Little England and not-so-Great-Britain

[soalbundy]

Back to the Simon Jenkins article referred to above, I love the line:

“An entire political class is on the way out. As Oscar Wilde said of the death of Little Nell, it would take a heart of stone not to laugh.”

One of my favourite quotes from him. Reading on the situation in the UK ( i must admit it was the Mirror,not my normal read) it seems the disadvantaged are now beginning to reap the full benefits of the brexit, looks like they will be paying more for power now as well now that the pound is going down, no good crying now.What a mess the UK is in.

Edited July 8, 2016 by soalbundy

[dick dasterdly]

So, what was the UK economy based on? House prices and consumer debt?

Either way it was never sustainable.

You're not wrong! Services such as Financial, Legal, accountancy, academe. Together with smoke and mirrors.

A BIG part of our problem is that too many English got wealthy just from property inflation.

There may be trouble ahead....

Another issue is that our tertiary education is not designed to support manufacturing unlike in Germany

Another is this ridiculous American idea of persuit of shareholder value and profit growth every quarter. This has resulted in the hollowing out of industry due to lack of long term investment.

With any luck, the Americans will turn us into a huge Disney Land!

I agree with the emboldened parts - and apologise for not being able to sort out the multitude of quotes.

[Orac]

So, what was the UK economy based on? House prices and consumer debt?

Either way it was never sustainable.

You're not wrong! Services such as Financial, Legal, accountancy, academe. Together with smoke and mirrors.

A BIG part of our problem is that too many English got wealthy just from property inflation.

There may be trouble ahead....

Another issue is that our tertiary education is not designed to support manufacturing unlike in Germany

Another is this ridiculous American idea of persuit of shareholder value and profit growth every quarter. This has resulted in the hollowing out of industry due to lack of long term investment.

With any luck, the Americans will turn us into a huge Disney Land!

I agree with the emboldened parts - and apologise for not being able to sort out the multitude of quotes.

Under Thatcher and since the UK has positioned itself towards a more service based economy capitalising on its relationship with the europe - being part of the EU but, more recently, not being in the Eurozone. Much of its FDI and manufacturing was also based on this such as the automotive industry.

It will take some time for the UK to restructure its economy outside of the EU and hopefully find its position in the world anew though, in the meantime, things could get pretty grim. Maybe Banksy could reopen Dismaland before Disney move in.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-34364808

[dick dasterdly]

So, what was the UK economy based on? House prices and consumer debt?

Either way it was never sustainable.

You're not wrong! Services such as Financial, Legal, accountancy, academe. Together with smoke and mirrors.

A BIG part of our problem is that too many English got wealthy just from property inflation.

There may be trouble ahead....

Another issue is that our tertiary education is not designed to support manufacturing unlike in Germany

Another is this ridiculous American idea of persuit of shareholder value and profit growth every quarter. This has resulted in the hollowing out of industry due to lack of long term investment.

With any luck, the Americans will turn us into a huge Disney Land!

I agree with the emboldened parts - and apologise for not being able to sort out the multitude of quotes.

Under Thatcher and since the UK has positioned itself towards a more service based economy capitalising on its relationship with the europe - being part of the EU but, more recently, not being in the Eurozone. Much of its FDI and manufacturing was also based on this such as the automotive industry.

It will take some time for the UK to restructure its economy outside of the EU and hopefully find its position in the world anew though, in the meantime, things could get pretty grim. Maybe Banksy could reopen Dismaland before Disney move in.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-34364808

SO happy to see that a more experienced poster is also unable to sort out the 'quotes' !

[mommysboy]

I'll be hit hard both by the £ (I support three adopted nippers and a household in LOS) and collapse of construction (I work in urban and brownfield regeneration, project management and design). Won a £12.5m contract in London a month ago and so far it hasn't been suspended. Also one of our main clients was chuffed to bits about Brexit and will now increase investment in the UK (this from the board of one of Europe's biggest firms). All that said, I think it'll hit redevelopment pretty hard down the line, already heard three major piling jobs have been pulled in London.

But I'm not really bothered, so long as the best is made of this, which right now does have me worried. As a blue chip American client used to say to me "There are no problems, there are only opportunities!"

Well, right now, by the way this is being handled, this looks like one f'ing big "opportunity".

Of course you can benefit even from the absolute collapse of your own country.... and of course if are sure it is going to break up or down but don't know... you can always create/buy "straddles" (or more sophisticated strategies) .... then you can hire under the table all the destitute people at a discount

But it won't collapse. Worst case scenario 5% reduction in GDP.

Take Financial Sector: Likely to take the bigges hit. But most of the trading is non EU. Even then we've assumed no financial passporting.

Balance of Payments problem was unsustainable. Ever widening gap with EU. It was a rotten deal..

It would be better not to do any deal and trade as normal. leave it to EU start trade war. If EU imposes tariffs then UK does likewise but more. No financial passporting, then no access for EU on some financial services.

It's not all doom and gloom at all. The biggest danger is collapse of EU. It's in such a fragile state anything can knock it for six.

Biggest lesson of all. Democracy is a problem waiting to happen when the plebs are given important decisions. But this was going to happen sooner or later I guess.

Yes can hire the Brexit voters for peanuts. No workers rights unfortunately.

[dick dasterdly]

I'll be hit hard both by the £ (I support three adopted nippers and a household in LOS) and collapse of construction (I work in urban and brownfield regeneration, project management and design). Won a £12.5m contract in London a month ago and so far it hasn't been suspended. Also one of our main clients was chuffed to bits about Brexit and will now increase investment in the UK (this from the board of one of Europe's biggest firms). All that said, I think it'll hit redevelopment pretty hard down the line, already heard three major piling jobs have been pulled in London.

But I'm not really bothered, so long as the best is made of this, which right now does have me worried. As a blue chip American client used to say to me "There are no problems, there are only opportunities!"

Well, right now, by the way this is being handled, this looks like one f'ing big "opportunity".

Of course you can benefit even from the absolute collapse of your own country.... and of course if are sure it is going to break up or down but don't know... you can always create/buy "straddles" (or more sophisticated strategies) .... then you can hire under the table all the destitute people at a discount

But it won't collapse. Worst case scenario 5% reduction in GDP.

Take Financial Sector: Likely to take the bigges hit. But most of the trading is non EU. Even then we've assumed no financial passporting.

Balance of Payments problem was unsustainable. Ever widening gap with EU. It was a rotten deal..

It would be better not to do any deal and trade as normal. leave it to EU start trade war. If EU imposes tariffs then UK does likewise but more. No financial passporting, then no access for EU on some financial services.

It's not all doom and gloom at all. The biggest danger is collapse of EU. It's in such a fragile state anything can knock it for six.

Biggest lesson of all. Democracy is a problem waiting to happen when the plebs are given important decisions. But this was going to happen sooner or later I guess.

Yes can hire the Brexit voters for peanuts. No workers rights unfortunately.

Not sure I agree with "it was a rotten deal" as I think Brit. politicians have destroyed the manufacturing industry one way and another. But I'm not an expert on these things.

You've no idea how much I dislike your statement that "Democracy is a problem waiting to happen when the plebs are given important decisions"!

Much as I agree that "plebs" are only fed propaganda, and few can be bothered to actually use common sense/check out the facts - the same applies to most middle class and very high earners. Although its easier for very high earners to figure out their best economic option....

Before the referendum I said that I'd decided not to vote because I thought that leaving the EU would result in a more right-wing government, with a license to get rid of workers' rights. Everything I've read here from brexiteers makes me think I was right .

[mommysboy]

EU is a bad deal for UK. But the way we have left is the dumb option.

Unfortunately, a hard right UK government will be needed for the next decade.

Only working age people educated to 'A' level (or anyone willing to take competence test) should be able to vote to avoid collective dumb decisions.

Edited July 8, 2016 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

EU is a bad deal for UK. But the way we have left is the dumb option.

Unfortunately, a hard right UK government will be needed for the next decade.

Only working age people educated to 'A' level (or anyone willing to take competence test) should be able to vote to avoid collective dumb decisions.

Do you not think the main proportion of the UK are just ordinary working folk....The same folk who face stuff on the streets that hi-so's don't see.....

Your conclusion is daft..

Well 'O' level, vocational qualifications, 10 years work experience, whatever, but there must be a certain competence to be able to make important decisions.

[soalbundy]

EU is a bad deal for UK. But the way we have left is the dumb option.

Unfortunately, a hard right UK government will be needed for the next decade.

Only working age people educated to 'A' level (or anyone willing to take competence test) should be able to vote to avoid collective dumb decisions.

Do you not think the main proportion of the UK are just ordinary working folk....The same folk who face stuff on the streets that hi-so's don't see.....

Your conclusion is daft..

Well 'O' level, vocational qualifications, 10 years work experience, whatever, but there must be a certain competence to be able to make important decisions.

Sorry but that is rolox.....I failed English -O-Level as a kid, but my head is in gear to what l see on UK streets. My late Sgt.Maj. Dad saw the same as me, he was a public school boy.....What you folk can do on paper means nothing, streetwise thoughts over the years do...

and hearing the opinions of your drunk friends down the pub in between discussing football and the bar maids knockers.

[mommysboy]

EU is a bad deal for UK. But the way we have left is the dumb option.

Unfortunately, a hard right UK government will be needed for the next decade.

Only working age people educated to 'A' level (or anyone willing to take competence test) should be able to vote to avoid collective dumb decisions.

Do you not think the main proportion of the UK are just ordinary working folk....The same folk who face stuff on the streets that hi-so's don't see.....

Your conclusion is daft..

Well 'O' level, vocational qualifications, 10 years work experience, whatever, but there must be a certain competence to be able to make important decisions.

Sorry but that is rolox.....I failed English -O-Level as a kid, but my head is in gear to what l see on UK streets. My late Sgt.Maj. Dad saw the same as me, he was a public school boy.....What you folk can do on paper means nothing, streetwise thoughts over the years do...

As i added : work experience, or vocational qualifications.

[mommysboy]

The Brexit was the dumbest vote I have ever known, and what compounded it was that it was swung by people who had the most to lose- white unemployed working class, the old vote, and generation snowflake who couldn't quite manage the polling station. Luckily, I think EU is teetering anyway.

There has to be some minimum standards as to who can vote. As the road sweeper has considerable work experience then that would be a qualification in my books.

Maybe just a case of saying 25- 65 to keep things simple.

Edited July 8, 2016 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

The Brexit was the dumbest vote I have ever known, and what compounded it was that it was swung by people who had the most to lose- white unemployed working class, the old vote, and generation snowflake who couldn't quite manage the polling station. Luckily, I think EU is teetering anyway.

There has to be some minimum standards as to who can vote. As the road sweeper has considerable work experience then that would be a qualification in my books.

A guy that WON the brain of Britain title was actually employed as a train guard...His job was to stick his head out the window at every station, wave a flag or show a light....

To you this guy is crap but he beat the best that year.....

Open your mind/head, take in EVERYONE'S opinion......

I already have. Try reading. And you are just making the case for me.

Quite simply there has to be a new level of competence as voters have lost it to say it mildly. In my last posting I said maybe just 25-65 as a simple effective measure.

Edited July 8, 2016 by mommysboy

[ilostmypassword]

I'll be hit hard both by the £ (I support three adopted nippers and a household in LOS) and collapse of construction (I work in urban and brownfield regeneration, project management and design). Won a £12.5m contract in London a month ago and so far it hasn't been suspended. Also one of our main clients was chuffed to bits about Brexit and will now increase investment in the UK (this from the board of one of Europe's biggest firms). All that said, I think it'll hit redevelopment pretty hard down the line, already heard three major piling jobs have been pulled in London.

But I'm not really bothered, so long as the best is made of this, which right now does have me worried. As a blue chip American client used to say to me "There are no problems, there are only opportunities!"

Well, right now, by the way this is being handled, this looks like one f'ing big "opportunity".

Of course you can benefit even from the absolute collapse of your own country.... and of course if are sure it is going to break up or down but don't know... you can always create/buy "straddles" (or more sophisticated strategies) .... then you can hire under the table all the destitute people at a discount

But it won't collapse. Worst case scenario 5% reduction in GDP.

Take Financial Sector: Likely to take the bigges hit. But most of the trading is non EU. Even then we've assumed no financial passporting.

Balance of Payments problem was unsustainable. Ever widening gap with EU. It was a rotten deal..

It would be better not to do any deal and trade as normal. leave it to EU start trade war. If EU imposes tariffs then UK does likewise but more. No financial passporting, then no access for EU on some financial services.

It's not all doom and gloom at all. The biggest danger is collapse of EU. It's in such a fragile state anything can knock it for six.

Biggest lesson of all. Democracy is a problem waiting to happen when the plebs are given important decisions. But this was going to happen sooner or later I guess.

Yes can hire the Brexit voters for peanuts. No workers rights unfortunately.

So the Euro was the plebs' idea?

[MJP]

UK starts post-Brexit trade talks with India

Business Secretary Sajid Javid is visiting India for the first trade talks since Britain voted to leave the European Union.

Mr Javid will meet Indian government officials in Delhi to discuss how the trading relationship with India might work with the UK outside the European Union.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36744736

[jayboy]

EU is a bad deal for UK. But the way we have left is the dumb option.

Unfortunately, a hard right UK government will be needed for the next decade.

Only working age people educated to 'A' level (or anyone willing to take competence test) should be able to vote to avoid collective dumb decisions.

Do you not think the main proportion of the UK are just ordinary working folk....The same folk who face stuff on the streets that hi-so's don't see.....

Your conclusion is daft..

Well 'O' level, vocational qualifications, 10 years work experience, whatever, but there must be a certain competence to be able to make important decisions.

Sorry but that is rolox.....I failed English -O-Level as a kid, but my head is in gear to what l see on UK streets. My late Sgt.Maj. Dad saw the same as me, he was a public school boy.....What you folk can do on paper means nothing, streetwise thoughts over the years do...

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

[GuestHouse]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

From 1938 onwards Britain out performed Germany on production of every single weapon, guns, ships, tanks, aircraft.....

And plucky little Britain's war effort was the combined war effort of over 500,000,000 people across the British empire and more than a few Poles, Dutchman, Free-French and southern Ireland citizens.

"In our genes" .... In the genes of the millions of non British troops, sailors, merchants, darmers and factory workers who gave service and often their lives to the "British" war effort.

[GuestHouse]

@saulbundy,

I rarely go to a pub, if I do and folk are pissed I bugger off....

Please lets have real conversation here and not tripe that thebladder would post..

With the pound going the way it is you'll be going even less.

Butat least you have your health insurance for this year, you can worry about the cost of renewing that when it comes around.

[MissAndry]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

Public school - privately run school independent of the government can take any age pupil.

Grammar school - Secondary school run by the government with pupils selected by achievement.

Comprehensive/Secondary Modern school - Secondary school run by the government open to all in the catchment area.

Edited July 8, 2016 by MissAndry

[soalbundy]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

From 1938 onwards Britain out performed Germany on production of every single weapon, guns, ships, tanks, aircraft.....

And plucky little Britain's war effort was the combined war effort of over 500,000,000 people across the British empire and more than a few Poles, Dutchman, Free-French and southern Ireland citizens.

"In our genes" .... In the genes of the millions of non British troops, sailors, merchants, darmers and factory workers who gave service and often their lives to the "British" war effort.

since we are going back 70 years or so don't forget the Americans and the Russians as well and it still took the allies 6 years to win.

[GuestHouse]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammer school?

Or 'approved'.

[GuestHouse]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

From 1938 onwards Britain out performed Germany on production of every single weapon, guns, ships, tanks, aircraft.....

And plucky little Britain's war effort was the combined war effort of over 500,000,000 people across the British empire and more than a few Poles, Dutchman, Free-French and southern Ireland citizens.

"In our genes" .... In the genes of the millions of non British troops, sailors, merchants, darmers and factory workers who gave service and often their lives to the "British" war effort.

since we are going back 70 years or so don't forget the Americans and the Russians as well and it still took the allies 6 years to win.

I don't forget at all.

But tge Plucky little Britain story is horse poo.

[soalbundy]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammer school?

or maybe not, Churchill went to a public school and he had to take the entrance exam 3 times to get into Sandringham. even today they don't take anybody.

[MissAndry]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

or maybe not, Churchill went to a public school and he had to take the entrance exam 3 times to get into Sandringham. even today they don't take anybody.

Public school is about networking and leadership skills, not academic achievement.

They don't need the academic achievement as University places and Officer training are distributed outside the normal parameters (mostly by networking and family influence).

Edited July 8, 2016 by MissAndry

[jayboy]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

Public school - privately run school independent of the government can take any age pupil.

Grammar school - Secondary school run by the government with pupils selected by achievement.

Comprehensive/Secondary Modern school - Secondary school run by the government open to all in the catchment area.

These are the technical definitions but any intelligible definition of a public school would exclude the vast majority of privately run independent schools.Attending a fee paying school does not make one a public school boy.

The rather snobbish but nevertheless accurate test is that if one has to ask whether a particular academy is a public school,it almost certainly isn't.

[MissAndry]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

Public school - privately run school independent of the government can take any age pupil.

Grammar school - Secondary school run by the government with pupils selected by achievement.

Comprehensive/Secondary Modern school - Secondary school run by the government open to all in the catchment area.

These are the technical definitions but any intelligible definition of a public school would exclude the vast majority of privately run independent schools.Attending a fee paying school does not make one a public school boy.

The rather snobbish but nevertheless accurate test is that if one has to ask whether a particular academy is a public school,it almost certainly isn't.

I believe before WW2 attendance at almost any English public school would guarantee officer status in the forces.

Everything is different now of course, because they let plebs with money in everywhere these days.

[soalbundy]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

or maybe not, Churchill went to a public school and he had to take the entrance exam 3 times to get into Sandringham. even today they don't take anybody.

Public school is about networking and leadership skills, not academic achievement.

They don't need the academic achievement as University places and Officer training are distributed outside the normal parameters (mostly by networking and family influence).

well with all the technical know how needed in today's army i don't find that very comforting, visions of first world war British generals ordering the release of gas when the wind was blowing in the wrong direction,ie towards our own troops in the r and r lines who weren't wearing gas masks.

[soalbundy]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

Public school - privately run school independent of the government can take any age pupil.

Grammar school - Secondary school run by the government with pupils selected by achievement.

Comprehensive/Secondary Modern school - Secondary school run by the government open to all in the catchment area.

These are the technical definitions but any intelligible definition of a public school would exclude the vast majority of privately run independent schools.Attending a fee paying school does not make one a public school boy.

The rather snobbish but nevertheless accurate test is that if one has to ask whether a particular academy is a public school,it almost certainly isn't.

You know if it is a real public school if your boy is handed a jar of Vaseline on his first day there.

[jayboy]

Public schools are traditionally the breeding ground for a commissioned officer class.It therefore seems very unlikely that your late Sgt.Major dad attended one.Or possibly your understanding is defective as to what constitutes a public school.

Maybe he confused it with Grammar school?

Public school - privately run school independent of the government can take any age pupil.

Grammar school - Secondary school run by the government with pupils selected by achievement.

Comprehensive/Secondary Modern school - Secondary school run by the government open to all in the catchment area.

These are the technical definitions but any intelligible definition of a public school would exclude the vast majority of privately run independent schools.Attending a fee paying school does not make one a public school boy.

The rather snobbish but nevertheless accurate test is that if one has to ask whether a particular academy is a public school,it almost certainly isn't.

I believe before WW2 attendance at almost any English public school would guarantee officer status in the forces.

Everything is different now of course, because they let plebs with money in everywhere these days.

In fact there was always "new" money in the old public schools or a plebs factor to use your expression.But as Dr Arnold said Rugby School was not so much for the sons of gentlemen as the future fathers of gentlemen.The genuine aristocratic/landed gentry element sent their offspring to less than half a dozen favoured schools - all very famous.

[MissAndry]

You know if it is a real public school if your boy is handed a jar of Vaseline on his first day there.

Not to mention unnatural acts with pigs heads Mr. Cameron.

[jpinx]

Great Britain has always been little, but we are Great because we can fight, explore, do stuff. Back in '39 an unprepared little Britain came to the aid of many against a well prepared war machine attacking little countries. It is in our genes to try....

The EU thing is just Brits showing when enough is enough....

I think you do a great disservice to conveniently forget the large number of Poles, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis, Free French, and many other nationalities who not only helped defend GB during the Battle of Britain but who "came to the aid of many . . ." until the US joined in.

I started reading from bottom to the top. The first sentence (from the bottom) has always been enough for me. the rest is just icing on the cake so to speak.

To the OP stop winging. The UK people do not see themselves as European but from the UK. Its called patriotism. They are proud of their identity and have seen this dwindled away since joining the EU. This was an opportunity to get our identity back. Now deal with it.

Please do not include Scotland in your UK generalisation.

We are just as patriotic, perhaps even more so, about our country as the English are about theirs but, unlike the English, most of us also consider ourselves European and have been so for hundreds of years.

It is possible to be patriotic without being xenophobic!

Rubbish -- look at the demographic analysis of the vote in Scotland -- only the young and recent incomers want to stay in EU....