Little England and not-so-Great-Britain

[webfact]

Little England and not-so-Great-Britain
By Project Syndicate



AMSTERDAM — As an Anglo-Dutchman – British mother, Dutch father – I cannot help but take Brexit rather personally. I’m not a wholehearted Euro-enthusiast, but a European Union without Britain feels like losing a limb in a terrible accident.

Not all my fellow citizens are unhappy. The Dutch anti-EU, anti-Muslim demagogue Geert Wilders tweeted: “Hurrah for the British! Now it is our turn.” This kind of sentiment is more alarming, and more ominous, than Brexit’s implications for the future of the British economy. The urge to destroy can be contagious.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2016/07/01/little-england-not-great-britan/


-- Khaosod English 2016-07-01

[ddavidovsky]

More whining that really fails to grasp the big issue.

And, in referring to history, this 'professor' seems to have forgotten England's distinctly 'illiberal' coup by William III over James II - which was actually a turn for the better.

[Bunnychow]

Believe there is a dummy sale on a mothercare for the pro EUer's

To spit out

[Basil B]

For a little country we certainly can whack a big punch...

I am sure when the dust dies the Netherlands will be one of the first trying to secure continued exports to the UK.

EU bureaucrats and leaders should put brain in gear before opening mouth.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Basil B

[Usernames]

I wonder if TVF will ever post an opinion piece from the other side of this issue.

[worgeordie]

The EU's big mistake was letting Bulgaria and Romania

join,with free movement of people,it was obvious what

was going to happen,plus too many stupid regulations,

over ruling the laws of the land,what started as a trading

bloc,grew into a monster wanting to control everything,

as more countries see sense they will want to be free as

well,

regards Worgeordie

[Bunnychow]

The EU's big mistake was letting Bulgaria and Romania

join,with free movement of people,it was obvious what

was going to happen,plus too many stupid regulations,

over ruling the laws of the land,what started as a trading

bloc,grew into a monster wanting to control everything,

as more countries see sense they will want to be free as

well,

regards Worgeordie

The mistake was they have been caught out trying to build an Orwellian federal state in Europe, the immgration thing is a smoke screen

Only a fool is blind enough to see where uncontrolled immigration/migrants in Europe will lead, it will lead to low scale civil wars breaking out in Europe, which is maybe exactly what the despots in Brussels wanted in order to implement a European Army and police force under sole control of Brussels

As has been written in other places, Orwell wrote 1984 as a warning, not an instruction manual

Edited July 1, 2016 by Bunnychow

[halloween]

Have just been sent this. No knowledge as to its accuracy (and its not my problem)

Why they want to Brexit

Read it and weep!

A short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU

.

..

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers’ pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK.

We used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.

And of course, the real deal-breaker .... Democracy, transparency and independence. We can vote out our MPs - BUT the European Commission who dictate 55% of UK laws, which are legally binding, are ..... guess what, untouchable, unelected and hidden from view.

[Basil B]

Have just been sent this. No knowledge as to its accuracy (and its not my problem)

Why they want to Brexit

Read it and weep!

A short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU

.

..

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers’ pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.

The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK

.

We used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.

And of course, the real deal-breaker .... Democracy, transparency and independence. We can vote out our MPs - BUT the European Commission who dictate 55% of UK laws, which are legally binding, are ..... guess what, untouchable, unelected and hidden from view.

Without any trade deals we could put a super import tax on products that were once traditionally made in the UK.

[Laughing Gravy]

I started reading from bottom to the top. The first sentence (from the bottom) has always been enough for me. the rest is just icing on the cake so to speak.

To the OP stop winging. The UK people do not see themselves as European but from the UK. Its called patriotism. They are proud of their identity and have seen this dwindled away since joining the EU. This was an opportunity to get our identity back. Now deal with it.

[bkkcanuck8]

Without any trade deals we could put a super import tax on products that were once traditionally made in the UK.

Yep, and that is called MAD or maybe just AD (assured destruction). It would be like Canada doing that with the United States.... it would just make the elephant roll over and squish.

If the UK pushes up tariffs, the EU would respond reciprocally ending in a trade war with a 450 million strong market... The English market being a small market would be effectively destroyed in comparison (i.e. 50+% drop in GDP).

You would then have to put up a Soviet style wall to try and keep people from fleeing...

Edited July 1, 2016 by bkkcanuck8

[soalbundy]

I presume that there are good reasons why a company would choose a grant from the EU to leave the UK. Firms get sold every day or are you assuming Spanish and German firms took over the buses, power plants and airports at gun point ?

[PETERTHEEATER]

Believe there is a dummy sale on a mothercare for the pro EUer's

To spit out

TRANSLATION - A children's wear chain store named Mothercare is offering babies pacifiers at reduced price for purchase by pro-European Community persons. Having placed the pacifiers into their mouths they have the option to spit them out - rather than remove by hand - in order to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with the Brexit decision.

[SheungWan]

Without any trade deals we could put a super import tax on products that were once traditionally made in the UK.

Yep, and that is called MAD or maybe just AD (assured destruction). It would be like Canada doing that with the United States.... it would just make the elephant roll over and squish.

If the UK pushes up tariffs, the EU would respond reciprocally ending in a trade war with a 450 million strong market... The English market being a small market would be effectively destroyed in comparison (i.e. 50+% drop in GDP).

You would then have to put up a Soviet style wall to try and keep people from fleeing...

Putting up super import taxes has the result of putting up prices as competition is reduced. The result? Prices go up and real incomes decline thus resulting in a substantive drop in the standard of living and the economy goes into reverse. Brave new world? Hardly.

[soalbundy]

halloween, since 2009 the British auto industry has risen 60% with a foreign ( obviously since we don't have a British owned auto industry) investment of 8 billion pounds, i don't think that more will be invested now.

[soalbundy]

I presume that there are good reasons why a company would choose a grant from the EU to leave the UK. Firms get sold every day or are you assuming Spanish and German firms took over the buses, power plants and airports at gun point ?

No they don't, but UK big money guys will sell anything to anyone...

well excuse me for being a capitalist but i would sell anything to anyone for a profit as well

[ilostmypassword]

The EU's big mistake was letting Bulgaria and Romania

join,with free movement of people,it was obvious what

was going to happen,plus too many stupid regulations,

over ruling the laws of the land,what started as a trading

bloc,grew into a monster wanting to control everything,

as more countries see sense they will want to be free as

well,

regards Worgeordie

I think that is a fair criticism. For that matter letting Greece and Portugal into the Union was was mistake. They should have been allowed to trade freely. And they never should have been allowed anywhere near the Euro. But for that matter, no one should have been.

[soalbundy]

I presume that there are good reasons why a company would choose a grant from the EU to leave the UK. Firms get sold every day or are you assuming Spanish and German firms took over the buses, power plants and airports at gun point ?

No they don't, but UK big money guys will sell anything to anyone...

well excuse me for being a capitalist but i would sell anything to anyone for a profit as well

Even your own country...?

who is talking about a country ? we are talking about firms who have owners and under democratic rules have the right to sell to whom they wish. Isn't patriotism a little like racism ? 'The last refuge of the scoundrel' it's been called. I find it a little old fashioned,you wouldn't get me going over the top for king and country,let the bigwigs do the killing and dying themselves.

[awayego]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

I think you do a great disservice to conveniently forget the large number of Poles, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, Free French, and many other nationalities who not only helped defend GB during the Battle of Britain but who "came to the aid of many . . ." until the US joined in.

I started reading from bottom to the top. The first sentence (from the bottom) has always been enough for me. the rest is just icing on the cake so to speak.

To the OP stop winging. The UK people do not see themselves as European but from the UK. Its called patriotism. They are proud of their identity and have seen this dwindled away since joining the EU. This was an opportunity to get our identity back. Now deal with it.

Please do not include Scotland in your UK generalisation.

We are just as patriotic, perhaps even more so, about our country as the English are about theirs but, unlike the English, most of us also consider ourselves European and have been so for hundreds of years.

It is possible to be patriotic without being xenophobic!

[JetsetBkk]

Have just been sent this. No knowledge as to its accuracy (and its not my problem)

Why they want to Brexit

<snip>

First of all, I'm glad we're out - or at least heading that way.

But I see lots of spam emails doing the rounds, mostly about US politics , so I know how to spot one a mile off and don't like them whether they are from my side of the argument or not.

These emails don't do anything for our cause - apart from getting people all hot and bothered - and just give the "Remainers" ammunition.

Here is a repudiation of the "facts" in that email...

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Cadbury was bought by Kraft. Kraft shafted Cadbury. The EU had nothing to do with it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cadbury-closes-british-factory-to-move-101746

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Yes, Jaguar Land Rover built a new factory in Slovakia. No it was not with an EU grant. And Tata is Indian so what’s that got to do with it?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/11/jaguar-land-rover-factory-slovakia-uk-jobs-union

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

Peugeot did move production to Slovakia, but again without an EU grant. There was an investigation as to whether Slovakia improperly gave EU money to Peugeot, but nothing seems to have come of it.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/local-news/subsidise-peugeot-jobs-axe-3983259

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

This is the only one that seems to have some truth in it. Ford did get a loan (not a grant) from the EU for their Turkish plant (which was already building most of the Transits), and after that their Southampton plant closed. The EU had already loaned money to Ford UK but that doesn’t appear to have saved it.

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Yes, the Ajax will be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel (the capitals betray the direct copying from the Mirror headline) but not at the request of the EU. Blame our own government for that one, they commissioned it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-armys-new-fighting-vehicles-7928358

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

All these factories did indeed move overseas. But not with EU money. Sticking “with EU grant” on the end of a sentence doesn’t make it a fact.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

What does this even mean? Hornby is still a UK company, and in fact has bought many European companies. Like many companies it moved manufacturing to China, but that’s nothing to do with the EU.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Yes ICI was bought by AkzoNobel, but not with EU money. I can find no evidence that factories were closed at the time. Since then, AkzoNobel has closed a couple of plants because it has built a new one in Gateshead.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/56d5da5c-a7ea-11e0-afc2-00144feabdc0.html

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

Stefano Pessina isn’t a company, he’s a person. He bought out his own company, Alliance Boots, in 2007, and is now in charge of Walgreen Boots Alliance, formed in 2012. Boots was not bought with EU money. And although they are headquartered in Switzerland to avoid tax, their UK operations are firmly based here and they are a major UK employer.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2007/jun/21/privateequity

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

I can’t even find out where this story originated. If you know, please enlighten me! JDSU was an American company; I have no idea where this Dutch element crept in. If they’d left us with a pollution nightmare and raided the pensions I would have thought it would be at least mentioned on their Wikipedia page, under “Controversies” or something….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JDSU

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Yes, most of this is true or mostly true, I’m starting to lose the will to check. But what does any of that have to do with the EU? They didn’t make our companies sell to the Spanish and French and Germans, these things just happen. It’s called capitalism, and UK companies buy out European companies and close down their factories too. And it’s our government who handed Hinckley Point over to the French and Chinese.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

Yes… except the EU grants bit. Just can’t find any evidence of that.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

I’m a UK and European patent attorney. Trust me, this statement doesn’t even make sense. Passed by whom, passed how?

**EDIT** I think I worked this one out. Although I can’t make the numbers fit with any recent statistics, it must mean “granted”. Some number of UK patents have been granted to foreign companies. Well yes, of course, that’s how the patent system works. Ideally, you get a patent wherever you are going to sell your product. You don’t have to be a native of that country to get it. UK companies get patents in foreign countries too, that’s how it works.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn’t paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc.,

There’s plenty of UK technology companies. In my job I see them come and go and come and go… it’s just the way things are. Maybe they aren’t the old fashioned build-things-in-a-factory companies, but they’re still technology companies. Shazam, for example.

Source: http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the-eu-does-not-fund-companies-to-move-jobs-out-of-the-uk/

[nausea]

No you wouldn't, you wouldn't sell your mother for instance. Many people would sell their country, it all comes down to core values. It comes down to something like this - myself, my family, my country, the general well being of mankind. As most people realise, at some stage or another, they are not immortal, they switch from 1, to one of the other 3.

[soalbundy]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

I think you do a great disservice to conveniently forget the large number of Poles, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, Free French, and many other nationalities who not only helped defend GB during the Battle of Britain but who "came to the aid of many . . ." until the US joined in.

I started reading from bottom to the top. The first sentence (from the bottom) has always been enough for me. the rest is just icing on the cake so to speak.

To the OP stop winging. The UK people do not see themselves as European but from the UK. Its called patriotism. They are proud of their identity and have seen this dwindled away since joining the EU. This was an opportunity to get our identity back. Now deal with it.

Please do not include Scotland in your UK generalisation.

We are just as patriotic, perhaps even more so, about our country as the English are about theirs but, unlike the English, most of us also consider ourselves European and have been so for hundreds of years.

It is possible to be patriotic without being xenophobic!

Sure, but folk dislike being controlled by Germans, you Scots folk want that then do it and remain under their control...Scots bleat about Westminster and the English but WANT a German master..

Well YOU get on with it, if Germans are in your opinion better than the UK union, do your stuff......

silly statement, the EU is not German it consists of 27 countries all with voting rights, Junker is president of the EU commission and he comes from the little country of Luxembourg.

[soalbundy]

............ ...........Gawd 'elp us............

Why do you think UK voted out...........

48% didn't and probably a lot more are now regretting their out vote, comes from listening to lies,NHS contributions,being able to stop immigration, we will be better off financially etc,voting from the heart and not with the grey matter

[Guest]

............ ...........Gawd 'elp us............

Why do you think UK voted out...........

Mainly because complex entities are often too difficult for ordinary people to understand and the populists are using the ignorance of those people to push their own agendas.

(And I already know. That was arrogant thing to say.)

[soalbundy]

............ ...........Gawd 'elp us............

Why do you think UK voted out...........

Mainly because complex entities are often too difficult for ordinary people to understand and the populists are using the ignorance of those people to push their own agendas.

(And I already know. That was arrogant thing to say.)

I wouldn't bother, 'Gawd elp us' is starting to sound like Alf Garnett

[angiolo]

The EU's big mistake was letting Bulgaria and Romania

join,with free movement of people,it was obvious what

was going to happen,plus too many stupid regulations,

over ruling the laws of the land,what started as a trading

bloc,grew into a monster wanting to control everything,

as more countries see sense they will want to be free as

well,

regards Worgeordie

[soalbundy]

No you wouldn't, you wouldn't sell your mother for instance. Many people would sell their country, it all comes down to core values. It comes down to something like this - myself, my family, my country, the general well being of mankind. As most people realise, at some stage or another, they are not immortal, they switch from 1, to one of the other 3.

I'd maybe rent her out for a bit, my core values would be, my children, myself and the rest can take a running jump

[aslimversgwm]

Thanks soalbundy - at last someone to answer the little Englanders - so prevalent on here you'd think that the over 16 million people who voted to remain - 48.1% of those bothering to vote - were so dumbstruck they'd been beaten into submission - and not forgetting the other 13 million eligible to vote who didn't - mostly youngsters who'd have swung it the other way round, judging by the voting stats of those that did vote. And the > 3 million who didn't even register to vote but who could have. Yep - a decisive victory for the leavers - my backside!

As Churchill said: democracy is the worst form of government, except for everything else - of course he was talking about Parliamentary Democracy - not the Ancient Greek idea of democracy - by referendums or referendi - if you prefer!

[MissAndry]

Well YOU get on with it, if Germans are in your opinion better than the UK union, do your stuff......

silly statement, the EU is not German it consists of 27 countries all with voting rights, Junker is president of the EU commission and he comes from the little country of Luxembourg.

Junker seems a bit of a German name to me.

"The distinguished German surname Junker is derived from the Middle High German word "juncherre," meaning "a young noble"

Edited July 1, 2016 by MissAndry

[JetsetBkk]

Mainly because complex entities are often too difficult for ordinary people to understand and the populists are using the ignorance of those people to push their own agendas.

(And I already know. That was arrogant thing to say.)

No, us older folk KNOW what our families endured for freedom.....UK gave the EU a try and what did they see......Germans trying to control, daft folk in Brussels trying to control, ......the UK guy/gal on the street does not want any of that shit, my late father did not want any of that shit...... Some of you just think about money, money money money..........Gawd.......

How DARE you say that it's all about the money!

Oh, hang on a minute, this "Remainer" just admitted it...

No you wouldn't, you wouldn't sell your mother for instance. Many people would sell their country, it all comes down to core values. It comes down to something like this - myself, my family, my country, the general well being of mankind. As most people realise, at some stage or another, they are not immortal, they switch from 1, to one of the other 3.

I'd maybe rent her out for a bit, my core values would be, my children, myself and the rest can take a running jump