Mariage Visa/wife's Shop.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Haaaaa.....well thailand and their rules .. really twisted country.

think about it if SHE(thai) merry to you and go to stay in your country..

Ummmmm....a point to think about...

Every Country has rules and regulations. Some are more liberal and others are conservative. The bottom line is Thailand has rules on a work permit being required. If you want to follow them, as you are married, they are easy to follow. You do not need a company to employ you.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Morgan]

You can be unlucky check out bottom of page (News Archive / No work permit )

[zzz9]

Dear sunbelt.

I sent u a PM please answer me as when I called (before 30 minutes) to your office the person there didnt knew what I am talking about and told me the ONLY OPTION is register company.

please answer with more details.

and about that its easy to follow.. not true.

this shop(the wife's shop) will have to spend more money means the business expenses getting bigger then the other shops..make the biz slower then others.. again its not a "sunbelt2" its just a small shop.

please ur advice.

[kriswillems]

Get a work permit with the wife being the natural employer. The wife only has to have paid personal income tax of 25,000 Baht last year, or had a net income of 350,000 Baht in sales last year or employs 2 Thais and she can hire the OP. The OP salary could be 15,000 Baht per month and he don't even need to pay any personal income tax. He will just need to file the PND #1 ( monthly withholding tax every month) with zero tax owed. His job could be an Personal Assistant to his wife at the store.

Even if it was based on a company, the registered capital only has to be one million Baht ( married to a Thai), no Thais need to be employed and his salary could be even 15K per month(Not 40 or 50K per month)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

This is interesting. Does your wifes business has to be VAT registered of can she just be self-employed with a total turnover less than the limit for VAT registration (I believe this 1.2 million baht turnover)? And while being self-employed can she hire a foreigner husband and provide a working permit for him? Or does the wife need to start a real company?

The net income of 350K in sales, may the salary of the husband be paid from that (giving a total net income that is lower) or does the shop need to get a net income fron sales of "350K + the income of the husband", leaving a total net income of 350K?

[smartecosse]

ahh, so the advice hasnt fallen on deaf ears then

[Martin_F]

The bottom line is Thailand has rules on a work permit being required. If you want to follow them, as you are married, they are easy to follow. You do not need a company to employ you.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Please can somebody explain the situaton regarding working for your wife and not setting up a company for a work permit

Thanks.

[smartecosse]

pretty sure Sunbelt explained it earlier in th thread............

[dave111223]

Get a work permit with the wife being the natural employer. The wife only has to have paid personal income tax of 25,000 Baht last year, or had a net income of 350,000 Baht in sales last year or employs 2 Thais and she can hire the OP. The OP salary could be 15,000 Baht per month and he don't even need to pay any personal income tax. He will just need to file the PND #1 ( monthly withholding tax every month) with zero tax owed. His job could be an Personal Assistant to his wife at the store.

Interested option, but 350,000 net income is a lot of money (for a Thai small business).

My wife probably makes 10,000 baht per month at her crepe cart, and its not a company or anything. She just rented the cart and started selling.

So correctly me if i'm wrong but its impossible for me to go and help her setup the cart in the morning?

(Dont say "of course it's possible, just invest 1mil baht in it", its a crepe cart for **** sake)

[thai_narak]

Starting today I will not touch anything in my wife's shop anymore when I'm on holiday in Thailand. I will just sit there and relax with a beer in my hand in front of the TV. If she ask me to help I will tell her that it is against the law and she has to get a WP for me to be able to help. This is Thai Law.

Let's see what will happen...

[zzz9]

This made me laugh for a full 2 seconds..

I'm with you thai_narak... lets see what this will lead the relationships in the house..

[BKK90210]

I know what will happen

Either you will get kick out from your house, or kick out from the country

Choose one and oh...up to you

[zzz9]

*and I meant 2 minutes not 2 seconds..

mai penlay.. we'll buy another house..mai penlay get divorced..mai penlay we'll rip off several falangs at the same time.. the villege is so boring..so lets make money in pattaya.... the falangs so stupid..they will never know..

[Sunbelt Asia]

The number one reason foreigners are arrested in Thailand (at least according to the U. K. Honorary Ambassador) is foreigners working without a work permit. It never seems to make the newspapers.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

And how many is that?

If I remember the article, he stated it was one case a week that he was involved in a foreigner being arrested.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Cyberstar]

My guess is that it actually is impossible to get a workpermit for working at a crepe-cart or doing manual shop attendence in a minimart. All manual work and shop attendence is on the list of occupations that are prohibited for foreigners, meaning you can't get a work permit for those things - even if your employer was a billion baht company.

The general spirit is that work permits can only be granted for tasks that can't be done by Thais - most Thais can attend a minimart and a crepe cart ... So why let a foreigner take away those jobs? ... Yes, I know, some will argue: I'm not taking away jobs - I'm merely helping my wife ... By all practical means - that might be true ... But welcome to the real world where officialdom will rule that if your wife needs help in her shop, she should employ a Thai, if the job can be done by a Thai.

Edited November 22, 2006 by Cyberstar

[Sunbelt Asia]

The bottom line is Thailand has rules on a work permit being required. If you want to follow them, as you are married, they are easy to follow. You do not need a company to employ you.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Please can somebody explain the situaton regarding working for your wife and not setting up a company for a work permit

Thanks.

Article 6. Regarding considering issuing the work permit under Article 4 to foreigners who apply for permission to work for a natural person employer who is not one having the character under Article 5, permission may be granted according to the following criteria:

(1) Foreigners working for an employer earning an income from business operation in the past year cycle or from the current year: for every Seven hundred thousand baht earned by the employer, one foreign employee may be employed but no more than maximum three foreign employee may be employed.

(2) Foreigners working for an employer who has paid taxes to the government in the past year cycle: one foreign employee may be employed for every fifty thousand baht income tax the employer paid. Maximum foreign employee hired may not exceed 3 persons.

(3) Foreigners working for an employer having Thai employees: one person may be permitted for every four Thai employees, the maximum being three persons.

Article 7. The criterion under paragraph one shall be reduced by one half in the case where the permit applicant alien has a Thai spouse in a lawfully registered marriage and in open cohabitation.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[lopburi3]

Several posts removed. Please keep the flames for the fire and do not post on here again. Personal attacks are not allowed. Thanks.

[zzz9]

I apreciate it a lot Lopburi3 .

it is a forum and we can discuss on any subject relate to Thai visas, residency and work permits.

I use this forum to collect information about the law and act the right way.

[kriswillems]

Article 6. Regarding considering issuing the work permit under Article 4 to foreigners who apply for permission to work for a natural person employer who is not one having the character under Article 5, permission may be granted according to the following criteria:

(1) Foreigners working for an employer earning an income from business operation in the past year cycle or from the current year: for every Seven hundred thousand baht earned by the employer, one foreign employee may be employed but no more than maximum three foreign employee may be employed.

(2) Foreigners working for an employer who has paid taxes to the government in the past year cycle: one foreign employee may be employed for every fifty thousand baht income tax the employer paid. Maximum foreign employee hired may not exceed 3 persons.

(3) Foreigners working for an employer having Thai employees: one person may be permitted for every four Thai employees, the maximum being three persons.

Article 7. The criterion under paragraph one shall be reduced by one half in the case where the permit applicant alien has a Thai spouse in a lawfully registered marriage and in open cohabitation.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

This is very good news for me.

I've 3 more questions.

- Is there any chance that a natural self-employed person with an annual income of 350K would not have to register for VAT (and just be paying 1.5% gross sales tax)? I believe that you've to register for VAT when your gross earnings are more that 1.2 million. But I don't know if gross earnings and turnover are the same thing. If gross earning is the profit from sales (selling price - selling price), we'll never reach the 1.2 million, but we might reach the 350K. If gross earning is the same as turnover we might reach the 1.2 million.

- Will a foreigner be able to get a work permit for helping in a shop in Thailand as a personal assistent? Would this WP allows him to fill the shelfs and transport the good that are sold in shop and install the shop in the morning? I would not be the actual seller. I would really be an assistent.

- May the foreigner be paid from the 350K or should the shop be making 350K, income of the foreigner not included, so 350K + 12*15K = 530K?

Edited November 22, 2006 by kriswillems

[Sunbelt Asia]

First of all thank you for reply me and so fast.

What the stuff told u that I said its wrong(!) the shop makes 40,000baht a month.

So with this details: can I/she do it?

I still dont understand what do u mean when u say 25,000 baht tax.??

40000*12 months = 480000 baht a year..

If your wife was getting a 40,000 Baht salary. She would be paying 2,416.67 Baht per month. This would be more than 25,000 personal taxes in a year and she could be your employer. She however does not meet these criteria having a salary of 5,000 Baht a month. She in fact has no personal income tax. She does not then meet the criteria of 25K personal tax paid per year.

The second option does fit, as the store itself does 40,000 Baht. This is 480,000 Baht a year and is over the 350,000 Baht income requires from the business operation in the past year cycle. She does qualify here under this criteria and she can be your employer. This income must show on the PND #90

The third way you could qualify is if she employs two Thais then you could be hired. With these criteria, it does not matter how much taxes or income she reported. If she had hired two Thais, who had filed a PND #1 for at least three months, then you could be employed.

Again simple small shop the current tax she pays is 1200 baht a year.

The tax on the shop has no bearing in this case.

Will be happy and greatfully thankfull for your answer via this forum.

brgs.

Sure. See above.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

My guess is that it actually is impossible to get a workpermit for working at a crepe-cart or doing manual shop attendence in a minimart. All manual work and shop attendence is on the list of occupations that are prohibited for foreigners, meaning you can't get a work permit for those things - even if your employer was a billion baht company.

The general spirit is that work permits can only be granted for tasks that can't be done by Thais - most Thais can attend a minimart and a crepe cart ... So why let a foreigner take away those jobs? ... Yes, I know, some will argue: I'm not taking away jobs - I'm merely helping my wife ... By all practical means - that might be true ... But welcome to the real world where officialdom will rule that if your wife needs help in her shop, she should employ a Thai, if the job can be done by a Thai.

Won't be hard to get a work permit that states that he is a manager/personal assistant and his job description is to help out with the management of the store.

I'm talking BKk here. Other provinces such as Samut Prakan may not follow Thai law and recognized a natural employer under the order of the Director-General of the Employment Department. Samet Praken has their own additional rules.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[zzz9]

sunbelt thank you for answering and small small questions..

Sorry to ask too much its just I need to know and I think many of the members will enjoy this important information.

"The second option does fit, as the store itself does 40,000 Baht. This is 480,000 Baht a year and is over the 350,000 Baht income requires from the business operation in the past year cycle. She does qualify here under this criteria and she can be your employer. This income must show on the PND #90"

Means how much this option will cost (by month/year) lets say we declare/go for the minimum amount required (350K).

+u keep saying PND #90 /PND #1 Do u have a sample of this form?

where you get this form?labour office/tax?

"The third way you could qualify is if she employs two Thais then you could be hired. With these criteria, it does not matter how much taxes or income she reported. If she had hired two Thais, who had filed a PND #1 for at least three months, then you could be employed."

Can do it easily hire 2 members of our family on the paper.on minimum sallary (lets say 4000 baht a month/each).

*How much my salary/foreigner salary should be on this case?

AND final IMPORTANT question: which way is the cheapest?

Again sory to ask so many questions.. Thank you for everything Sunbelt.

[mijan24]

It would seem some posters want to ask for advice (OP being one), but when good solid advice is provided that unfortunately doesn't fit what they "want to hear " they become instant experts & argue or debate the good information that was provided in good faith.

Now no one expects seekers of advice to accept information without questioning all avenues "legally" available - but remember to be courteous and not a bigot when doing so

[zzz9]

I try to collect as much information as I can get.

The opposite.. because I accept and want to follow the law I want to understand the law and act in a legal way (yes....that match to my situation ..thank you very much ).

enjoy the info.

[Sunbelt Asia]

- Is there any chance that a natural self-employed person with an annual income of 350K would not have to register for VAT (/quote]

Yes. Must reach turnover of 1.2 million Before you do this

I believe that you've to register for VAT when your gross earnings are more that 1.2 million. But I don't know if gross sales and turnover are the same thing.

They are

If gross earning is the profit from sales (selling price - selling price), we'll never reach the 1.2 million, but we might reach the 350K. If gross earning is the same as turnover we might reach the 1.2 million.

Foreigners working for an employer earning an income from business operation in the past year cycle or from the current year: Means gross income before deductions.

- Will a foreigner be able to get a work permit for helping in a shop in Thailand as a personal assistent? Would this WP allows him to fill the shelfs and transport the good that are sold in shop and install the shop in the morning? I would not be the actual seller. I would really be an assistent.

In BKK you would.

-

May the foreigner be paid from the 350K or should the shop be making 350K, income of the foreigner not included, so 350K + 12*15K = 530K?

The foreigner’s salary has nothing to do if you qualify or not. It is just 350K for a year in gross sales if you are married to a Thai. The shop could even be losing money. The Labor Dept looks at the top line of the PND #90. If this is higher than 350K, according to them, you then qualify.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

Means how much this option will cost (by month/year) lets say we declare/go for the minimum amount required (350K).

Your wife had the option using actual expenses or the second option of 65-85% which depends on the type of the business.

Shop is 70% so the deduction would be 245,000 Baht

Leaving a balance of 105,000 Baht.

She then had a deduction for being married 60,000 Baht

45,000 Baht is less than 100,000 Baht (which is tax exempt bracket.)

Personal tax owed is zero

+u keep saying PND #90 /PND #1 Do u have a sample of this form?

where you get this form?labour office/tax?

Revenue Dept.

"The third way you could qualify is if she employs two Thais then you could be hired. With these criteria, it does not matter how much taxes or income she reported. If she had hired two Thais, who had filed a PND #1 for at least three months, then you could be employed."

Can do it easily hire 2 members of our family on the paper.on minimum sallary (lets say 4000 baht a month/each).

*How much my salary/foreigner salary should be on this case?

The salary needs to be 5,250 Baht per month. It does not matter even if their salary was 15,000 Baht, no tax would need to be paid by them.

AND final IMPORTANT question: which way is the cheapest?

Both have no tax cost. I would go with the legal way and not hire two Thais on paper. This will just open up a new can of worms. ( Government checking, severance, etc) and could be a big cost. Just do it on the income of the store.

Again sory to ask so many questions.. Thank you for everything Sunbelt.

You are welcome.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[zzz9]

Thank you * 10000000

you are great!

[kriswillems]

Thank you Sunbelt! You've made my day.

- My wife is self-employed

- My wifes gross sales exceed the 350K (it's about 1 million) but don't reach the 1.2 million.

- So, we don't need to register for VAT.

- We'll be paying a gross sales tax of 1,5%

- I can get a working permit if her province (SriRacha -> Chonburi) allows it, which should be the case according to Thai law. With this work permit I can assist her (being a personal assistant).

- We'll not be paying much tax, neither on her income (because we get a 70% deduction for expenses on her income) nor on my income (because 15K/month is not high).

But there's one problem left: the one year extention of the visa.

We need to get a common income of 40000 baht/month.

I would get 15000/month (from working for her).

Does this mean that the shop needs to make a 25000/month profit? Or 25000/month gross sales?

Or can I get a one year extention based on my employment?

Edited November 22, 2006 by kriswillems

[Cyberstar]

Does this mean that the shop needs to make a 25000/month profit? Or 25000/month gross sales?

Or can I get a one year extention based on my employment?

The visa extension requirements talks about personal income, so it must be the profit. However, in the situation as described: profit is a bit flexible. E.g. is all rent and utilities booked as a business expense or is it only part of it. The remainder to be paid out of the personal salery.

[Martin_F]

Thanks for the information on small operations.

It gives me another option rather than going through the legal company process for start up.

You can get the Revenue Department forms from here http://rdserver.rd.go.th/publish/en/index.htm although I think that it is better to submit the real Thai versions.

Sometimes the English translations are not properly updated for the year as in the PND 90/91 are for 2547 and not 2548.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Does this mean that the shop needs to make a 25000/month profit? Or 25000/month gross sales?

Or can I get a one year extention based on my employment?

The visa extension requirements talks about personal income, so it must be the profit. However, in the situation as described: profit is a bit flexible. E.g. is all rent and utilities booked as a business expense or is it only part of it. The remainder to be paid out of the personal salery.

You are correct on the extension of stay, it is based on profit after the expenses have been deducted ( deductions which is 70% of the gross income or the actual expenses)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com