Boycott camp rejects results of 'fake' referendum

[waitforusalso]

13 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have much more expectation of a military government, corrupt or not, to clean up the democratic system which doesn't effect them, than any elected government. Thaksinist governments have been in power for most of the last 15 years - what have they done to reduce corruption? Yingluk's STOP corruption was a joke even to her, before she reduced the funding of the anti-corruption bodies. Then she appointed Chalerm to look into corruption in the rice scam.  Nothing found.

Why don't you stop whining about the temporary military government and take a look at what you are advocating instead? Do you think allowing a corrupt billionaire to buy office and openly bribe MPs is acceptable or not?

BTW why doesn't your list of criminal organisations include PTP reducing corruption - it's equally as ridiculous.

& military governments have been in power for much, much longer than any Thaksin governments since 1932. And what is the state of Thai corruption? Your reasoning is poor to say the least. If the military were the solution to corruption, Thailand would be the least corrupt place in the world. What is needed to stamp out corruption, is an extended period of democracy, where the people finally vote out a corrupt government. Unfortunately, the military has never been able to keep its trigger happy hands to itself.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have much more expectation of a military government, corrupt or not, to clean up the democratic system which doesn't effect them, than any elected government. Thaksinist governments have been in power for most of the last 15 years - what have they done to reduce corruption? Yingluk's STOP corruption was a joke even to her, before she reduced the funding of the anti-corruption bodies. Then she appointed Chalerm to look into corruption in the rice scam.  Nothing found.

Why don't you stop whining about the temporary military government and take a look at what you are advocating instead? Do you think allowing a corrupt billionaire to buy office and openly bribe MPs is acceptable or not?

BTW why doesn't your list of criminal organisations include PTP reducing corruption - it's equally as ridiculous.

As I posted earlier, I am a retired officer from a military that doesn't stage coups.  A coup against an elected government offends me, having that coup cheered and supported by people from western democracies amazes and disgusts me. 

 

Thaksin affiliated governments have been in power approximately half of the last 15 years, every time the Thai people were allowed to choose their government.  Military and military appointed governments have been in power the other half.  It is very telling that the military staged its last two coups when elections were scheduled, clearly the military and its supporters don't want an elected government. 

 

The planned 2014 election would have been held when the PTP was at a low point in popularity, they could have been removed from power democratically.  That wasn't good enough for the military and anti-democrats (including expats such as you). 

 

" Why don't you stop whining about the temporary military government and take a look at what you are advocating instead?"

 

You mean the temporary military government that has been in power over two years and will remain in power for the next twenty?  I am advocating letting the Thai people choosing their government.  I'm advocating letting democracy progress and mature at a pace that suits the Thai electorate. 

 

As I've explained before, after a period of corrupt autocracy the democracy that first emerges is frequently corrupt, the "he'll steal but he'll get things done" democracy.  This is the democracy that will serve all of Thailand, not just Bangkok.  Mistakes will be made, elections will be held, and officials will be held responsible, unlike now under military rule.  As the worst of the inequities of Bangkok serving autocracy are reduced, corruption will move up in priority for the Thai voters and the government will improve.  Of course the Bangkok elite, and the military, will fight this every step of the way.  There is no quick fix to corruption, and a corrupt military certainly will not provide a clean democracy. 

 

For as long as the military is in charge, the corruption that benefits the military will be protected and increased.  Thailand can descend into the state that Myanmar is trying to climb out of.  This is the system you are staunchly defending.  You want a quick fix, and you refuse to examine Thailand's sad history of military coups and accept reality.   You and others foolishly claim "The last eleven coups didn't work but I'm sure the twelfth one will!"

 

It will be a long time before Thailand develops a stable, reasonably clean democracy.  However progress to this point won't begin until the military stops staging coups whenever it suits its needs.  That is why I continue to present rational arguments against the current, appalling state of affairs.  You are whining about the rational arguments.

[heybruce]

38 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have much more expectation of a military government, corrupt or not, to clean up the democratic system which doesn't effect them, than any elected government. Thaksinist governments have been in power for most of the last 15 years - what have they done to reduce corruption? Yingluk's STOP corruption was a joke even to her, before she reduced the funding of the anti-corruption bodies. Then she appointed Chalerm to look into corruption in the rice scam.  Nothing found.

Why don't you stop whining about the temporary military government and take a look at what you are advocating instead? Do you think allowing a corrupt billionaire to buy office and openly bribe MPs is acceptable or not?

BTW why doesn't your list of criminal organisations include PTP reducing corruption - it's equally as ridiculous.

I just thought of another absurdity in your post:

 

" I have much more expectation of a military government, corrupt or not, to clean up the democratic system which doesn't effect them, than any elected government. "

 

The foolishness of this statement can not be politely described.  You think a military that thrives on corruption will clean up government.  You think a military that is currently above all laws will accept democratic government. 

 

Of course democracy affects the military; if it ever becomes firmly established democracy will control the military.  That is why the military forced through a constitution that will keep democracy under the control of the military's people for the next twenty years. 

 

The rest of you post is just "But, but, but....Thaksin!"

[tbthailand]

10 hours ago, halloween said:

Could you offer an alternative rather than an anti-junta rant? Did people vote Yes for both the proposed charter and an appointed senate because the DIDN'T like the proposals?

Ah, I see that you're still the same hollowed out squash .... 

[sjaak327]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

In your own person dictionary, maybe. Others know the real meaning of the word. You also forgot the key word "resigned" or if you like "caretaker".

Grouping people together to extend your time line is a bit simplistic, but yes the history of Thailands military is not wonderful. OTOH if you want to arm yourself and start indiscriminately firing explosive rounds around the capital in support of a criminal who has just had his wealth trimmed, don't expect any sympathy from me. As much as you might like to gloss over the actions of the red shirts, the forming of private and mercenary militia to destabilise the country is not the act of a friend.  Their continued use of intimidation and violence of those who oppose criminal regimes speaks for itself.

 

The award for most ridiculous argument of the week goes to you sir. It does NOT make any difference legally whether the PM is 'caretaker", therefore it was left out intentionally. Talk about simplistic !!!

[sjaak327]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

Again you misjudge my thoughts. I do not prefer corrupt military rule, but applaud their efforts to remove and prosecute criminals, and hopefully to effect change in the Thai democratic system to prevent corrupt government being allowed to flourish. Reform of the system is far more than just badly needed, it is essential for a proper democracy to flourish. It will not happen any other way.

 

LtGen mana was indeed a criminal, but nobody unilaterally appointed HIM as DPM.

You are so naiëve it hurts my eyes. You still don't get it do you. The goal is not to remove and prosecute criminals, the goal is to prosecute their political enemies.

 

There were ample of measures already in place to prevent corrupt governments from "flourishing". What they didn't have under control is the electorate, they have fixed that now, because now they can remove any elected government that interferes in their business, and they don't even need a coup anymore to accomplish this.

 

One thing is absolutely clear, this charter does not allow democracy to flourish. Even the democrats have gotten the message on that one.... Like I said elsewhere, Pridi would turn in his grave if he knew about this charter.

 

Hopefully whoever wins the election and forms a government can find a loophole and amend it so that the undemocratic elements in it are removed, but I think that would instigate another coup and this charter might turn out to be very very short lived.

[candide]

22 hours ago, candide said:

Again, why is it forbidden to have any identification of the voter on the ballot in any democratic country? 

And even if you are right that in practical term it's nearly impossible to do (not sure, if you target a specific voting point, it may be only a few hundred ballots to check), with a military regime in place, military and police everywhere, etc.... it is very likely to cause fear among voters (in particular the ones who are not well educated and informed)

Now are you trying to explain us that this referendum process was free and fair? Human rights organisations and organisations who control elections don't think it was free and fair,  neither the EC and other countries, no serious media state it was a free and fair process (choose the one you like most: AFP, Reuters, BBC, Le Monde, El Pays, The Economist....etc).

 

And now we have a bunch of unchained contributors excited by the referendum results trying to explain that the referendum was free and fair, and that's only because we don't like the result that we state that the referendum was rigged.

No one interested to explain why putting fingerprints on ballots is ok in Thailand,  while it is absolutely forbidden in all democratic Countries? 

[Thechook]

Foreign media are now saying the recent bombings are not terrorist attacks on Thailand but the referendum which was conducted under duress by the military for the military.  No independent observers and those that spoke against it were arrested

[scorecard]

On 8/10/2016 at 10:06 AM, Father Fintan Stack said:

 

The difference of course being that Thaksin recognised the effect of people power, and gave some scraps back. 

 

This mob won't give anything, as they regard being in control is their rightful place and the poor should just be their slaves and be happy about it.  Disagree? Off to jail or shot.

 

 

" The difference of course being that Thaksin recognised the effect of people power, and gave some scraps back."

 

I'm guessing your trotting out the old 30 Baht health scheme stuff, which of course was originally floated by the dems but implemented by the shin rape the course company party, and of course paid for by the public purse and massively underfunded but hailed by the shin machine as the awakening of the Issan people who very given a political voice by their saviour (should read were massively used and manipulated with no conscience) the same man who at the same time was frightening the senior staff of KT bank to loan billions to the Burmese so they could buy his satellites.

[greenchair]

And then there's the polling station that had more voting slips put in the box, than people on the voter list. 

And the polling station that turned their backs to the observers as they counted in whispers. 

And how strange that in staunch pt areas the no voters were only a few thousand over the yes votes. 

Then there's the flimsy cardboard boxes that had no locks. 

And the polling station that sent the voter slips to be counted to another office away   from observers. 

And that only about 10 stations across the country had independent observers. 

And in every election since 1932 there have been discrepancies and a bit of cheating that has been caught out from almost every party. 

But not this time, every person, station, party, commission acted puurrrfectly perfect. That must be a miracle to be celebrated in itself. 

The list goes, I could be here all day. 

[Shawn0000]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

 

" The difference of course being that Thaksin recognised the effect of people power, and gave some scraps back."

 

I'm guessing your trotting out the old 30 Baht health scheme stuff, which of course was originally floated by the dems but implemented by the shin rape the course company party, and of course paid for by the public purse and massively underfunded but hailed by the shin machine as the awakening of the Issan people who very given a political voice by their saviour (should read were massively used and manipulated with no conscience) the same man who at the same time was frightening the senior staff of KT bank to loan billions to the Burmese so they could buy his satellites.

 

But the didn't do it did they!p?  No it was actually Thaksin who brought a universal health care system to Thailand, and of course it was paid for by the public purse, where else would the funding come from?  And of course that is not all they put back, there was also the thousands of villages brought mains electricity, running water, telephones and the Internet, a university built in every province, the GDP doubled under Thaksin and hundreds of thousands were lifted out of poverty.  Now, I am no fan of Thaksin, he was a murderous corrupt self serving arse, but still I would struggle to come up with a similar list of achievements for the opposition, they may also be murderous, corrupt and self serving, but what exactly did they put back?

[debate101]

The "boycott camp" is correct. Of course, that matters very little in the LoS. Most people exist in an alternate universe where ancestral spirits require fanta and drinking yoghurt offerings, astrology is an important source of advice for major life decisions, wearing a helmet can't save your life because fatal accidents are down to Karma, and media-censoring millionaire generals are going to use absolute power and impunity to eliminate corruption and make the country more democratic (unlike the last six times). Just saying.

Edited August 15, 2016 by debate101