Teachers without visa or permit

[cumgranosalum]

I've just been in touch with some schools to provide classes for our business and having sorted everything out asked just to check their documents.

I was casually informed that none of the teachers had work permits or even a visa.

i was advised that this was the norm and that any teacher working a short contract in the corporate sector is unlikely to have either visa or work permit - or if they have it won't cover them for the task at a factory.

 

can anyone suggest a solution to this?

I have always played work permit by the book and now have serious concerns about immigration turing up at the place of work and marching the teacher off to jail

 

any suggestions?

[PoorSucker]

For short term there is a temporary 14 day work permit.

[Maestro]

For a two-week engagement, you can apply for the teacher for a 

WP.10 NOTIFICATION FOR ENGAGEMENT IN NECESSARY AND URGENT WORK UNDER SECTION 9

 

These are the official rules:

Urgent Work Acknowledgement rule BE 2545 - ilo-phuket.pdf

 

For an employment of a longer duration, you will have to get the teacher a regular work permit as an employee of your company.

 

[cumgranosalum]

 

The teachers - are needed for part time 4 to 8 hours per week - over about 10 weeks

Can I get them a permit for this - the school isn't interested.

This is OK on a tourist visa?

[cumgranosalum]

I don't want to employ a teacher - the schools offer to send someone in to run a course for a few weeks - but if that is illegal, I don't to get involved. 

I get the impression though that this is happening with the connivance of immigration and Dept labour.

 

So I think my best course is to approach the dept of labour - I get a lot of evasive answers from the schools I've contacted and asked about work permits - it looks like the majority are operating outside the law. If the dept say don't worry I'll get a school confirmed with them as OK?

[tonray]

4 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

I don't want to employ a teacher - the schools offer to send someone in to run a course for a few weeks - but if that is illegal, I don't to get involved. 

I get the impression though that this is happening with the connivance of immigration and Dept labour.

 

So I think my best course is to approach the dept of labour - I get a lot of evasive answers from the schools I've contacted and asked about work permits - it looks like the majority are operating outside the law. If the dept say don't worry I'll get a school confirmed with them as OK?

Look at some of the bigger players. You will have to pay more because they will have facilities for classrooms on their site. Siam, Wall Street English, etc. Give them a ring. The problem with getting teachers to come to your location is that most will be working illegally as the permits even if they have them specify a certain location for the work to be performed

[ldiablo72]

Why would you contact schools to provide classes for your business. That is not the purpose of schools, nor is it their business model. You would be better to post an opening on various websites like Ajarn or craigslist looking for a Native English Speaking teacher with a teachers license to work part-time. And be prepared to pay a decent hourly wage if you want a decent and real teacher. What do you expect to accomplish in a matter of 40-80 hours?

[brewsterbudgen]

There are lots of specialist schools that cover the corporate sector.  I work for one of them and we have a Corporate Department, but there are lots to choose from.  Google is your friend.

[BruceMangosteen]

1 hour ago, cumgranosalum said:

I don't want to employ a teacher - the schools offer to send someone in to run a course for a few weeks - but if that is illegal, I don't to get involved. 

I get the impression though that this is happening with the connivance of immigration and Dept labour.

 

So I think my best course is to approach the dept of labour - I get a lot of evasive answers from the schools I've contacted and asked about work permits - it looks like the majority are operating outside the law. If the dept say don't worry I'll get a school confirmed with them as OK?

 

It's illegal. Immigration and Labor simply don't have the resources to crack down on it. Teachers can work for "legitimate" agencies and secure VISA's and WP's and be assigned to random locations as long as they are working for said agent. The process involves work, something which most "agencies" try to avoid. No point in contacting Labor yourself, again, there is no one there who cares or is qualified to give professional advice. Your good faith effort to develop your employee's English skills is not appreciated in Thailand. "Where's the money?" is the overriding consideration. The money is in the agents pocket. The "teachers" they send are quite often not dependable as well. Just forget it is my advice. Anyone who wants to learn English has to really be motivated themselves, not pushed to do so. Good luck. "What would you like to order?". You could always  hire a Filipino to deal with the English calls.

[brewsterbudgen]

3 minutes ago, BruceMangosteen said:

 

It's illegal. Immigration and Labor simply don't have the resources to crack down on it. Teachers can work for "legitimate" agencies and secure VISA's and WP's and be assigned to random locations as long as they are working for said agent. The process involves work, something which most "agencies" try to avoid. No point in contacting Labor yourself, again, there is no one there who cares or is qualified to give professional advice. Your good faith effort to develop your employee's English skills is not appreciated in Thailand. "Where's the money?" is the overriding consideration. The money is in the agents pocket. The "teachers" they send are quite often not dependable as well. Just forget it is my advice. Anyone who wants to learn English has to really be motivated themselves, not pushed to do so. Good luck. "What would you like to order?". You could always  hire a Filipino to deal with the English calls.

 

I agree that contacting the Departement of Labour would be useless and most likely counter-productive.

 

There is however a big market in English for corporate use.  We currently have contracts with the likes of SCG, Toyota, Kasikorn Bank and many other companies who want to improve their staff's English.

[BruceMangosteen]

4 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

I agree that contacting the Departement of Labour would be useless and most likely counter-productive.

 

There is however a big market in English for corporate use.  We currently have contracts with the likes of SCG, Toyota, Kasikorn Bank and many other companies who want to improve their staff's English.

and do the people you send have the proper VISA and Work Permits? Thanks....for being honest with us...OO and God Bless You also. 

[brewsterbudgen]

1 hour ago, BruceMangosteen said:

and do the people you send have the proper VISA and Work Permits? Thanks....for being honest with us...OO and God Bless You also. 

 

Naturally.

[cumgranosalum]

3 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

There are lots of specialist schools that cover the corporate sector.  I work for one of them and we have a Corporate Department, but there are lots to choose from.  Google is your friend.

Yes - but it would appear that none of them actually have a work permit that covers working outside the school?

[brewsterbudgen]

7 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

Yes - but it would appear that none of them actually have a work permit that covers working outside the school?

 The better ones do.

[cumgranosalum]

19 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 The better ones do.

Sorry but I think you are wrong - major company told me yesterday that their off-site work not only has no work permit but also no visa.

 

I can't see how comapnies can continue to support what appears to be a major scam - this needs investigating.

[BruceMangosteen]

8 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

Sorry but I think you are wrong - major company told me yesterday that their off-site work not only has no work permit but also no visa.

 

I can't see how comapnies can continue to support what appears to be a major scam - this needs investigating.

 

I don't see the scam? The company retains an agent to provide instructors of English for their employees. It's the agents and instructor's duty to secure the proper VISA and WP. This stuff about working off site only applies to an actual "school" and in reality, isn't at issue. If you are working for an agency you are often working off site as said "site" is the agents home or some office, not a school. The fact the agent/agency/"school" tells the corporate personnel person a set of lies is expected and just the way of life here. The only scam is if the agent doesn't pay the instructor and doesn't face violence as a result. 

[brewsterbudgen]

Sorry but I think you are wrong - major company told me yesterday that their off-site work not only has no work permit but also no visa.
 
I can't see how comapnies can continue to support what appears to be a major scam - this needs investigating.

I'm just speaking from my 12 years experience of working as a teacher in Bangkok, including corporate training. There are plenty of language institutes that follow the rules.

[cumgranosalum]

8 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

I'm just speaking from my 12 years experience of working as a teacher in Bangkok, including corporate training. There are plenty of language institutes that follow the rules.

 

 

I'm not convince at all - I think that even some of the teachers think they are "legal" as they move from company to company. I know there are extensions for long-term work involving more than one company, but this whole thing is a mess.
I think it needs a change in the law.

 

I'm sure immigration and labour dept are not interested so i will have to think of some other way of getting to the bottom of this - in the mean time the vast majority of companies appear to be paying for English - and other language courses - that are carried out illegally.

 

If you know of a visa or permit that covers this work I'd be interested to know, because all the companies I've approached - and that includes "big names" seem to flimflam on this subject. 

 

[cumgranosalum]

1 hour ago, BruceMangosteen said:

 

I don't see the scam? The company retains an agent to provide instructors of English for their employees. It's the agents and instructor's duty to secure the proper VISA and WP. This stuff about working off site only applies to an actual "school" and in reality, isn't at issue. If you are working for an agency you are often working off site as said "site" is the agents home or some office, not a school. The fact the agent/agency/"school" tells the corporate personnel person a set of lies is expected and just the way of life here. The only scam is if the agent doesn't pay the instructor and doesn't face violence as a result. 

do you have the details of these agencies - Ive been approaching the private language schools who supply teachers to the corporate sector, but it seems none have legal cover..

I'm not naming names but there are "well-known" companies involved

 

here is a quote from an article about agancies on Ajarn.com

 

"I felt it was time to revisit the whole TPA debate having read this horror story about a Thai agent who actually forged visas for two of his foreign teaching staff and thought they could get away with it.

And the reason / excuse the agent gave upon his arrest? "The Thai visa process is an overcomplicated process and sometimes agencies like mine bend the rules to try to simplify matters and speed things up" 

The two unfortunate teachers, blissfully unaware of their crime, were stopped by airport immigration and ended up doing jail time in Bangkok. The mind boggles. Let's all hope and pray that this is an isolated case because no teacher deserves that sort of punishment, regardless of how naive they were."

 

Now I'm sure they are not all like that but how do I tell?

[brewsterbudgen]

 
I'm not convince at all - I think that even some of the teachers think they are "legal" as they move from company to company. I know there are extensions for long-term work involving more than one company, but this whole thing is a mess.
I think it needs a change in the law.
 
I'm sure immigration and labour dept are not interested so i will have to think of some other way of getting to the bottom of this - in the mean time the vast majority of companies appear to be paying for English - and other language courses - that are carried out illegally.
 
If you know of a visa or permit that covers this work I'd be interested to know, because all the companies I've approached - and that includes "big names" seem to flimflam on this subject. 
 

It's certainly a grey area and like many things in Thailand surrounded in ambiguity and nuance. The fact that Immigration and Labour may turn a blind eye to some irregularities regarding work permits is just how things work here. I applaud you for wanting to do things by the letter of law. Good luck!