Bore hole advice

[Anythingleft?]

10 hours ago, Anythingleft? said:

if you want to do it correctly and set up an energy efficient, long lasting and fairly maintenance free system

 

8 hours ago, Strange said:

Submersible will work at any depth, so depth in regards to this pump its not a concern. Same with water height

Clearly pointed out in the first instance, however if you do not care to set the system up correctly you could put any old crap down there and still get water. If power consumption and pump longevity is a factor then no, you are completely left of field

[chiang mai]

9 hours ago, Litlos said:

Even if your borehole is 4 inch all the way down there is probably no way a 4 inch submersible will fit in the hole.  So then you are looking for a 2 or 3 inch submersible which is starting to get specialised and if available in Thailand?  We have a 6 inch well bore with a Franklin 4 inch submersible that works well.  Normally for submersibles there is clearance between the pump casing and the wellbore.  The other common submersible is Grundfos.  If you do find something they normally state their cable length.  The Franklin is a 3 wire cable as the starter is on the surface.  In Aust we used to extend the cables with heavy duty PVC/PVC and use a Scotchcast.  Generally the supplied cables are fairly soft PVC and prone to damage.  The controller/starter on the Franklin runs off our storage tank level for stop/start of the submersible.

 

Realistically it is sounding like it may just be a whole lot easier to stick with the jet type pump.

 

Cheers

 

3 inch submersibles are readily available at Global House and similar.

[chiang mai]

8 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Since Dec 2015 we have a 4" borehole at least 40 m deep.

We sank a 3" submersible pump, 750 W (1 HP).

Outlet (2"?) reduced to 1".

8 * 5m = 40 m of 1" PVC pipe down.

 

This pump (smallest submersible we found) is still too strong for a single outlet (garden watering)!

 

We fill a tank (8 m above ground with it).

There was serious concern it could burst our 1/2" pipe assembly to the tank

Fortunately it does not (I do not fill the tank completely, so no closing valve will shut the flow, all manual).

The pump was connected with about 50 m of three wire cable at the shop (forgot the diameter).

The pump cost 9500 Baht incl. control unit, a "better" quality Chinese thing (the first even cheaper  model broke after 4 months).

Highest quality is about twice the price.

 

(to see color picture: click on picture, then right click., "Show ..." or the like)

 

Drilling was a terrible mess. A one day job.

(watch in youtube to see colors)

 

The final:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDaaN1RUFig

 

 

Your pressure problem comes from reducing a 2 inch outlet at the pump down to 1 inch and then you throttle even further to half inch at the outlet, you should be able to water the moon with that sort of pressure!  Consider replacing the long run of 1 inch with two inch and increasing your outlet pipe to 3/4 inch. I pull on a 1 inch pipe from 15 metres and then throttle to 1/2 inch at the sprinkler head, that's a reduction of 50% and I have excellent pressure, your reduction from 2 inch to 1/2 inch over a long run is excessive. Benefits for you, apart from longer pump life is you'll be increasing the amount of water you put on your garden, by 50%.

[bankruatsteve]

Nothing is controlled other than flipping a few valves such that the bore pump becomes the water source.  There is no pressure sensor so it's plug in the pump to start and unplug to stop.  Otherwise, the village mains will fill a storage tank with a pressure pump to the house or whatever.  The village mains are almost never enough pressure to get a sprinkler past about 2 meter diameter (usually not even that) which is why we use the bore pump.

 

During the dry season, the bore pump might get used an average 1 hour per day.  So, it seems the decision will be the purchase cost versus the energy for a small submersible.  

 

The internet that I've seen shows the smallest submersible at 1/3 HP.  Does anybody have one of those and does it handle your needs?

s

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Nothing is controlled other than flipping a few valves such that the bore pump becomes the water source.  There is no pressure sensor so it's plug in the pump to start and unplug to stop.  Otherwise, the village mains will fill a storage tank with a pressure pump to the house or whatever.  The village mains are almost never enough pressure to get a sprinkler past about 2 meter diameter (usually not even that) which is why we use the bore pump.

 

During the dry season, the bore pump might get used an average 1 hour per day.  So, it seems the decision will be the purchase cost versus the energy for a small submersible.  

 

The internet that I've seen shows the smallest submersible at 1/3 HP.  Does anybody have one of those and does it handle your needs?

s

 

A 1/3 HP pump is very small, I would have thought that a minimum requirement for a well pump at that depth would be 0.75, preferably 1.0, the cost of the latter in terms of power consumption is about 3.2 baht per hour.

[Strange]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

Your pressure problem comes from reducing a 2 inch outlet at the pump down to 1 inch and then you throttle even further to half inch at the outlet, you should be able to water the moon with that sort of pressure!  Consider replacing the long run of 1 inch with two inch and increasing your outlet pipe to 3/4 inch. I pull on a 1 inch pipe from 15 metres and then throttle to 1/2 inch at the sprinkler head, that's a reduction of 50% and I have excellent pressure, your reduction from 2 inch to 1/2 inch over a long run is excessive. Benefits for you, apart from longer pump life is you'll be increasing the amount of water you put on your garden, by 50%.

 

Chiang mai, this will not solve his problem of severe unckecked overpressure. I agree that choking the size at the pump is bad and its a lot of wasted water volume, the problem will remain and may even become more dangerous. 

 

You say you "Pull" on a 1" pipe from 15 meters, I'm assuming you have a Jet pump? If so, then its in a completely different ball game and can not be compared. Submersible Pumps are way more efficient & powerful. 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Chiang mai, this will not solve his problem of severe unckecked overpressure. I agree that choking the size at the pump is bad and its a lot of wasted water volume, the problem will remain and may even become more dangerous. 

 

You say you "Pull" on a 1" pipe from 15 meters, I'm assuming you have a Jet pump? If so, then its in a completely different ball game and can not be compared. Submersible Pumps are way more efficient & powerful. 

 

Sorry, I should have written that I pull from 9 metres in a 15 metre bore hence no, that particular pump is centrifugal. But I don't agree that his overpressure problem cannot be reduced, perhaps not eliminated completely if he has bought a massively oversized pump but it can be made less risky by reducing the throttling.

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Sorry, I should have written that I pull from 9 metres in a 15 metre bore hence no, that particular pump is centrifugal. But I don't agree that his overpressure problem cannot be reduced, perhaps not eliminated completely if he has bought a massively oversized pump but it can be made less risky by reducing the throttling.

 

But thats the thing, its not massively oversized, its massively uncontrolled. Increasing the volume increases the danger if it bursts and in the guys situation, the pressure will be the same. A submersible pump is massive overkill to fill a storage tank unless its required because of water depth, and even then it does not change the fact that there needs to be a system in place to use the thing safely and to its fullest potential. 

[Strange]

45 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Nothing is controlled other than flipping a few valves such that the bore pump becomes the water source.  There is no pressure sensor so it's plug in the pump to start and unplug to stop.  Otherwise, the village mains will fill a storage tank with a pressure pump to the house or whatever.  The village mains are almost never enough pressure to get a sprinkler past about 2 meter diameter (usually not even that) which is why we use the bore pump.

 

During the dry season, the bore pump might get used an average 1 hour per day.  So, it seems the decision will be the purchase cost versus the energy for a small submersible.  

 

The internet that I've seen shows the smallest submersible at 1/3 HP.  Does anybody have one of those and does it handle your needs?

 

What brand pump do you have now? Is it a yellow one? 

 

1/2 HP 12 GPM @ 80 Psi @ 200 ft water depth with 1 1/4" outlet.....

 

So yeah I'm sure that will be fine for a garden hose. 

[Ace of Pop]

And then you move to a Seaside quiet area like I've done ,with plentiful water on tap and remember all thee money and hours you spent buggering about with water. I even have time for a swim these daysTwas nice but I'm past all that thank nature.Grunfoss is the pump that lasted best I found


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[KhunBENQ]

12 hours ago, Strange said:

You need a Bladder Tank, A pressure Switch (Cut-In 40 PSI, Cut-Out 60 PSI) or adjustable, Couple cheap check valves, and a overpressure relief valve.

Now I know what you mean.

I should have mentioned that we already had an installation with a water pump to the house. The pump has an attached small pressure tank.

The pump get its water from a 2000 l elevated tank which was fed by community water.

Due to the drought and decreasing quality of incoming water we decided to get independent and feed the tank from an own source.

So no need to do complete parallel installation. Simple manual filling the tank.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[Litlos]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 8:48 PM, Strange said:

 

Yeah its hard to find submersible pumps smaller than 4" but I've seen a lot of chinese pumps now in all the big home shops. 

 

Another thing to consider is the cost for a 4" franklin and controller vs replacing the jet. Them franklins and grundfos are expensive over here. 

 

So your entire setup is controlled by the level in your water tank? How big is the tank? Shouldnt need a storage tank at all with a 4" franklin. Is there more to it than that? 

This is for the whole of the property, house gardens etc.  It would be a bad idea to start and stop a submersible to keep system pressure up every time someone flushed a toilet.  So there is a 1000 litre tank which runs from about 1/2 to full to bring on the submersible and a small pressurising pump/accumulator supplies the water system.   At work we run the submersible pump 24/7, but the electricity is free so no big deal and we also use it to pressurise the firewater system.

 

Cheers

[Strange]

1 minute ago, Litlos said:

This is for the whole of the property, house gardens etc.  It would be a bad idea to start and stop a submersible to keep system pressure up every time someone flushed a toilet.  So there is a 1000 litre tank which runs from about 1/2 to full to bring on the submersible and a small pressurising pump/accumulator supplies the water system.   At work we run the submersible pump 24/7, but the electricity is free so no big deal and we also use it to pressurise the firewater system.

 

Did you read my other posts in regards to this and see the pic I supplied? Its not what Im saying at all. I agree its impossible to use a submersible like you say, but you do not need a storage tank and secondary pressure pump with your setup at all. 

 

Not sure where you work, but I 300% guarantee you that your firewater system will use a pressure WAY higher than what a home requires, and it will be pressure controlled. It will be shut off by some kind of pressure switch. Something will be there to insure safety of the system and people around it. Either that or it has a bypass type pressure regulator that will allow it to run 24/7 while venting overpressure.

 

You are losing a lot of potential with your current system and your outlay costs just to fill a 1000L tank. Not to mention running 2 pumps. 

 

Have a look at my other post in here and the pic I supplied. 

 

[Strange]

21 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Now I know what you mean.

I should have mentioned that we already had an installation with a water pump to the house. The pump has an attached small pressure tank.

The pump get its water from a 2000 l elevated tank which was fed by community water.

Due to the drought and decreasing quality of incoming water we decided to get independent and feed the tank from an own source.

So no need to do complete parallel installation. Simple manual filling the tank.

 

If you are happy with your system then thats what matters. But from your other posts it sounds like you use the submersible for more than just filling the storage tank. If you add a bladder tank and pressure switch to your submersible system (costs hardly anything) then supply your water tank, you can use a mechanical float switch to regulate water height in your storage tank without having to touch anything or run wiring up there for a sensor to turn off the pump. Right now Im pretty sure you can not use a mechanical float valve because there is way too much pressure. 

 

You can then use the water (after the bladder tank) anywhere else as well and run it non stop and never have to worry about overpressure again. Garden hose, sprinklers, whatever and can run for hours no problem. The small house pressure pumps are not made for and do not produce enough volume for anything other than flushing toilets and taking a shower. The submersible you have can do all that, plus water the grass, garden hose, all of it. 

[carlyai]

Six years, no problems, and second hand at that (cheapskate 555). Seems good to me.

Yes, probably submersible is the best.

I installed a Luck Star jet pump some time ago (3 odd years), and it has been abused by the builders, and even the painters we caught pouring their paint cleaning dregs into the bore, but the pump has been good.

The Lucky Star (evidently prone to the rusting out if you don't have enough clearance and air flow under the pump), has a tank and pressure switch and can be controlled by a float switch in a storage tank. That's what I have plus a bit.

Sometimes, only once or twice during the last dry spell, I think some pebbles get stuck in the stop valve at the bottom of the jet venture and the pump stays on. To fix that you shake the pipes near the bump body up and down ....all good.

Maybe nothing ever happens to a submersible pump, but I'd rather shake the crap out of some pipes on a jet pump rather than pull up submersible.

I originally sunk 2 bores, in different parts of the land, and connected up another Lucky Star jet pump. Now if the house main jet pump fails, I have a standby.

Also when we are away, the brother in law knows how to get the water flowing again by shaking the pipes up and down. Don't know what theyde do with a submersible.

So my advice, to keep it simple, is to buy the same type of jet pump, and referbish the old one and keep as standby. Also automatically control your pump. [emoji3]

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[Artisi]

I've purposely ignored all the previous posts for the simple reason that you have, I assume a good 6 years from your 2 pipe jet pump arrangement - so just replace it - sleep easy as you know it works and it's a simple replacement exercise - also replace the well ejector - as this could  / more than likely showing signs of erosion / wear after 6 years.

 

[Crossy]

Indeed Artisi, I'm also a member of the "if it 'aint busted don't fix it" school, what he has works fine so just replace what's broken.

 

It's also worth looking at servicing the jet pump, a set of bearings, seals and a capacitor won't break the bank and will be good for another 6 years :)

 

Although we don't have a bore we do have five pumps of various sizes up to 3 horse which keep Wifeys garden green. The Grundfos that supplies the house is still going strong after 5 years, the others are all LuckyPro cheapies which have had various bearings and capacitors over the years, never actually replaced a whole pump :)

 

 

[carlyai]

I've purposely ignored all the previous posts for the simple reason that you have, I assume a good 6 years from your 2 pipe jet pump arrangement - so just replace it - sleep easy as you know it works and it's a simple replacement exercise - also replace the well ejector - as this could  / more than likely showing signs of erosion / wear after 6 years.
 

That's not nice .....ignoring my post....but I've said the same thing. [emoji39]

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[Strange]

13 hours ago, Artisi said:

I've purposely ignored all the previous posts for the simple reason that you have,

 

There is some good information to be read with actual user experience and problems with Submersible pumps. 

 

100% agree that its better to replace the pump though. 

[Artisi]

10 hours ago, Strange said:

 

There is some good information to be read with actual user experience and problems with Submersible pumps. 

 

100% agree that its better to replace the pump though. 

experience and problems -- been there and done that over 40+ years in the pump industry.

[Artisi]

10 hours ago, carlyai said:

That's not nice .....ignoring my post....but I've said the same thing.

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when I say ignore I don't mean ignore in the sense of not reviewing and considering what has been said, it is rather not taking to heart and acting on all the advice  -- as I indicated in my reply.

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, Artisi said:

when I say ignore I don't mean ignore in the sense of not reviewing and considering what has been said, it is rather not taking to heart and acting on all the advice  -- as I indicated in my reply.

 

OK.... It read like you are above it all. You may have 40 years, but others don't have any, and information is important. 

[carlyai]

when I say ignore I don't mean ignore in the sense of not reviewing and considering what has been said, it is rather not taking to heart and acting on all the advice  -- as I indicated in my reply.

Sorry Artisi, I was only joking....I don't care who ignores me...SWMBO does it all the time [emoji3].

In fact I'm pretty sure you were my mentor with jet pumps, when I started a thread with something like Jet Pumps Can't Possibly Work.

You showed me the light. Or was one who contributed.



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[Artisi]

14 hours ago, carlyai said:

Sorry Artisi, I was only joking....I don't care who ignores me...SWMBO does it all the time .

In fact I'm pretty sure you were my mentor with jet pumps, when I started a thread with something like Jet Pumps Can't Possibly Work.

You showed me the light. Or was one who contributed.



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I was well aware of your tongue in cheek reply ?