Little England and not-so-Great-Britain

[SheungWan]

The Brexit was the dumbest vote I have ever known, and what compounded it was that it was swung by people who had the most to lose- white unemployed working class, the old vote, and generation snowflake who couldn't quite manage the polling station. Luckily, I think EU is teetering anyway.

There has to be some minimum standards as to who can vote. As the road sweeper has considerable work experience then that would be a qualification in my books.

Maybe just a case of saying 25- 65 to keep things simple.

Presumably because I am 72 you would not let me vote even though I have 50 years of work experience including 25 in the RAF and I am still paying taxes.

Do you truly believe that at 64 + 11 months you are competent to vote but at 65 + 1 month you are not?

If so, why?

I can still drive a car and ride a motorbike, all my mental bits still work. Granted that physically I can't do as much as I could do 10 or 20 years ago but so what?

Certainly only 32% of youngsters turned out to vote and they are equally responsible for the exit vote. Generation snowflake!

I don't see you as the typical pensioner. But, I wonder did you take the young in to consideration when you made the vote (assuming you did vote for Brexit)? You see it's they that have to live with the consequences.

Thank you anyway for being in the services so long. Admirable. I do mean that.

I did think long and hard about my son, his wife and my grandchildren before I voted for Brexit.

I also thought back to when I voted to join the EEC back in 1973 when I was 29.

The UK, Ireland and Denmark joined on the same day.

Back the it was the European Economic Community and when those 3 countries joined it made a total of 9 countries and the EU as it is today with its 28 members is nothing like the EEC. In those days the countries that were in the EEC and were trade partners with none interfering or trying to control any other countries policies.

Now it has morphed into something completely different and virtually unworkable. Only about 5 countries pay into the EU but the other 23 suck the EU dry and have equal or more rights that the main payers.

If the EEC were to represent/replace the EU now I would happy to stay but not under the current EU "leadership".

I am reminded of a typical type of guy in Thailand who thinks long and hard about his options and even solicits advice from all his mates and acquaintances and then once that is all done does exactly what he intended to do in the first place regardless.

[jpinx]

Why don't we just ignore the wishes of these old geezers. After all they don't contribute to our societies and are simply a burden to all of us as long as they live.

Maybe there is a way to push them away from our productive societies?

I heard that these elderly folks used to escape to the places like Spain or Thailand. They indeed used to live with their fat pensions, paid by us, which we should cut off immediately. After all, they don't even pay real taxes to our countries, where they get their money from. If they do, they don't work anymore. The burden of the old and obsolete folks, which we used to carry and take care of.

Ah, it feels so good to be freed of the all the silly PC talks and policies, we had to follow previously. Thank to you old geezers, we no longer have to think in that stupid way.

Logan's Run

I'm sure you would find it fun, until your turn came around.

You're missing the point -- he *is* on his run...

"billd766, on 08 Jul 2016 - 17:07, said:

Presumably because I am 72 you........."

Many of us older folks actually want to leave the place in better condition for our grandkids than it has been for quite a while. Shaving off layers of government, especially non-elected law-makers, is the first step back into the fresh air of freedom of choice. Watching grandchildren being overly cared-for in the "Health and Safety" world now is another example that makes us "oldies" cringe. So many of the things the older generation have become are because of a reasonably robust life based on freedom of choice - not wrapped in the cotton-wool of regulations all day but relying on handed-down common-sense personal responsibility. It's not only the EU and it's heavy hand we need to get rid of, but leaving the EU is the first step in the right direction.

This has little to do with immigration -- UK has been accepting people from the Empire and then the Commonwealth long before the EU was thought of. The proviso is that they contribute, and are not a burden on society.

What "non-elected lawmakers" are you referring to?

Really?

[mommysboy]

No to second referendum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-government-rejects-eu-referendum-petition-latest-a7128306.html

Sadly for the Remainers, it's a totally cogent argument.

Edited July 9, 2016 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

Well the things done. 'If's and ands' don't really count now. I think that referendum was a bit of a 'game changer'. We must all expect disruption.

I was just wondering about the future. It looks like we're in for a recession. You assume cuts have to be made or taxes raised, while the economy gains traction again. And it will. The one good thing is that UK can really be independent again and develop a wide trading base that much more suits its aspirations.

What if in the interim period the Government pension needs to be frozen or even reduced? Or private pension plans are subject to additional tax?

To my mind it it would be regrettable, but it's in the nature of all recessions that everyone suffers.

I imagine Remainers will be well and truly piddled off, but presumably Brexiters on this board would have no complaint! That's right isn't it?

Edited July 9, 2016 by mommysboy

[MissAndry]

I can fix the whole thing in one go. Put the bank base rate up to 5%.

Money will flood in from all over the world, the pound will be worth $2 again.

And all the stupid people who borrowed money at silly interest rates will lose their homes.

Edited July 9, 2016 by MissAndry

[ilostmypassword]

Logan's Run

I'm sure you would find it fun, until your turn came around.

You're missing the point -- he *is* on his run...

"billd766, on 08 Jul 2016 - 17:07, said:

Presumably because I am 72 you........."

Many of us older folks actually want to leave the place in better condition for our grandkids than it has been for quite a while. Shaving off layers of government, especially non-elected law-makers, is the first step back into the fresh air of freedom of choice. Watching grandchildren being overly cared-for in the "Health and Safety" world now is another example that makes us "oldies" cringe. So many of the things the older generation have become are because of a reasonably robust life based on freedom of choice - not wrapped in the cotton-wool of regulations all day but relying on handed-down common-sense personal responsibility. It's not only the EU and it's heavy hand we need to get rid of, but leaving the EU is the first step in the right direction.

This has little to do with immigration -- UK has been accepting people from the Empire and then the Commonwealth long before the EU was thought of. The proviso is that they contribute, and are not a burden on society.

What "non-elected lawmakers" are you referring to?

Really?

This is exactly the kind of thing that Brexit supporters believe. That unelected officials make the laws in the EU. Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer.

[jpinx]

Logan's Run

I'm sure you would find it fun, until your turn came around.

You're missing the point -- he *is* on his run...

"billd766, on 08 Jul 2016 - 17:07, said:

Presumably because I am 72 you........."

Many of us older folks actually want to leave the place in better condition for our grandkids than it has been for quite a while. Shaving off layers of government, especially non-elected law-makers, is the first step back into the fresh air of freedom of choice. Watching grandchildren being overly cared-for in the "Health and Safety" world now is another example that makes us "oldies" cringe. So many of the things the older generation have become are because of a reasonably robust life based on freedom of choice - not wrapped in the cotton-wool of regulations all day but relying on handed-down common-sense personal responsibility. It's not only the EU and it's heavy hand we need to get rid of, but leaving the EU is the first step in the right direction.

This has little to do with immigration -- UK has been accepting people from the Empire and then the Commonwealth long before the EU was thought of. The proviso is that they contribute, and are not a burden on society.

What "non-elected lawmakers" are you referring to?

Really?

This is exactly the kind of thing that Brexit supporters believe. That unelected officials make the laws in the EU. Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer.

In theory the laws are decided by the Council and the European parliament, but the actual writing of the law is done by the Commission, as is the interpretation and enforcement.

A quick quote from the inevitable wikipedia...

""Union legislative acts may only be adopted on the basis of a Commission proposal...." The commission is NOT elected.

Edited July 9, 2016 by jpinx

[davee58]

silly statement, the EU is not German it consists of 27 countries all with voting rights, Junker is president of the EU commission and he comes from the little country of Luxembourg.

Luxembourg is a principality

Why can't it be both? definition of country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

Luxembourg is also a Grand Duchy.

[ilostmypassword]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

[Bunnychow]

Logan's Run

I'm sure you would find it fun, until your turn came around.

You're missing the point -- he *is* on his run...

"billd766, on 08 Jul 2016 - 17:07, said:

Presumably because I am 72 you........."

Many of us older folks actually want to leave the place in better condition for our grandkids than it has been for quite a while. Shaving off layers of government, especially non-elected law-makers, is the first step back into the fresh air of freedom of choice. Watching grandchildren being overly cared-for in the "Health and Safety" world now is another example that makes us "oldies" cringe. So many of the things the older generation have become are because of a reasonably robust life based on freedom of choice - not wrapped in the cotton-wool of regulations all day but relying on handed-down common-sense personal responsibility. It's not only the EU and it's heavy hand we need to get rid of, but leaving the EU is the first step in the right direction.

This has little to do with immigration -- UK has been accepting people from the Empire and then the Commonwealth long before the EU was thought of. The proviso is that they contribute, and are not a burden on society.

What "non-elected lawmakers" are you referring to?

Really?

This is exactly the kind of thing that Brexit supporters believe. That unelected officials make the laws in the EU. Anyway, I'm still waiting for an answer.

Unelected officals do make the laws in the EU, you need to educate yourself on how the scam works

[MJP]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

[ilostmypassword]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

No polls show that.

[billd766]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

[billd766]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

No polls show that.

Of course not.

Most of the polls were wrong even on the voting day so why would they admit it.

[Khun Han]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

What's also missing is evidence to support why it's thought that over 70% of younger voters voted "remain".

[ilostmypassword]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

No polls show that.

Of course not.

Most of the polls were wrong even on the voting day so why would they admit it.

This bit about polls is misleading. To get an accurate reading on polls aggregators like fivethirtyeight, realclearpolitics, and huggintonpost aggregate the results of polls taken up to 2 weeks previously. If you aggregate the Brexit polls you would find that they were accurate within a very small margin of error.

The economist did a more limited aggregate and it found the vote was a 50/50 split and impossible to predict.

It's the pundits who were wrong. They predicted a Brexit defeat despite the polls. The polls themselves did fine.

[jpinx]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

No polls show that.

Of course not.

Most of the polls were wrong even on the voting day so why would they admit it.

Polls are known to be inaccurate...

https://next.ft.com/content/6a63c2ca-2d80-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-phone-online-accuracy-yougov-comres-a7039351.html

[ilostmypassword]

No polls show that.

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

Of course not.

Most of the polls were wrong even on the voting day so why would they admit it.

Polls are known to be inaccurate...

https://next.ft.com/content/6a63c2ca-2d80-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-phone-online-accuracy-yougov-comres-a7039351.html

Look at the dates of these articles.

[jpinx]

No polls show that.

Then surely a lot of them voted leave? The people in that age bracket at work I know, all voted leave.

Of course not.

Most of the polls were wrong even on the voting day so why would they admit it.

Polls are known to be inaccurate...

https://next.ft.com/content/6a63c2ca-2d80-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-phone-online-accuracy-yougov-comres-a7039351.html

Look at the dates of these articles.

And......?

[dick dasterdly]

Well the things done. 'If's and ands' don't really count now. I think that referendum was a bit of a 'game changer'. We must all expect disruption.

I was just wondering about the future. It looks like we're in for a recession. You assume cuts have to be made or taxes raised, while the economy gains traction again. And it will. The one good thing is that UK can really be independent again and develop a wide trading base that much more suits its aspirations.

What if in the interim period the Government pension needs to be frozen or even reduced? Or private pension plans are subject to additional tax?

To my mind it it would be regrettable, but it's in the nature of all recessions that everyone suffers.

I imagine Remainers will be well and truly piddled off, but presumably Brexiters on this board would have no complaint! That's right isn't it?

Hopefully, the first step will be to bring MPs' pensions into line with the rest of the population. In conjunction with this, they can bring top civil servants' pensions into line with the rest of the population.

They may then start caring about 'ordinary' pensions..... But I doubt it, as they are moving onto other jobs - and I'm v aware that those in 'top jobs' always somehow end up with well-paid consultancies (often from the same organisation), or increased salary immediately before retiring. I'm speaking from personal experience.

Most don't realise that 'ordinary' govt. workers pensions aren't that great - albeit better than the new 'system' where most have no company pension, and have little choice other than to give their pension savings to the greedy hands of financial institutions.

[dick dasterdly]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

I still don't understand how anyone can come up with statistics as to the age of voters that voted either remain or brexit?

The referendum vote was anonymous?

Edit - I said this immediately after the vote, but nobody answered my question. V happy to see that others are now beginning to question the medias' claims about the way various sectors voted.

Edited July 10, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[ilostmypassword]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

I still don't understand how anyone can come up with statistics as to the age of voters that voted either remain or brexit?

Its an anonymous poll?

They polled them them afterwards.

[dick dasterdly]

Looks like the young people's voter turnout was actually a lot higher than thought.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

I still don't understand how anyone can come up with statistics as to the age of voters that voted either remain or brexit?

Its an anonymous poll?

They polled them them afterwards.

Did they poll every voter? Or just those in certain areas?

Not good enough IMO as polls have been wrong so often, and a percentage would refuse to disclose the way they had voted.

Statistics as to those who didn't vote is fair enough, as this info. is available - but not how those who voted, voted.

[jpinx]

it looks as though the older people's voter turnout was a lot higher than thought to.

A quoter from that same Guardian report.

"The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU. "

What of course is missing from that slightly biased (in favour of the younger voters) report, is how those other age groups voted.

I still don't understand how anyone can come up with statistics as to the age of voters that voted either remain or brexit?

Its an anonymous poll?

They polled them them afterwards.

Did they poll every voter? Or just those in certain areas?

Not good enough IMO as polls have been wrong so often, and a percentage would refuse to disclose the way they had voted.

Statistics as to those who didn't vote is fair enough, as this info. is available - but not how those who voted, voted.

Anyone who definitively relies on polls is deluding themselves. The media is alive with questions about why the polls were so wrong for the 2015 elections and now serious doubts about the analysis of the referendum votes. Taking an average of inaccurate poll results does not produce accuracy

The whole idea of elections is that they are private. The result stands on it's own merits.

[dick dasterdly]

Its depressing how many people don't use common sense, and instead rely on media reports .

Edited July 10, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

Things like the bedroom tax and cutting back on the NHS and lowering taxes on the wealthy while imposing austerity are certainly not things that most working class people think are in their favor.

It takes a peculiar cast of mind to truly believe (as opposed to mindless Dave Spart agitprop) that right wing conservatives "want" the lot of working class and middle class people to be worse.

And the point was, and is, that Jenkins argues that this will shake up the political class. It looks to me like it's shaking up the political class in favor of the people who support the programs he detests. I call this Trumpthink. We have lots of people in the USA who say Trump will shake things up while ignoring that the changes he's calling for mostly hugely favor the wealthy and powerful.

Some dubious assumptions here (Tory NHS cuts don't stand up to scrutiny: no British political party would dare!) but I think I grasp your point.In summary why do lower income groups vote for politicians who espouse policies that work against the interests of their less well off supporters? This is an old question and has been debated since the universal franchise.Just a couple of points.Firstly the 'working class' in its traditional sense is relatively small in modern democracies.The critical group is the large lower middle class, many of which are quite keen on 'getting on' in life - and sympathetic to conservative values.Trump is a figure not easily understood in Europe but students of American history will recognise the populist/nativist type.He flip flops on policies so it's difficult to understand exactly what he stands for.Both he and Brexit reflect the widespread disaffection with establishment politicians.If you are suggesting that rage will end up harming (through poor electoral choices) those who express it, you may be right.

And therein lies the problem (emboldened part).

For some obscure reason working class people think they're middle class because they have low paid office jobs.....

Edited July 10, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[MissAndry]

For some obscure reason working class people think they're middle class because they had low paid office jobs.....

Working class earn their money by manual labour.

If you don't get your hands dirty, then you aren't working class.

Karl Marx defined the working class or proletariat as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production. He argued that they were responsible for creating the wealth of a society. He asserted that the working class physically build bridges, craft furniture, grow food, and nurse children, but do not own land, or factories. A sub-section of the proletariat, the lumpenproletariat (rag-proletariat), are the extremely poor and unemployed, such as day laborers and homeless people.

Edited July 10, 2016 by MissAndry

[dick dasterdly]

For some obscure reason working class people think they're middle class because they had low paid office jobs.....

Working class earn their money by manual labour.

If you don't get your hands dirty, then you aren't working class.

Karl Marx defined the working class or proletariat as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production. He argued that they were responsible for creating the wealth of a society. He asserted that the working class physically build bridges, craft furniture, grow food, and nurse children, but do not own land, or factories. A sub-section of the proletariat, the lumpenproletariat (rag-proletariat), are the extremely poor and unemployed, such as day laborers and homeless people.

Do you honestly think that the myriads of low-paid clerical staff (that have replaced factory staff) are middle class?

Obviously many of them think this (and vote accordingly), but do you?

[MissAndry]

Obviously many of them think this (and vote accordingly), but do you?

I've never managed to work out the transition from working class to middle class when they retire.

Assuming a pension fits the 'living off accumulated assets' criteria for class.

It's all way beyond me.

[dick dasterdly]

Obviously many of them think this (and vote accordingly), but do you?

I've never managed to work out the transition from working class to middle class when they retire.

Assuming a pension fits the 'living off accumulated assets' criteria for class.

It's all way beyond me.

Why change the subject from that posted?

Who on earth was talking about retired people?? We were talking about working people.

Edited July 10, 2016 by dick dasterdly