Yingluck govt had role in 2011 flood: Atthawit

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, MAN2SIN2BKK said:

 

What a load of crap: please refer to this link http://www.kromchol.com/array/BDam.htm year 2554 the red line: the levels of the Bhumibol dam were abnormal from March, and rose at a higher rate than normal until early October when the level was 100%. The Sirikit dam levels were similar with a surge in late June. When Yingluck took office the damage had already been done; the levels were over 90%, normally in August they are between 40 and 50

 

The Governor of Bangkok did do everything to protect Bangkok to the expense of the rest of the country, my house in Pathumthani was under 1.5 meters of water for 6 weeks, without his intervention this flood would have cleared in 3 or 4 days

 

Without YL her interference you would not have flooded at all or far less.  (and like you I hated it that they protected BKK sitting in the water waiting for it to go down only to find out it was held back). But its only normal BKK is a money maker and far more valuable as our houses close by. (not that I was happy about it)

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Without YL her interference you would not have flooded at all or far less.  (and like you I hated it that they protected BKK sitting in the water waiting for it to go down only to find out it was held back). But its only normal BKK is a money maker and far more valuable as our houses close by. (not that I was happy about it)

I like objectivity on TVF, it is all so novel.  Blame the person you hate the most.  With acts of nature, its all speculation and conjecture. And hindsight with all the TVF Monday-morning quarterbacks is always 20/20.  But its 20/20 with tunnel vision.

[Krataiboy]

And if you want to know who is REALLY responsible for global climate change. . . 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I like objectivity on TVF, it is all so novel.  Blame the person you hate the most.  With acts of nature, its all speculation and conjecture. And hindsight with all the TVF Monday-morning quarterbacks is always 20/20.  But its 20/20 with tunnel vision.

You like objectivity but you are not commenting on the case at hand but bring in article 44

 

No its not about hindsight its about YL going against experts to save rice for one of her ministers. By doing so making the floods worse because at that time there was still a lot of time to drain the water AND the high tides that are always there in oktober had not arrived. If your overruling experts then you can be held responsible. 

 

YL makes a habit of going against experts and then when it all goes wrong claims ignorance.

[craigt3365]

29 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Yes, it is much better to have Article 44.  Then you always be the expert and can act with impunity and immunity.  I'll take fallible politicians any day.

Fallible politicians? Yes.  Massively corrupt ones?  No.  Thus, the reason for Article 44.

 

Edit: That's meant to apply to politicians from every political party.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by craigt3365

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

You like objectivity but you are not commenting on the case at hand but bring in article 44

 

No its not about hindsight its about YL going against experts to save rice for one of her ministers. By doing so making the floods worse because at that time there was still a lot of time to drain the water AND the high tides that are always there in oktober had not arrived. If your overruling experts then you can be held responsible. 

 

YL makes a habit of going against experts and then when it all goes wrong claims ignorance.

Since so much time has passed and the 'government' has had time to rectify all the past mistakes of Yingluck, Abhisit, et. al, why are there still floods?  Is it really possible for humanity to control the forces of nature? Unfortunately, there are many world leaders who think so.  Many politicians make mistakes. Responsibility is part of all political landscapes.  But what is happening in Thailand is a vendetta by a government who has absolute power. Do you remember the coupons that were passed out by the Abhisit government?  Was that an indication of responsibility?  Lastly, if people choose to build a house/factory/business in a historical flood plain, have they no responsibility?  Development, zoning, ect. all play a part in flooding problems.  I remember the floods that inundated Korat and displaced thousands.  Is Bangkok and the surrounding areas the only part of Thailand that matters?

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Since so much time has passed and the 'government' has had time to rectify all the past mistakes of Yingluck, Abhisit, et. al, why are there still floods?  Is it really possible for humanity to control the forces of nature? Unfortunately, there are many world leaders who think so.  Many politicians make mistakes. Responsibility is part of all political landscapes.  But what is happening in Thailand is a vendetta by a government who has absolute power. Do you remember the coupons that were passed out by the Abhisit government?  Was that an indication of responsibility?  Lastly, if people choose to build a house/factory/business in a historical flood plain, have they no responsibility?  Development, zoning, ect. all play a part in flooding problems.  I remember the floods that inundated Korat and displaced thousands.  Is Bangkok and the surrounding areas the only part of Thailand that matters?

No going against experts if you have no qualification yourself in water management and then calling it a mistake when it all goes wrong is just not right. She is liable for it its not a mistake if you go against experts to save rice in the province of one of your cronies and take the gamble it will be ok.

 

Now finally there is a junta that can punish her for what she has done, it would never have happened because she always uses her red terrorists when things get tough. Sends to threaten or bomb people.. now this was not possible with the army having it all under control. So finally she can be held accountable without fear of violence. Now all we need to watch is pastry boxes.. its a tried Shin tactic.

 

People who build in flood-planes are also at fault, but she made it worse then it should have been. The coupons of Abisith.. then is the money that was given to victims of the flood by the PTP an acceptance of guilt ? Korat is part of Thailand too and important too but its hard to deny that BKK is the economic center. Even when I was flooded I understood (but hated) it that BKK was protected at the expense of us here. 

 

Point is where I live had never been flooded.. and would not have been flooded if not for YL her decision.. and then her reluctance to give out information that was available to her (satellite images and areal pictures) admitting we and others were going to be flooded. Had she done that it would have been far less bad. She failed double IMHO she cant be punished enough. 

 

If some hospital administrator goes into operating room during a heart surgery and takes over the operation and kills the patient.. do you call that an accident too ?. This is the same she has no education in water management and overrules those who have.

Edited September 26, 2016 by robblok

[pookiki]

One might say that the rants about Article 44 are novel.  What I find novel is the concept of holding others 'responsible' for their actions when the junta enjoys absolute immunity for any act that they perform.  How can one impose a standard of responsibility when they cannot be held accountable for any action the do - no matter how negligent or harmful?  The only way to buy into this ugly paradox is to justify the junta's actions as always being infallible.

Edited September 26, 2016 by pookiki
spelling error.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

[craigt3365]

16 minutes ago, pookiki said:

One might say that the rants about Article 44 are novel.  What I find novel is the concept of holding others 'responsible' for their actions when the junta enjoys absolute immunity for any act that they perform.  How can one impose a standard of responsibility when they cannot be held accountable for any action the do - no matter how negligent or harmful?  The only way to buy into this ugly paradox is to justify the junta's actions as always being infallible.

A difficult situation.  Sadly, one brought on by the politicians themselves.

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, mike324 said:

 

 

Army was all over the country, soldiers were the ones placing sand bags everywhere, did you not watch TV? They were the only helpful ones, bringing food in and out for communities surrounded by flood water. I have loads of pictures, as my house is right outside of Bangkok and it was surrounded by flood water as high as 1 meter in sound places. The army was there daily to pass out food.

 

 

Is it not the army responsibilities during peace time to help the country in times of natural calamities. Seem a whole lot of OTP over-glorifiying for just performing their duty like other military in any part of the world. 

 

There were many agencies like the municipals, temples, churches, Red Cross and even USA that brought food to the people in need besides the military. 

 

I am grateful for the ride to my flooded mo baan. Who else have those all weather 3 tonners and extra manpower to do that daily. 

 

 

 

[KenKadz]

Love Her or Hate Her, a person has to admire Yingluck's tenacity.

These idiots in government would have driven me around the twist a long time ago!

[Thaidream]

I too lived in Pathum Thani during the 2011 floods and can affirm what th prior poster stated regarding the Bangkok governor's doing everything he could do to stop water entering Bangkok. However, by doing this he caused massive flooding in Pathum where my house was inundated for almost 6 weeks and the rancid water was filled with large lizards and snakes. We finally abandoned the house and headed to Bangkok- a trip which normally takes no more than 60 minutes took us 8 hours  due to massive traffic jams and people parking their cars on the elevated expressways,  My house suffered 150,000 Baht of flood damage.

What actually caused the water to start to recede was an armed confrontation between Pathumthani local people and the Thai police who eventually backed off and the huge 'big bags' that blocked water flow were removed which caused the natural flow of water to return and the stagnant water to start draining. The  Bangkok local administration caused huge amounts of damage to people's homes, cars and possessions in order to 'save' Bangkok residents any discomfort. In addition, the evacuation sites set up at Don Muang Airport and Thammasat were also flooded forcing evacuees to seek shelter anywhere they could. There was complete mismanagement during this flood and the blame can be shared equally between the National Government and the Bangkok Governor's Administration.

The Thai Army was wonderful during this time- bringing their personnel in with large trucks- evacuating citizens and foreigners and assisting the sick and elderly. These people were professional and caring. The politicians on the other hand were just the opposite.

[givenall]

Lets keep Mr. T at bay by reminding him Yingluck's damages she has done while she was his puppet

[JAG]

2 hours ago, Soi Dog said:

Good thing they are establishing a precedent so we will know who to go after for this year's flooding.  Karma is a bitch.

Ah no- can't do that,  you see they've got an amnesty. .

[Thaidream]

A countries military is always tasked with providing assistance to its citizens and the Thai Army performed in a highly professional manner during the 2011 flood. It was the politicians who are responsible for an inept response to the flood. Both the Yingluck government and the Bangkok Administration were inept and their ineptness caused huge problems making the flooding worse that it needed to be. The refusal to allow the natural flow of water to un through portions of Bangkok caused massive flooding in the Central Plains ; Pathumthani; Nonthaburi and caused billions of baht worth of damage.  Evacuee's were ordered to go to Don Muang airport and found the airport either inaccessible due to water levels or flooded. The same happened at Thammasat University. Without the military, citizens would have been abandoned. I know- because I was in the Pathumthani flood area. 

The politicians on both sides were inept.  At least this time, the military is in charge which  should help to ease the relief efforts.

[animatic]

8 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

it started raining heavily from March

we are talking of a sea of water the size of Wales

Bangkok tried to protect itself at the expense of the country

Where was the army?

Where was the defense of the nation?

Total incompetence all round

Eyes were on the election and nature was forgotten

It wasn't Bangkok as much as the up-country mega large scale rice growers

worried their paddy would be washed away before harvest, or made too damp to store,

 and not make it to the double price rice pledging scheme market.  

DOUBLE price...is payback for services.

 

Most of that does NOT go to the farmer, but the millers and shippers and storage people. 

But who do THEY control? Millions of farmer voters, most desperate to survive

and vote as told in the hopes their life will improve,.

 

It was obvious to even the causal observer that the dams levels were being manipulated idiotically.

 

And no conscious dam operator would have done so except under orders from WAY up the food chain.

At government levels. Yes, there were 4 hurricane remnants that had come across northern Thailand,

that were being held back,  but higher output earlier would not have effected Bangkok significantly.

 

But it surely would have 'trashed the paddy just before harvest'  <<< there is the real loss leader,

and the Rice Pledging Scheme was the quid pro quo to the rice millers/shippers/truckers network

to deliver their 'rice growers network of voters' to the Shinawatra led coalition to ensure it's election.

 

Little doubt  why the Yingluck government milked the Rice Scheme as long as possible,

even after the floods. And why they kept at it till their were brought down by it.

It is the biggest cash cow in Issan, and that's where their cult of personality must be maintained to hold power.

 

This is why there has to be reasonably large amounts of statistical evidence to support these charges.

It is not surprising this is coming out, only  surprising it took them so long to start on it.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by animatic

[mike324]

45 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

 

Is it not the army responsibilities during peace time to help the country in times of natural calamities. Seem a whole lot of OTP over-glorifiying for just performing their duty like other military in any part of the world. 

 

There were many agencies like the municipals, temples, churches, Red Cross and even USA that brought food to the people in need besides the military. 

 

I am grateful for the ride to my flooded mo baan. Who else have those all weather 3 tonners and extra manpower to do that daily. 

 

 

 

 

You got to be kidding me,  pretty much every country in the world the army is called upon to help in times of large natural disasters. Yes, there are many other agencies to help, but who has trucks high enough to ford flood waters, boats to assist with large scale operations. You seem to want to take opportunity to smear the army even when they are doing good and helping its own citizens. What a joke you are! 

 

If you need some refreshening, here it is UK, France, Germany, all within this year and last and all assisting in times of flood! 

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/28115.aspx

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-weather-idUSKCN0YO0XI

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/flooding-worsening-in-parts-of-germany-6-dead-in-europe-so-far-a-903396.html

 

I wonder what your excuse is now...

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

I love the smell of "Reconciliation" in the morning; it smells like 'Victory'.

 

I understand the yellow/green desire to keep their boot on the neck of the masses, but at some point they've got to let up.

 

Do you also understand the Shin / Red desire to keep the masses yoked so they can be ruthlessly exploited and robbed?

[Thaidream]

Kudos to Animatic- An excellent description of what actually happened and why. Those who are wealthy and power hungry will do anything to remain in power and that occurs everywhere in the World- not just Thailand.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Thaidream

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, chilli42 said:

 

Your point is of course valid.  However, if you have ever been in a leadership position in government or a corporation you will know that you are the last one to hear bad news and in this culture this would be amplified many times. I am no fan of the Taksin clan but on this one I doubt she was even told by her "experts" what was going on until it was too late and alreadyhappening.

 

I hope your're never the CEO of a business I invest in! 

 

Do you seriously doubt that the little puppet pretty's big control freak brother wasn't fully aware?

 

I doubt Yingluck would have known what the experts were on about, left it all to her brother, and was always reassured knowing she wouldn't be inconvenienced in the slightest.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

One might say that the rants about Article 44 are novel.  What I find novel is the concept of holding others 'responsible' for their actions when the junta enjoys absolute immunity for any act that they perform.  How can one impose a standard of responsibility when they cannot be held accountable for any action the do - no matter how negligent or harmful?  The only way to buy into this ugly paradox is to justify the junta's actions as always being infallible.

Two wrongs dont make a right. Only thing i can say is the army was forced into this and it all started with T his amnesty. No amnesty for T no junta now. 

 

But I do agree the junta should be held accountable too if they do similar actions like YL causing damages. 

 

But it still does not excuse YL and I really hope she will face the consequences. But I highly doubt it. 

[Baerboxer]

3 hours ago, chuang said:

Rice now flood what next

 

Whatever other negligence, malfeasance or criminal act comes to light.

 

That mismanagement of flood budget come back to haunt must be a bummer for her.

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

You got to be kidding me,  pretty much every country in the world the army is called upon to help in times of large natural disasters. Yes, there are many other agencies to help, but who has trucks high enough to ford flood waters, boats to assist with large scale operations. You seem to want to take opportunity to smear the army even when they are doing good and helping its own citizens. What a joke you are! 

 

If you need some refreshening, here it is UK, France, Germany, all within this year and last and all assisting in times of flood! 

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/28115.aspx

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-weather-idUSKCN0YO0XI

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/flooding-worsening-in-parts-of-germany-6-dead-in-europe-so-far-a-903396.html

 

I wonder what your excuse is now...

 

I see you mis-read my post. I said "is it not the military responsibility to help out?". Your reply simply confirmed my question that military all over the world help out in times of natural calamities. I simply asked if the OTT adoration of the RTA is excessive for just doing their job. 

 

I dont need to smear the RTA. They are doing ok by themselves.

[pookiki]

34 minutes ago, robblok said:

Two wrongs dont make a right. Only thing i can say is the army was forced into this and it all started with T his amnesty. No amnesty for T no junta now. 

 

But I do agree the junta should be held accountable too if they do similar actions like YL causing damages. 

 

But it still does not excuse YL and I really hope she will face the consequences. But I highly doubt it. 

For argument's sake, let's say that Abhisit and Yingluk were totally at fault for the floods.  What happens in similar situations in Western democracies when politicians make mistakes?  Are they held 'personally accountable'?  I find it very paradoxical that expats from democratic countries want to extract a different form of 'justice' than would exist in their own country. In other countries with a democratically elected government where a leader made a faulty/negligent decision, there would be a commission appointed to study the problem and pinpoint mistakes that were made so the mistakes (hopefully) wouldn't be repeated.  Politicians make decisions that are politically motivated.  No mystery here or in other democracies. In Thailand, however, this is an excuse for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

While you 'agree' that the junta 'should' be held responsible, they can't be. Democracy needs to be restored in Thailand so everyone has a voice and the serious situations in Thailand can be addressed with every person's voice being heard.

Edited September 26, 2016 by pookiki
grammar

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, pookiki said:

For argument's sake, let's say that Abhisit and Yingluk were totally at fault for the floods.  What happens in similar situations in Western democracies when politicians make mistakes?  Are they held 'personally accountable'?  I find it very paradoxical that expats from democratic countries want to extract a different form of 'justice' than would exist in their own country. In other countries with a democratically elected government where a leader made a faulty/negligent decision, there would be a commission appointed to study the problem and pinpoint mistakes that were made so the mistakes (hopefully) wouldn't be repeated.  Politicians make decisions that are politically motivated.  No mystery here or in other democracies. In Thailand, however, this is an excuse for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

While you 'agree' that the junta 'should' be held responsible, they can't be. Democracy needs to be restored in Thailand so everyone has a voice and the serious situations in Thailand can be addressed with every person's voice being heard.

In democratic countries politicians can be held accountable personal if the transgression is grave enough. Now YL going over the head of experts and forcing them not to release water is certainly a grave transgression.

 

I gave you the example of the director of a hospital stepping into an operating room and taking over from the surgeon (while the director is not skilled) and killing the patient. That would not be called an accident but would be real bad. Similar for YL.. no watermanagement education going over the heads of these men and making a mess of it. That is indeed something that could be punished in the west too. 

 

You are seeing this as something minor .. then yes you got some commission.. but even then sometimes punishment comes. Besides if the transgression is grave enough they go to jail too. I have seen politicians go to jail.. you havent ?

 

Your kidding yourself that Thailand is a democracy.. it never was.. in a democracy the thing YL and others did would have never happened and would have been punished. But you prefer a fake democracy over a junta.. that is your prerogative.  I would support a functioning democracy in Thailand.. but not those where the crooks rule and are not punished. 

[mike324]

2 hours ago, MAN2SIN2BKK said:

 

What a load of crap: please refer to this link http://www.kromchol.com/array/BDam.htm year 2554 the red line: the levels of the Bhumibol dam were abnormal from March, and rose at a higher rate than normal until early October when the level was 100%. The Sirikit dam levels were similar with a surge in late June. When Yingluck took office the damage had already been done; the levels were over 90%, normally in August they are between 40 and 50

 

The Governor of Bangkok did do everything to protect Bangkok to the expense of the rest of the country, my house in Pathumthani was under 1.5 meters of water for 6 weeks, without his intervention this flood would have cleared in 3 or 4 days

 

 

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and learn to analyze data before calling crap. Thailand had more precipitation but dam water level was still safe when Abhisit dissolved office in June. Just because a line is trending higher than some years, you call that abnormal? Thats what you call throwing crap around! Perhaps you should learn to analyze a graph and what it means. The surge in late June was due to typhoon Haima making land fall. Irrigation Department is to be blamed for not monitoring and releasing more water during June, July. Another reason why Irrigation Department did not release water fast enough was because they thought it was already flooding in other provinces, they did not want to make it worse, this decision was the first mistake. 

 

When Yingluck took office, Bumibol Dam was around 70-75% full not 90% like you are claiming. Damage was already done, but her party made it WORSE by not releasing water fast enough and diverting waters so farmers can bring in a third crop to benefit their Rice Scheme.  Typhoon Nock-Ten hit in August. Typoon Haitang, Nesat, and Nalgae all hit in September and October. One would wonder why the hell would PTP not release more water, instead they held it to benefit farmers which was the second big mistake.

 

For those yapping about protecting Bangkok and being selfish. Bangkok should be protected at all cost, I will state it again. The customs department is located in Bangkok, when it closes, it pretty much brings over 90% of the countries import and export to a halt. Nothing can go in and out of the country if documents aren't issued. Most freight forwarding companies are located in Bangkok as well, if they can't operate, it has a domino effect with shipments sent to foreign countries where shipments will be held at the port / customs of the foreign country.

 

Everybody is to be blamed for trying to block the water, its human instinct, on top of that nobody would have known flooding would be this bad. Its nonsense that flood water would have cleared in 3-4 days given how much water is coming out from the dams.

[mike324]

35 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

 

I see you mis-read my post. I said "is it not the military responsibility to help out?". Your reply simply confirmed my question that military all over the world help out in times of natural calamities. I simply asked if the OTT adoration of the RTA is excessive for just doing their job. 

 

I dont need to smear the RTA. They are doing ok by themselves.

 

I apologize for misreading! But yes why can't we give credit where its due? And no its not over the top, how many times has the country thank soldiers for their help? Heck the flood was probably the only time where citizens praise the soldiers. Again you are just trying to find ways to smear the army in all the threads no matter the topic.

[Thaidream]

I would say that neither Yingluck or Abhisit or any politician in Thailand or anywhere else will be held responsible for any decision they make whatever the consequences. unless genocide This has nothing to do with Democracy and whether the Junta was replaced by an elected government nothing would change.

Look at the history of America- it is rife with elected governments that have made decisions that have sent thousands to their deaths and proved ultimately to be wrong. Some recent examples are both the American intervention in Vietnam and Iraq. While supported by Congressional acquiescence -history has ultimately been proven that the decisions were incorrect. Then the question becomes should an individual politician- President- or other be held personally responsible or should the Nation bear a collective responsibility.

The only way a 'leader' of a country can be currently held responsible is if a case is filed with the International Court of Justice and that person convicted.

However in the past countries have accepted collective responsibility for situations such as the Holocaust (Germany has paid reparations); the American actions against Native Americans (Compensation and laws amended) and the internment of Japanese-America citizens during World War II (Compensation paid).

It might be interesting to see what type of decisions a leader would make if they were help personally accountable for these decisions. I have a feeling most wars would suddenly stop.

[LUSHGOAT]

What a load of bull its unreal what will they try to blame her for next oh maybe she is responsible for the floods in New Orleans too yeh sure I reckon it was Yingluck who did it. Anyway she is a beautiful looking lady and good luck to her fighting these accusations