they are willing to stomp all over. I do not trust Westminster in general, and Theresa May in particular.

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

No, you have not tried. The only thing you have tried is obfuscation and deflection.

It matters not what I agree or disagree with in the article. Due to believing that first and foremost, Scotland being a part of the EU is NOT an independent Scotland.

To answer your question. I do not believe that Scotland has the financial muscle to make a go of Independence, which is why the battle cry of being independent but a member of the EU.

Being independent is a little bit like growing up. You have to let go of the hands that hold you and make your on way.

[Jip99]

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

You should go into politics - you are full of pi55 and wind and can't answer a question.

[RuamRudy]

Once again Scotland has little to offer the EU. Scotland in the EU you will need the Euro and as will have the Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries. I have said I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU. Can Scotland do that? What's the reasoning for the Scots to join the EU and please don't give me the, I want to be European line. You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European. Please.

1) Scotland has little to offer the EU.

I don't know how you would define little or a lot, but that is a matter for Scotland and the EU to negotiate - and all signs are that Scotland would be welcome in the EU.

2) Scotland will need the Euro

There are many esteemed experts who fail to agree on this one, but if we require to adopt the euro, so be it.

3) Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries

Scottish parliamentary power is currently afforded by Westminster, and can be withdrawn at any moment. In Europe, we are free to leave at any time should we not like the way that EU wide laws are being set. As it happens, only around 9% of member states' laws are set by Brussels.

4) I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU

Along with Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland all exist solely on handouts from the UK.

Other than London, Scotland has the highest GDP per capita of any region of the UK. We are capable of balancing our books.

6) You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European

400 plus years? You need to brush up on your history. While the Union of the Crowns took place in 1603, the Act of the Union was not signed until 1707.

As for wanting to be European, see my response to point 3.

[RuamRudy]

OK, I apologise for putting you on the spot - clearly you either did not read the article you posted, or you do not have a sufficient understanding of its topic to be able to do anything other than copying and paste the link. Therefore I retract my initial question - please feel under no obligation to explain why you agree with the article.

As for your deflective question: the powers held by the Scottish Parliament are afforded to it at the discretion of Westminster, meaning that they can be withdrawn at any time through a Westminster majority. Essentially, Holyrood exists because London allows it to, but only the likelihood of public outrage is preventing those devolved powers being interfered with. The EU was built with State power in mind; Scottish devolution was not. We will see with Brexit, when Scotland refuses to amend the Scotland Act 1998, whether London has the balls to change Scots law against the will of the Scottish Parliament - and without that amendment, Brexit cannot proceed.

The EU legislates on union wide issues because its member states allow it to do so. Scotland has, currently, no right whatosever to get involved in matters of defence, international diplomacy etc. In the EU we can leave should we choose to do so; in the UK we are bound by an act of parliament. The EU provides judicial oversight on human rights issues, an area that the UK government has proven time and time again that they are willing to stomp all over. I do not trust Westminster in general, and Theresa May in particular.

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

No, you have not tried. The only thing you have tried is obfuscation and deflection.

It matters not what I agree or disagree with in the article. Due to believing that first and foremost, Scotland being a part of the EU is NOT an independent Scotland.

To answer your question. I do not believe that Scotland has the financial muscle to make a go of Independence, which is why the battle cry of being independent but a member of the EU.

Being independent is a little bit like growing up. You have to let go of the hands that hold you and make your on way.

Are you actually parody account, or do you simply miss the point in every single exchange you participate in?

Personally, I am finding this hugely amusing but I am going to have to stop laughing at you soon because I have a meeting to attend. But please, continue to post your non sequiturs so that when I come back I can have a good chuckle.

[RuamRudy]

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

You should go into politics - you are full of pi55 and wind and can't answer a question.

I think I answered a few questions - there is the one glaring one that has been ducked and dodged by the Private, but I do earnestly try.

[SgtRock]

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

No, you have not tried. The only thing you have tried is obfuscation and deflection.

It matters not what I agree or disagree with in the article. Due to believing that first and foremost, Scotland being a part of the EU is NOT an independent Scotland.

To answer your question. I do not believe that Scotland has the financial muscle to make a go of Independence, which is why the battle cry of being independent but a member of the EU.

Being independent is a little bit like growing up. You have to let go of the hands that hold you and make your on way.

Are you actually parody account, or do you simply miss the point in every single exchange you participate in?

Personally, I am finding this hugely amusing but I am going to have to stop laughing at you soon because I have a meeting to attend. But please, continue to post your non sequiturs so that when I come back I can have a good chuckle.

Your English comprehension skills are alluding you again.

Even though I ignored your barbed dig. Enjoy your meeting. This ex Private enjoys a big fat, indexed linked 5 figure pension at 40 years old. He also does not attend meetings, he calls and chairs them.

I await your next hysterical attempt at explaining how being a member of the EU is an any way, shape or form equates to being Independent.

[rott]

Scotland and France have been allies for centuries.

Both Catholic.

England is Protestant.

Scotland is mostly Catholic? Really? I think your information is a few centuries behind the times.

This only changed when Scotland stopped being an independent country in 1705.

It wasn't the religion of the populace that counted, it was the religion of the ruler.......after all, they were the ones that set foreign policy.

The first Protestant monarch of Scotland was James VI in 1567.

[rott]

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

Most would have rather seen the IRA memebers etc in jail for life. But we let them all out. yeah, that was a ggggreat move.

Although I am not big on amnesties etc. something has changed on the ground. Beforehand there no-one ever believed peace (to the extent that it exists now) was achievable.... how long had the violence been going on? 200 maybe 300 years? Yes, everyone could have taken a hard line and you could have all them (and more in prison) but not have achieved anything.

200 or 300 years? Try since 1968.

[nontabury]

Once again Scotland has little to offer the EU. Scotland in the EU you will need the Euro and as will have the Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries. I have said I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU. Can Scotland do that? What's the reasoning for the Scots to join the EU and please don't give me the, I want to be European line. You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European. Please.

1) Scotland has little to offer the EU.

I don't know how you would define little or a lot, but that is a matter for Scotland and the EU to negotiate - and all signs are that Scotland would be welcome in the EU.

2) Scotland will need the Euro

There are many esteemed experts who fail to agree on this one, but if we require to adopt the euro, so be it.

3) Scottish parliamentary power taken away like the rest of the EU countries

Scottish parliamentary power is currently afforded by Westminster, and can be withdrawn at any moment. In Europe, we are free to leave at any time should we not like the way that EU wide laws are being set. As it happens, only around 9% of member states' laws are set by Brussels.

4) I want Scotland to be independent and not rely on hand outs from the UK or the EU

Along with Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland all exist solely on handouts from the UK.

Other than London, Scotland has the highest GDP per capita of any region of the UK. We are capable of balancing our books.

6) You have been crying for 400 years plus about being independent and now you want to be European

400 plus years? You need to brush up on your history. While the Union of the Crowns took place in 1603, the Act of the Union was not signed until 1707.

As for wanting to be European, see my response to point 3.

I don't have time to argue with all of your points at the moment. What I can tell you, Yorkshire with a comparable population,though without the landmass. Now enjoys a higher GDP than Scotland,admitably this has only been since 2014, after the price of oil tumbled.

I do recall that during the period up to the 2014 referendum, hearing and reading many Scottish Nationalist making derogatory remarks about the people of London and the south east. Calling them greedy,arrogant and selfish Etc., Now come forward two years and those greedy,arrogant,selfish (I have to agree)Londoners have actually voted in the EU referendum the same as the majority of Scots. So how do we go forward from here. Well can I suggest we dig a bloody big tunnel from London, under England up to Scotland,they can then form their own country,how about ScotLonstan. And encourage them to remain in the undemocratic EU.

[awayego]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

[RuamRudy]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

In the interests of fairness and balance, I think I should point out that Scotland bears responsibility for Gove, unfortunately.

[nontabury]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

You forgot to mention that Crabb and Grove are also Scotish. Apart from that I agree N Sturgeon is a formable politician, yet is she the best in Scotland? Well after her showings in the EU debates I think NS has more than met her match in Ruth Davidson.Time will tell.

[awayego]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

In the interests of fairness and balance, I think I should point out that Scotland bears responsibility for Gove, unfortunately.

My apologies, I missed that one entirely.

I always assumed Gove came from Middle Earth!.

[RuamRudy]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

You forgot to mention that Crabb and Grove are also Scotish. Apart from that I agree N Sturgeon is a formable politician, yet is she the best in Scotland? Well after her showings in the EU debates I think NS has more than met her match in Ruth Davidson.Time will tell.

I think that there are more than a few SNP voting conservatives (with a small c) who, in the event of independence, would see a resurgence in the Scottish tories.

We previously agreed on Ruth Davidson - any politician who can ride a buffalo and not look like an idiot is clearly doing something right.

[awayego]

I suspect the reason so many seem to get hot under the collar whenever Nicola Sturgeon is mentioned has more to do with the fact that, not only is she Scottish, she is female and thus even more of an easy target for English misogynists.

Or perhaps it may be because they are jealous that Scotland has a First Minister who is intelligent, articulate, politically astute, popular (with most Scots anyway) and who has the passion, commitment and integrity to take Scotland forward.

Who have the English got?

Well they had BJ, England's answer to Donald Trump, until he was stabbed in the back by the duplicitous Gollum-like creep, Gove.

Then there is the devious wolf in sheep's clothing, Theresa May, who campaigns for Remain one day but will happily carry forward 'Brexit' the next, as soon as she sees the opportunity to be PM.

Or the shameless Liam Fox, disgraceful and disgraced former defence secretary (and native born Scot, sad to say, but the English are welcome to him), whose only redeeming quality is that he is an outed gay.

And Messrs Crabb, Hunt, Leadsom and Morgan - also rans clamouring to extricate themselves from obscurity but nevertheless condemned to Remain there.

And Opposition Leadership? Jeremy Corbyn! Need I say more?

Compared to all that lot Nicola Sturgeon is just the statesmanlike leader that Scotland needs and England wishes it had!

You forgot to mention that Crabb and Grove are also Scotish. Apart from that I agree N Sturgeon is a formable politician, yet is she the best in Scotland? Well after her showings in the EU debates I think NS has more than met her match in Ruth Davidson.Time will tell.

Yes, apologies again for not doing sufficient research and simply saying that Crabb was from obscurity instead.

But I agree with you about Ruth Davidson - a very capable politician and speaker indeed.

Unfortunately, she is a Tory and a Unionist so we'll just have to make do with Nicola.

Perhaps Ruth Davidson should throw her hat into the Tory Leadership race though - she is head and shoulder above any of of them

Sssshhh! Don't tell the English that though or she'll be press-ganged!

[Laughing Gravy]

I would like to say this to my Scottish friends and cousins. This woman is poison. She does not have the Scottish peoples interest as heart. We have been a union for 400 years plus. We are different and I agree, that you need independence and autonomy. We are the closest culture than anyone in Europe. We as a UK Nation have been through a lot together. You need autonomy. But joining Europe is not the way forward. In fact the EU is everything different than the true Scottish people. Nicola Sturgeon is not thinking of the Scottish people, only herself. She cares about herself.and nobody else. So I know the Scots are intelligent and proud. I am convinced eventually they will do the right thing. What's best for Scotland. Following this women, is not the best thing.

[Laughing Gravy]

This is not the whole Scottish view and I know this. Many people realise that this women will destroy Scotland. If the 1 million plus people who didn't vote in the referendum vote, then may just find, that they don't really want to join the EU. Then the latest Referendum was not about leaving the UK but about the EU.

Anyway the Scottish people would rather be with, what they know (the UK) than a union who don't care about them and will sell them down the river, as a country with little to offer.

I disagree they have a lot to offer as part of the UK

[ddavidovsky]

All I've heard since Friday morning is ' England ' and ' Independence ' but how dare the Scots want to look after their own future.

Boris speaks and is ' charismatic ', Nicola speaks and is called everything under the sun.

On the name calling I fully agree with you. There is no need for it and it is childish and foolish.

However, I just cannot get my head around this Independence from the UK and remain a part of the EU.

If she was calling for Independence for Scotland to make its own way in the world, I would actually support her if that is what the majority wanted.

Independence and being a part of the EU does not sit well with me.

Apparently it does with the Scots who voted by a substantial majority to remain in the European Union.

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

On the name calling I fully agree with you. There is no need for it and it is childish and foolish.

However, I just cannot get my head around this Independence from the UK and remain a part of the EU.

If she was calling for Independence for Scotland to make its own way in the world, I would actually support her if that is what the majority wanted.

Independence and being a part of the EU does not sit well with me.

Apparently it does with the Scots who voted by a substantial majority to remain in the European Union.

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

[ddavidovsky]

What Scotland offers - and England can't.... is that they actually want to be part of the EU....

The European project was always about creating a unified federalist type state, just in a step by step process....

The problem is that like many they get ahead of themselves when they start viewing things like Empires -- bigger is better.

And things moved faster than had originally planned after the Soviet Union dissolved and the need to lock in a more open Europe from a resurgent Russia Authoritarian state. There are many countries that were allowed to move forward quicker than they should have (i.e. Greece, Italy joining the currency club before they should have).

It is not like there is not a number of things that have to be corrected and flushed out of the system before continuing.... and that will take time.... The United States project was not a smooth ride any quicker - and that was even though they were forced to be more unified because of the external threat of Britain.

British (older generation; younger generation identify more with being Europeans) wants to "protect their culture" and "their language" from change... which I find funny since they culture and language has changed (old english, welsh etc. were completely different languages - and the culture was completely different; even democracy was different - it was not really that inclusive .... only the "right people" had the right to vote.

Britain should never have been allowed to join - but then it will work out in the end since England will be out... but a greatly reduced and less important version of it on the fringes of an eventually reformed Europe....

I think the idea is to protect the culture from sudden, seismic change that is nowadays made all to easy by technology and mobility.

This principle has always applied. Bear in mind that in 1688 there was a revolution in Britain to prevent the country becoming Catholic - they now call it "The Glorious Revolution".

The changes you refer to took place gradually over millennia. If people find that sufficient justification for imposing seismic and sudden cultural change on Britain now, the place is doomed.

[mommysboy]

One of these think-tank views

Scotland risks becoming Greece without the sun, says thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/02/scotland-risks-becoming-greece-without-sun-thinktank-gove

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

Scotland's behaviour within the Union is as bad as UK's within EU.

Why would they want to get involved with another basket case?

[Grouse]

She will succeed.

And insults ( inbred, stupid woman...) by people who come to stray into the stupidest vote history can be seen as encouragement.

At the European parliament she received a standing ovation which clearly shows that the demand will be supported. This will not make be pleased to English of course, but it had to think before...

You are not reading the News my Friend. The EU Presidency has already said that Scotland is part of the UK and the UK voted Out, which sorry to say, means Scotland also out and there is no precedence for a part of a Sovereignty to gain membership of the EU, Wake Up!

Bullshit! Of course they would say that to maximise pressure on UK. After an independence vote they will be welcome with open arms. Ridiculous Brexiteer comment!

[Grouse]

Another stunning effort.

Can you try to answer my question.

In your own words describe how being a member of the EU equates to being independent.

I did not ask for anything else. Whether that be Super States, Defence, Theresa May or whether you trust Wastemonster.

I have tried - whether it meets your expectations is another matter, but I provided you with an answer.

So - how about you answering my question. What point put forward by the CPS do you agree with to make that would make an independent Scotland similar to Greece.

No, you have not tried. The only thing you have tried is obfuscation and deflection.

It matters not what I agree or disagree with in the article. Due to believing that first and foremost, Scotland being a part of the EU is NOT an independent Scotland.

To answer your question. I do not believe that Scotland has the financial muscle to make a go of Independence, which is why the battle cry of being independent but a member of the EU.

Being independent is a little bit like growing up. You have to let go of the hands that hold you and make your on way.

Are you actually parody account, or do you simply miss the point in every single exchange you participate in?

Personally, I am finding this hugely amusing but I am going to have to stop laughing at you soon because I have a meeting to attend. But please, continue to post your non sequiturs so that when I come back I can have a good chuckle.

Your English comprehension skills are alluding you again.

Even though I ignored your barbed dig. Enjoy your meeting. This ex Private enjoys a big fat, indexed linked 5 figure pension at 40 years old. He also does not attend meetings, he calls and chairs them.

I await your next hysterical attempt at explaining how being a member of the EU is an any way, shape or form equates to being Independent.

RuamRudy demolished you there!

I assume your "5 figure" pension includes the pennies?

I am in Scotland now and can tell you the Scots are up for leaving the UK and staying within the EU. The fact that you never understood the EU is a puzzle? Are you really ex-army? Salvation?

[NongKhaiKid]

All I've heard since Friday morning is ' England ' and ' Independence ' but how dare the Scots want to look after their own future.

Boris speaks and is ' charismatic ', Nicola speaks and is called everything under the sun.

On the name calling I fully agree with you. There is no need for it and it is childish and foolish.

However, I just cannot get my head around this Independence from the UK and remain a part of the EU.

If she was calling for Independence for Scotland to make its own way in the world, I would actually support her if that is what the majority wanted.

Independence and being a part of the EU does not sit well with me.

Apparently it does with the Scots who voted by a substantial majority to remain in the European Union.

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

I don't think you understand she's only stated Scotland;s position of wishing to remain, she's not trying to negotiate and can't / won't do so until Scotland is independent. Meanwhile she's free to operate within existing British laws.

[bkkcanuck8]

On the name calling I fully agree with you. There is no need for it and it is childish and foolish.

However, I just cannot get my head around this Independence from the UK and remain a part of the EU.

If she was calling for Independence for Scotland to make its own way in the world, I would actually support her if that is what the majority wanted.

Independence and being a part of the EU does not sit well with me.

Apparently it does with the Scots who voted by a substantial majority to remain in the European Union.

They voted to stay in the EU on the assumption that the UK as a whole would be part of it. Without the rest of the UK in the EU, it becomes a whole different question for Scotland - certainly not the question in the referendum. Sturgeon is naive not to understand that. And beyond naive not to understand that the EU will only deal with sovereign states. She's made a colossal fool of herself, and perhaps of Scotland.

We voted to remain in the UK partly on the lie that was disseminated that we would be banished from Europe for years afterwards were we to choose independence, and that remaining in the UK was the only way to ensure that we remained in the EU.

Brexit is a clear example of how Scottish wishes are irrelevant in the UK if they are not aligned with English wishes. I fully accept the counter argument that you cannot let a nation of 6 million override the wishes of a nation of 60 million - so the obvious conclusion is that we cannot go on together. Let's break up as amicably as possible?

I think that is about as clear and level-headed as I have read.

I think unfortunately people get hung up on words such as "becoming independent" etc. and lose site of the fact that no state in the world is truly independent. You sign one treaty or one trade agreement let alone one "union agreement" and you are no longer truly and fully independent -- you have responsibilities and commitments and usually a common vision on generally common interests you want to pursue in the future. The 2014 referendum was really a vote that would have settled it for a generation or more if both the commitments that it were based on and the UK chose to remain in the UK.

The UK vote to leave the EU fundamentally changed the equation. On one of the most important issues facing both Scotland and the UK as a whole -- there seems to be very little common interest and very little common vision on a way forward. Scotland sees it's future best served in an European project while the UK seems to be saying.... it's future is best served as an "independent" state outside of the European project. National and regional borders change, and they actually change fairly often which reflect a change of the reality on the ground at the time.

If the UK found a way to remain in the European project which did not change the people of Scotland's interests in the EU. Where Scotland still has full market access to the EU which included free movement of labour and full access to the market -- then the EU issue by itself would not warrant a rerun of the 2014 referendum in the near future even though it has probably awakened more Scots to the fact that the UK government may not be trusted to represent it's interests. (I also vaguely remember that there are outstanding promises made that have yet to be kept with regards to certain "devolution" issues).

On a side note, it has become completely clear that for many in the "leave" camp that independence from the EU not what they actually want or voted for. If it were, they would have left. Instead they apparently cannot leave because they need to negotiate very deep and wide trade agreement that very likely while contain many of the same responsibilities as they had now.... Those types of agreements by their very nature is a massive loss of sovereignty with regards to a wide range of national interests - and thus those that are demanding it are truly not looking for an "independent UK".

[dick dasterdly]

Sturgeon will only call for another independence vote when she's sure that the vote will win.

If/when that happens, its up to Scotland to decide whether they want to be independent from the UK and part of the EU instead (assuming, of course, that the EU provide assurances that they will welcome an independent Scotland - at a net zero cost).