Voting in the referendum of the draft constitution starts

[heybruce]

26 minutes ago, smedly said:

you really don't get it do you, the Thai people have spoken, you and your ilk have been wrong for 2 years, now how about getting behind this process and seeing it through lol

 

The years of PTP corruption vote buying power abuse are over, expect more of them to see the inside of a court room unless they flee like their leader

I'll post this part of my reply separately, so as not to mix subjects.  When do you think the generals will see the inside of a courtroom?  After all:

 

While there are wide-ranging examples of Thai military units or individuals involved or complicit on organised crime, there is no concrete evidence to suggest that the government or the military see this connection as a serious problem or working actively to alleviate it. There is extensive evidence of the military's involvement in criminal networks associated with narcotics, prostitution, human trafficking, and illegal casinos. Military and paramilitary officers have been involved individually, at senior and lower ranking levels. Evidence suggests that security officials are illegally paid "protection" money to ensure that illegal mafia operations are allowed to continue.  http://government.defenceindex.org/downloads/docs/thailand.pdf

 

[Denim]

So the election is on for 2017 !

 

Wonder who will win ?

[heybruce]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

They forgot to mention those being prosecuted for the letter campaign, lying about the effects of the new charter, strangely enough the same people that own Peace TV.

Did the WP ever bother to comment on the failings of Thai democracy; billionaires buying their way into office, MPs receiving payments to be members of a party and vote to order, election policies offering unworkable electoral bribes, and blatant corruption?

Well, the junta tells us there were lies about the charter, but they never told us what the lies were.

 

Regarding flaws in Thai democracy, the most obvious one is an above the law military that stages coups at will.  I do agree more international publications should report on corruption in Thailand, especially the corruption in the current military junta.  http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Well, the junta tells us there were lies about the charter, but they never told us what the lies were.

 

Regarding flaws in Thai democracy, the most obvious one is an above the law military that stages coups at will.  I do agree more international publications should report on corruption in Thailand, especially the corruption in the current military junta.  http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/

You are uninformed, or perhaps deliberately, or otherwise, obtuse. the BP made it clear that the false claims were that the B30 health care scheme, old age payments and free schooling would all be cancelled under the new charter. Could you imagine more blatant scaremongering?

 

Coups are not a flaw in Thai democracy. They are a cure for the flaws in Thai democracy. Perhaps if they lined the members of a corrupt government against a wall and shot the lot of them, one coup could be a permanent cure.

[ChidlomDweller]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

They forgot to mention those being prosecuted for the letter campaign, lying about the effects of the new charter, strangely enough the same people that own Peace TV.

Did the WP ever bother to comment on the failings of Thai democracy; billionaires buying their way into office, MPs receiving payments to be members of a party and vote to order, election policies offering unworkable electoral bribes, and blatant corruption?

Did you ever bother to comment on the failings of the cleanup crew?  You seriously believe this lot?   The difference between you and me is I believe the system needs to clean itself up from the inside, by the rule of law.  Not via backroom shenanigans, pseudo-independent bodies and coups.   

 

I'm not a regular WP reader, but I'm a news junkie in general and the Western press has been critical of Thaksin since well before the first coup.  The issue isn't whether the Thaksin governments were corrupt, but the method to stop them.   Every past coup has had the same rationale, and the same outcome.  So will this one.  

[heybruce]

13 minutes ago, halloween said:

You are uninformed, or perhaps deliberately, or otherwise, obtuse. the BP made it clear that the false claims were that the B30 health care scheme, old age payments and free schooling would all be cancelled under the new charter. Could you imagine more blatant scaremongering?

 

Coups are not a flaw in Thai democracy. They are a cure for the flaws in Thai democracy. Perhaps if they lined the members of a corrupt government against a wall and shot the lot of them, one coup could be a permanent cure.

I didn't read the BP article, I read the article in TV, which 'summarized' the governments claims without stating exactly what the letters said.  However I do recall that the new constitution removes the guarantee of government funding of education through 'matiyom', what is called high school in the US.  The junta stated that while this was allowed under the constitution the funding would remain.  Perhaps there were similar sections that were open to interpretation in the other areas.  Too bad an open discussion about these matters wasn't allowed, isn't it?

 

Regarding your claim that coups are cures for flaws in democracy, why don't you give some historical examples of military rule leading to better democracies?  Thailand has averaged a coup every seven years since 1932, often restarting 'democracy' with a constitution written for the military.  The cure doesn't seem to be working.  Perhaps an alternative remedy should be tried.  I suggest allowing democracy to mature through a few election cycles without intervening coups.  That's how democracies mature in other countries.

 

edit:  Regarding your idea of lining up corrupt members of government and shooting them, keep in mind the generals are also members of government.  If they shot every corrupt general there would be none left to stage coups.  So you are sort of correct, it would end the coups.

Edited August 7, 2016 by heybruce
additional comment

[tropo]

33 minutes ago, halloween said:

You are uninformed, or perhaps deliberately, or otherwise, obtuse. the BP made it clear that the false claims were that the B30 health care scheme, old age payments and free schooling would all be cancelled under the new charter. Could you imagine more blatant scaremongering?

 

Coups are not a flaw in Thai democracy. They are a cure for the flaws in Thai democracy. Perhaps if they lined the members of a corrupt government against a wall and shot the lot of them, one coup could be a permanent cure.

"Coups are not a flaw in Thai democracy. They are a cure for the flaws in Thai democracy"

 

That must be the prize winning comment of the thread.

 

Coups don't and can't happen in true democracies, so perhaps you need another descriptor for whatever political system Thailand has been working on for the last 80 years.

 

What do you call a system which uses its own military as a fail safe. 

 

 

[BlindMagician]

7 hours ago, greenchair said:

Is it usual in Thailand  (or anywhere)

To have to put your thumbprint on the ballot. Kind of deletes your anonymity as to which way you voted. 

Civil workers and soldiers better vote in the right way as it might effect their job prospects. 

TIT

[scorecard]

20 minutes ago, tropo said:

"Coups are not a flaw in Thai democracy. They are a cure for the flaws in Thai democracy"

 

That must be the prize winning comment of the thread.

 

Coups don't and can't happen in true democracies, so perhaps you need another descriptor for whatever political system Thailand has been working on for the last 80 years.

 

What do you call a system which uses its own military as a fail safe. 

 

 

 

Well if there was a genuine democracy just recently the coup would most likely not have happened.

 

Also if the recent mob didn't have a gang of lo-life thugs doing their dirty work they might have looked more genuine, and adding to that the gang of thugs claim to be the protectors of democracy but in reality their own organization does not practice democratic processes and two of their leaders are old hard core communists. 

 

Or put it another way, the fails safe wouldn't be needed and wouldn't be accepted if the previous mob were a genuine party (not an owned entity) with democratic values and actions and morals and respected the process. 

[gk10002000]

5 hours ago, tropo said:

So what does that mean? At least 5 years of peace and quiet guaranteed.

 

These infamous words sum it up well: "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun".

 

A constitution is normally a very lengthy document that would take a long time to read and understand. What percentage of voters have taken the time to read this?

 

 

5 years of peace and quiet guaranteed?  Perhaps, but also continued decline in foreign investment.  More dictatorial decisions with no independent oversight or review.  More bad feelings and frustration growing as the Thais get less and less say in the conduct of their own lives.

[Eligius]

4 hours ago, Denim said:

So the election is on for 2017 !

 

Wonder who will win ?

The tragedy of what has happened - and why it is a day of infamy - is that it really does not much matter now who 'wins' the next election in Thailand - as the military are firmly ensconced in power, albeit covertly, behind the scenes. The new 'Constitution' ensures that there cannot be a genuinely independent and democratic government. The voice of the majority of the Thai people has effectively been silenced - at least through the parliamentary route. This of course has been the wet dream of the tiny faux-elite for years. Now they are orgasmic with delight!

[gk10002000]

7 minutes ago, Eligius said:

The tragedy of what has happened - and why it is a day of infamy - is that it really does not much matter now who 'wins' the next election in Thailand - as the military are firmly ensconced in power, albeit covertly, behind the scenes. The new 'Constitution' ensures that there cannot be a genuinely independent and democratic government. The voice of the majority of the Thai people has effectively been silenced - at least through the parliamentary route. This of course has been the wet dream of the tiny faux-elite for years. Now they are orgasmic with delight!

Not to mention the fact that the constitutions are routinely thrown away every few years by the next coup or "administration" so the piece of paper simply gives the surface veneer of making things legit.  So sad to see Thailand continue going this route and that they can't move past their history of elitism, sorting out a fair and reasonable way for the have's and have nots to share power by setting up representatives by provinces and also having a senate or whatever system they choose.  The USA founding fathers wrestled with that centuries ago and came up with the Representatives and Senators and President scheme.  Similar to the UK house of commons and lords and PM.

[metisdead]

Posts in violation of fair use policy have been removed as well as the replies:

 

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

 

Please use discretion in your references to the government.   Phrases which can be considered as anti-coup will be removed.   Referring to Thailand or the government as a dictatorship, military dictatorship or other such terms will be removed.   

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/878797-updated-notice-to-members-posting-in-thailand-news/

 

[halloween]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

I didn't read the BP article, I read the article in TV, which 'summarized' the governments claims without stating exactly what the letters said.  However I do recall that the new constitution removes the guarantee of government funding of education through 'matiyom', what is called high school in the US.  The junta stated that while this was allowed under the constitution the funding would remain.  Perhaps there were similar sections that were open to interpretation in the other areas.  Too bad an open discussion about these matters wasn't allowed, isn't it?

 

Regarding your claim that coups are cures for flaws in democracy, why don't you give some historical examples of military rule leading to better democracies?  Thailand has averaged a coup every seven years since 1932, often restarting 'democracy' with a constitution written for the military.  The cure doesn't seem to be working.  Perhaps an alternative remedy should be tried.  I suggest allowing democracy to mature through a few election cycles without intervening coups.  That's how democracies mature in other countries.

 

edit:  Regarding your idea of lining up corrupt members of government and shooting them, keep in mind the generals are also members of government.  If they shot every corrupt general there would be none left to stage coups.  So you are sort of correct, it would end the coups.

Coups don't work, so let democracy sort itself out? S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? You think that Thais won't vote for corrupt people, but the evidence is quite clear that they will, as long as they offer the best electoral bribes, and the party list system allows the nomination of unelectable scum like Chalerm. DPM Chalerm that is.

[baboon]

3 hours ago, Eligius said:

The tragedy of what has happened - and why it is a day of infamy - is that it really does not much matter now who 'wins' the next election in Thailand - as the military are firmly ensconced in power, albeit covertly, behind the scenes. The new 'Constitution' ensures that there cannot be a genuinely independent and democratic government. The voice of the majority of the Thai people has effectively been silenced - at least through the parliamentary route. This of course has been the wet dream of the tiny faux-elite for years. Now they are orgasmic with delight!

The next election campaign will be a hoot: Military minders order the audience to ignore their presence or face 10 years in jail. Candidate begins: Due to changing demographics, we will be spending an extra 2.2 Billion Baht on school places in Kh- 'No you won't' comes the voice from the back. And on transport, ladies and gentlemen, we will be reducing rail fares on second class - 'No you won't', comes the voice from the back.

And on the military, we will increase the budget by, err, 8 Billion? Err, as, err the army, err... 'What do you keep looking at me for?', demands the voice at the back. 'They are your policies. Nothing to do with us....'

[heybruce]

33 minutes ago, halloween said:

Coups don't work, so let democracy sort itself out? S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? You think that Thais won't vote for corrupt people, but the evidence is quite clear that they will, as long as they offer the best electoral bribes, and the party list system allows the nomination of unelectable scum like Chalerm. DPM Chalerm that is.

" S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? "

 

Elections.  As I've pointed out to before, a normal progression from a period of corrupt military rule to reasonably clean democracy usually involves an extended period of corrupt democracy--the "he'll steal but he'll get things done" phase.  Short-sighted people with short memories don't want to wait.  They want a quick fix and put their faith in military coups, regardless of how many times the military has shown it is corrupt and doesn't understand democracy, only repression.

 

You and others are determined to ignore the fact that the success of the Shinawatra's lies in the fact that all governments before them served Bangkok and its elites and ignored the rest of the country, where the majority of Thais live.  The Shinawatra governments actually did things--roads, schools and clinics--for the majority that lived outside of Bangkok.  That's why they've won every election since 2000.  As soon as Shinawatra parties stop performing in the interests of the majority the electorate will vote for another party.  Assuming democracy is allowed to return to Thailand.  Under this constitution that may not happen for a long time.

 

You and others are equally determined to ignore the fact that this military is thoroughly corrupt, involved in crimes (such as human trafficking) much worse than any elected politician, and securely above the law.  Only entrenched democracy can fix that.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Well if there was a genuine democracy just recently the coup would most likely not have happened.

 

Also if the recent mob didn't have a gang of lo-life thugs doing their dirty work they might have looked more genuine, and adding to that the gang of thugs claim to be the protectors of democracy but in reality their own organization does not practice democratic processes and two of their leaders are old hard core communists. 

 

Or put it another way, the fails safe wouldn't be needed and wouldn't be accepted if the previous mob were a genuine party (not an owned entity) with democratic values and actions and morals and respected the process. 

" Also if the recent mob didn't have a gang of lo-life thugs doing their dirty work they might have looked more genuine..."

 

I agree, if Suthep had staged peaceful protests in accordance with the law things would be very different now.  As you correctly pointed out, Suthep and company have no democratic values, they are only interested in power and their own enrichment.

[halloween]

Just now, heybruce said:

" S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? "

 

Elections.  As I've pointed out to before, a normal progression from a period of corrupt military rule to reasonably clean democracy usually involves an extended period of corrupt democracy--the "he'll steal but he'll get things done" phase.  Short-sighted people with short memories don't want to wait.  They want a quick fix and put their faith in military coups, regardless of how many times the military has shown it is corrupt and doesn't understand democracy, only repression.

 

You and others are determined to ignore the fact that the success of the Shinawatra's lies in the fact that all governments before them served Bangkok and its elites and ignored the rest of the country, where the majority of Thais live.  The Shinawatra governments actually did things--roads, schools and clinics--for the majority that lived outside of Bangkok.  That's why they've won every election since 2000.  As soon as Shinawatra parties stop performing in the interests of the majority the electorate will vote for another party.  Assuming democracy is allowed to return to Thailand.  Under this constitution that may not happen for a long time.

 

You and others are equally determined to ignore the fact that this military is thoroughly corrupt, involved in crimes (such as human trafficking) much worse than any elected politician, and securely above the law.  Only entrenched democracy can fix that.

Crap. Shinawatras offer the best sounding bribes, and the public are as altruistic as the scum they elect. It doesn't matter to them, or they don't realise, that they are being bought with their own money in scams doomed to failure, the carrot just looks too good. Who cares if the offer is made by known criminals with a history of massive theft, tax evasion and nepotism, if the poor stupid mug thinks he might get a slice of the action.

OTOH why should PTPs supporters care about wasting tax-payers money, it's not like they contribute much of it.

[baboon]

^^

Christ almighty, Halloween. You were angry before and you're still angry now you got what you wanted! No pleasing some people...

[ChidlomDweller]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Coups don't work, so let democracy sort itself out? S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? You think that Thais won't vote for corrupt people, but the evidence is quite clear that they will, as long as they offer the best electoral bribes, and the party list system allows the nomination of unelectable scum like Chalerm. DPM Chalerm that is.

And to add to Heybruce's argument, the plates were already starting to shift (slowly) against the Thaksins before the coup, as their own supporters grew disillusioned.  It might have taken another election cycle or two but there was definitely space opening up for a new party.  In the meanwhile, use the existing laws and democratic protest to shave of the worst excesses.  That was already working with the Yingluck administration on its backheels by January 2014.  What is needed is fair processes and transparent decisions and independent institutions that have a modicum of credibility instead of blatantly biased ones.

 

This is even in the assumption that cleaning up corruption was ever the goal, instead of an excuse for a power grab.   I lived in Singapore for 10 years.  Compare the first 2 years of Lee Kuan Yew with the past two years, and make your conclusions.  Read the international media like the NY Times, Straits Times, Japan Times, Financial Times, Economist, etc., unless you also want to claim they're all staffed by complete morons (same as the embassies) or they're on Thaksin's payroll.  

 

You must also believe that the army isn't itself in need of any reform.  Under this constitution, it's definitely not happening.

Edited August 8, 2016 by ChidlomDweller

[scorecard]

24 minutes ago, heybruce said:

" Also if the recent mob didn't have a gang of lo-life thugs doing their dirty work they might have looked more genuine..."

 

I agree, if Suthep had staged peaceful protests in accordance with the law things would be very different now.  As you correctly pointed out, Suthep and company have no democratic values, they are only interested in power and their own enrichment.

 

1.  And here we go again, you state that I said ...................................   In fact I didn't write that at all. Try being honest hb, you might like it (naah doubtful).

 

2.  Just for the record my comment about the recent gang of lo-life thugs was in regard the the gang of thugs handing onto yinglucks government.

[scorecard]

35 minutes ago, heybruce said:

" S o what is the impetus to make politicians enact laws and procedures to limit their corruption? "

 

Elections.  As I've pointed out to before, a normal progression from a period of corrupt military rule to reasonably clean democracy usually involves an extended period of corrupt democracy--the "he'll steal but he'll get things done" phase.  Short-sighted people with short memories don't want to wait.  They want a quick fix and put their faith in military coups, regardless of how many times the military has shown it is corrupt and doesn't understand democracy, only repression.

 

You and others are determined to ignore the fact that the success of the Shinawatra's lies in the fact that all governments before them served Bangkok and its elites and ignored the rest of the country, where the majority of Thais live.  The Shinawatra governments actually did things--roads, schools and clinics--for the majority that lived outside of Bangkok.  That's why they've won every election since 2000.  As soon as Shinawatra parties stop performing in the interests of the majority the electorate will vote for another party.  Assuming democracy is allowed to return to Thailand.  Under this constitution that may not happen for a long time.

 

You and others are equally determined to ignore the fact that this military is thoroughly corrupt, involved in crimes (such as human trafficking) much worse than any elected politician, and securely above the law.  Only entrenched democracy can fix that.

 

Yawn. I guess your now goint to do a full rerun of the robert playbook. You and your ilk frequently respon with '...ahh taksin ...' and try to push that he's no longer involved.

 

Now you return to taksin, and again with comments that are not all that truthful.

 

You comment '...Only entrenched democracy can fix that....'. Nice comment but that is certainly never going to be allowed to happen under any shin family monopoly government, in fact the opposite will happen and lots of evidence over the last 12 / 14 years to prove it.

[scorecard]

Just now, scorecard said:

 

Yawn. I guess your now goint to do a full rerun of the robert playbook. You and your ilk frequently respon with '...ahh taksin ...' and try to push that he's no longer involved.

 

Now you conveniently return to taksin, and again with comments that are not all that truthful.

 

You comment '...Only entrenched democracy can fix that....'. Nice comment but that is certainly never going to be allowed to happen under any shin family monopoly government, in fact the opposite will happen and lots of evidence over the last 12 / 14 years to prove it.

 

[halloween]

2 hours ago, baboon said:

^^

Christ almighty, Halloween. You were angry before and you're still angry now you got what you wanted! No pleasing some people...

What leads you to think I have what I wanted? That was one small step on a long journey.

[scorecard]

12 hours ago, heybruce said:

I get it and I get you.  If this had been a constitution written by a PTP government and submitted for approval under the same conditions you would declare the results meaningless.  So would I.  However I would declare the results meaningless because the process is obviously flawed.  You would declare the results meaningless because you wouldn't like the results.

 

When you approve of the results you have no problem with a flawed process.  Just as you have no problem with a military coup against a government elected in a monitored election.  You only believe something is democratic if you approve of the result.

 

We will never know if the referendum result shows the majority of the Thai people vote the way the military tells them to vote, or if the vote count was fixed.  However we can be certain this referendum was not a legitimate way to determine the will of the people.

 

A constitution written be a red / shin government : the themes / the content / the direction would all be very obviously in your face aimed at a constitution which opens the way for the shin family (with lots of promises to their leaches, business cronies and hangers on, there selfish ignorant incapable appointed supporters in high government office who can't see the woods for the trees and don't want to) gaining more power. Plus it would contain clever clauses to whitewash past crimes and convictions and kill current legal actions, and bring the convicted man home. (Note convicted in a real court fo a serious crime and most certainly not a political beatup.)

 

No doubt that would make you a happy man hb, and screw any gains to get a better deal for all Thais and get better and more honest capable and sincere people into government.

 

Now hb tell me all of the above ain't true and convince me with real details that a red / shin government would produce a balanced constitution which would push out corrupt politicians etc.  Go for it hb.

 

 

[johng]

Thaksin came to power under the 1997 " peoples constitution"

 

Quote

The 1997 constitution was widely hailed as a landmark in democratic political reform. Promulgated on 11 October 1997, it was the first constitution to be drafted by an elected assembly

 

[ChidlomDweller]

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

No doubt that would make you a happy man hb, and screw any gains to get a better deal for all Thais and get better and more honest capable and sincere people into government.

No need for impugning the honesty of the many expats who disagree with you.  That says everything about you and nothing about the people you're trying to smear.  

 

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

A constitution written be a red / shin government : the themes / the content / the direction would all be very obviously in your face aimed at a constitution which opens the way for the shin family (with lots of promises to their leaches, business cronies and hangers on, there selfish ignorant incapable appointed supporters in high government office who can't see the woods for the trees and don't want to) gaining more power.

It's funny but that's exactly how I see the yellow camp too.  From the very start -- large budget increase for the army days after the coup, the mysteriously expensive microphones, appointment of unusually rich in positions of power... -- I saw depressing confirmation of this.  That's why I prefer to take my chances on fairness and transparency.  All assuming that eradicating corruption is really the goal and not a standard excuse trotted out every 5-10 years.  Everyone who hasn't done so should really do some reading of contemporaneous writings justifying the coups during the 30 years.  The articles and opinion pieces are eerily familiar, only the names change.  

 

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Now hb tell me all of the above ain't true and convince me with real details that a red / shin government would produce a balanced constitution which would push out corrupt politicians etc.  Go for it hb.

Here we have this again, this feigned ignorance that if you're not with the yellows, you must be a Thaksin slave.   Nearly all expats I talk to doesn't like either, but recognize the need for fair and transparent processes.  Deal with corrupt politicians (and all others holding state-sanctioned power) with fair and transparent rules.  That may not always be easy in the short term and sometimes you'd be chasing a moving target, but it's more likely to produce a good long-term result than having a periodic switch between the reds and the vested self-serving elites.  

Edited August 8, 2016 by ChidlomDweller

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, halloween said:

Crap. Shinawatras offer the best sounding bribes, and the public are as altruistic as the scum they elect. It doesn't matter to them, or they don't realise, that they are being bought with their own money in scams doomed to failure, the carrot just looks too good. Who cares if the offer is made by known criminals with a history of massive theft, tax evasion and nepotism, if the poor stupid mug thinks he might get a slice of the action.

OTOH why should PTPs supporters care about wasting tax-payers money, it's not like they contribute much of it.

" Crap "

 

How very eloquent.  However you might have convinced more readers if you had addressed specific points in my post.  For example, you (once again) ignored:

 

" They want a quick fix and put their faith in military coups, regardless of how many times the military has shown it is corrupt and doesn't understand democracy, only repression. "

 

and:

 

" You and others are equally determined to ignore the fact that this military is thoroughly corrupt, involved in crimes (such as human trafficking) much worse than any elected politician, and securely above the law. "

 

Of course I'm not surprised.  You and the other fans of military rule have ignored the corruption of the Thai military and failures of the many past coups to improve things since the coup.

 

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  Stephen Colbert

 

In the case of the junta enthusiasts who continue to ignore the lessons of history, I would describe it as stubbornly ignorant.

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by heybruce
format correction

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

1.  And here we go again, you state that I said ...................................   In fact I didn't write that at all. Try being honest hb, you might like it (naah doubtful).

 

2.  Just for the record my comment about the recent gang of lo-life thugs was in regard the the gang of thugs handing onto yinglucks government.

I know you were giving an overview of your fictitious version of history, but I couldn't resist pointing out that your description of undemocratic thugs described Suthep and friends. 

 

It was very clear that it was Suthep's goal to provoke violence to justify a coup, and the PTP government's goal was to avoid violence and not provide an excuse for a coup.  However this isn't how you want to remember events, so you event an alternate history, one where Suthep is completely innocent and the PTP government was behind all the violence.  Of course you can provide no evidence to support this fiction, because it doesn't exist.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Yawn. I guess your now goint to do a full rerun of the robert playbook. You and your ilk frequently respon with '...ahh taksin ...' and try to push that he's no longer involved.

 

Now you return to taksin, and again with comments that are not all that truthful.

 

You comment '...Only entrenched democracy can fix that....'. Nice comment but that is certainly never going to be allowed to happen under any shin family monopoly government, in fact the opposite will happen and lots of evidence over the last 12 / 14 years to prove it.

Yawn, you don't make much sense when you're tired.  Or any other time.

 

The " shin family monopoly government" could only exist for as long as it kept getting re-elected.  This would only happen if they kept the majority happy, and under Yingluck the people were showing clear signs of discontent.  The scheduled July 2014 election would have certainly seen their grip on power weakened.  However that wasn't good enough for the anti-democrats.

 

" lots of evidence over the last 12 / 14 years to prove it. "

 

What evidence?  When was the last time the military and courts allowed Thailand to have consecutive back-to-back elected governments?

 

As I stated before, Thailand has had a coup, on average, every seven years since 1932.  The quick fix crowd doesn't want to acknowledge this, but that doesn't allow democracy time to become established.