May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

Just now, Grouse said:

Not a bad idea for the railways, utilities and post office in public ownership

 

scrapping tuition fees would be good but only for proper degrees....

 

Tuition fees should be scrapped for Degrees with a strong vocational link, eg, science, business, and medical.

[mommysboy]

I just sincerely doubt the Government's competence in handling Brexit, or restructuring the UK economy.

 

With regard to Brexit: the evidence is already there, because they sought to pursue an exit that is not mandated.

 

With restructuring the economy: well central to the Tory philosophy is the belief that business is best done without the assistance or hindrance of government.

 

Labour is not popular, because it is unelectable in its present circumastances.  It's a pity because it appears to be more in sync with industry needs; this is somewhat ironic.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I just sincerely doubt the........................ double posting error.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by mommysboy

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Tuition fees should be scrapped for Degrees with a strong vocational link, eg, science, business, and medical.

Engineering please  ....

 

(materials, chemical, pharmaceutical, semiconductor, digital, RF, robotic, electrical, electronic, mechanical, fluid, quality, manufacturing, process, control, audio, video, optical, environmental, nuclear, marine, hydraulic, civil, seismic, transmission, safety. Automotive, .... to start with ?

[Grouse]

In the U.K., we really need to ditch inverted snobbery. We need to make differential calculus cool. The finest birds prefer engineers....Cool guys prefer blondes with maths PhDs! You know the sort of thing...

[Flustered]

24 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Not a bad idea for the railways, utilities and post office in public ownership

 

scrapping tuition fees would be good but only for proper degrees....

Which of course could not happen if we stayed in the EU.

 

Cake and eat it?

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Which of course could not happen if we stayed in the EU.

 

Cake and eat it?

Are you inferring that everything in the EU must be privately owned?

 

Or are you saying it's impossible for an EU state to renationalise sectors?

 

Unsure about this. Can someone clarify? 

 

If that hat is the case then that is another element of the EU that I am unhappy with.

 

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/8231336

 

Is this correct?

 

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-renationalise-railways-61180

 

or this?

 

I wonder what happened to all the billions raised? Do we have a sovereign fund where all the proceeds are stashed?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Grouse

[Flustered]

A few years old but still relevant.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/renationalise-railways-what-no-one-will-tell-you-we-cant-while-were-eu

 

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-membership-means-no-renationalisation/

Edited May 11, 2017 by Flustered

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, Flustered said:

A few years old but still relevant.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/renationalise-railways-what-no-one-will-tell-you-we-cant-while-were-eu

 

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/09/eu-membership-means-no-renationalisation/

Interesting! I'm still confused though...More research methinks

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"This marks a worrying trend for an industry in which some skills are already in such short supply, that British firms are offering non-UK nationals an average of 28 per cent more than local applicants in order to fill job vacancies, according to Hired."

 

Perhaps if those companies increased salaries by 28% for local as well as foreign people, more UK people would be encouraged to train in these fields - eventually resulting in fewer shortages of suitably trained staff within the UK?

"Ah" Well these remoaners,who would give preference to non-British citizens,have some powerful supporters.

 

 

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nontabury said:

"Ah" Well these remoaners,who would give preference to non-British citizens,have some powerful supporters.

 

 

I would give preference to those who can actually do the job. Not some semi-literate, dumbed down, celebrity obsessed yob ?

[ilostmypassword]

52 minutes ago, Grouse said:

In the U.K., we really need to ditch inverted snobbery. We need to make differential calculus cool. The finest birds prefer engineers....Cool guys prefer blondes with maths PhDs! You know the sort of thing...

Someone should make a video game featuring this alternative universe. You know, the kind of thing mathematicians, engineers, chemists and other people with useful knowledge play. You know, nerds.

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

The story is somewhat doomy, but not all gloomy. The economic aspect comprised just about all of the remain argument and while there are valid concerns, I think that leavers with any reasonable knowledge understand the potential implications of these. But, as I have said before, I believe that the majority (of the majority), felt that the economy was not the deciding factor in the referendum.  

Being sold a pup with ribbons and bows.

[nauseus]

29 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Being sold a pup with ribbons and bows.

No idea what the expression means - can you help me?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

No idea what the expression means - can you help me?

 

The closest that I can find is here.

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sell_someone_a_pup

 

From an old swindle, where one would be sold a bag purportedly containing a piglet, but which actually contained a puppy. Compare pig in a poke.

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

No idea what the expression means - can you help me?

You are asking a lot. Normally you only get sound bites and no back up information or links.

 

I think its a case of trying hard to look intellectual while in reality having no substance.

 

There are those who are optimistic and looking forward to the opportunities Brexit brings.

There are those who wanted Brexit but are pessimistic because they do not know what will happen.

There are those who did not want it to happen because they felt safe in the EU even though it cost the UK over £70 billion per year in fees and balance of payments deficit.

And there are those who did not want it to happen but have no idea or foundation in why they think that way.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

You are asking a lot. Normally you only get sound bites and no back up information or links.

 

I think its a case of trying hard to look intellectual while in reality having no substance.

 

There are those who are optimistic and looking forward to the opportunities Brexit brings.

There are those who wanted Brexit but are pessimistic because they do not know what will happen.

There are those who did not want it to happen because they felt safe in the EU even though it cost the UK over £70 billion per year in fees and balance of payments deficit.

And there are those who did not want it to happen but have no idea or foundation in why they think that way.

And there are those who believe that the loss of free trade will outweigh any alleged advantages to be gained by leaving.

There are those who believe that it won't be a catastrophe as some allege but that it will dampen the UK's economic growth.

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

And there are those who believe that the loss of free trade will outweigh any alleged advantages to be gained by leaving.

There are those who believe that it won't be a catastrophe as some allege but that it will dampen the UK's economic growth.

More than the £70+ billion pounds a year cost of being a member?

 

A £60 Billion pounds deficit in trade is not free trade....It's an economic failure.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Flustered

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

The closest that I can find is here.

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sell_someone_a_pup

 

From an old swindle, where one would be sold a bag purportedly containing a piglet, but which actually contained a puppy. Compare pig in a poke.

You did better than me Bill, all I got was......

 

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

The closest that I can find is here.

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sell_someone_a_pup

 

From an old swindle, where one would be sold a bag purportedly containing a piglet, but which actually contained a puppy. Compare pig in a poke.

Yes that is my understanding: basically being sold a dud, or something different and inferior to what you ordered.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

You did better than me Bill, all I got was......

 

 

Well coochie coochie coo. But who is selling the decorated doggie, and to whom?

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

More than the £70+ billion pounds a year cost of being a member?

 

A £60 Billion pounds deficit in trade is not free trade....It's an economic failure.

 

This is indeed a compelling argument at first sight.

 

But our trade imbalance is surely not wholly to do with being in EU- after all USA has one and is not a member.

 

If we don't import from the EU, we'll have to import from somewhere else.  And just because we leave does not necessarily imply that our exports will pick up, in fact they may decline as trading with the rest of the bloc will become more difficult.

 

The solution lies more in profoundly rebalancing our economy, and in particular re-building industry.

 

Sadly, I don't expect you to take one blind bit of notice.

 

 

[Flustered]

Oh I do take notice but see a different angle to the subject than you.

 

The belief was that the EU has been a great economic success story for the UK with statements such as "And there are those who believe that the loss of free trade will outweigh any alleged advantages to be gained by leaving.".

 

The free trade argument simply does not exist. There is no such thing as free trade.We can trade within the EU without tariffs or levies but it is not free trade and it is not a level playing field. Until such time that all EU countries pay the same wages to their workers and pay the same taxes and the same social benefits there will never be a level playing field.

 

By coming out of the EU, we can set up out own trade agreements with countries instead of having to use the ones agreed by the EU negotiations committee or whoever negotiates the EU trade deals for us. As can be seen from the Canada trade deal fiasco, it is almost impossible for the committee that designed the horse and ended up with a camel to set up trade deals that suit everyone. You always end up with a compromise that helps some and punishes others.

 

Your solution of rebalancing our economy and re building industry sounds just like a Milliband/Corbyn statement. No substance and no details on how it should be done or paid for. 

 

Let me use a Tony Blair quote.....Let's just wait and see. You really cannot do anything else. The Tories will be returned with a massive majority because that is what the country wants, Labour are almost a dead party due to having returned to their Socialist roots rather than a pale imitation of the Tories. The LibDems are and always will be a joke and the SNP will have their seats in Scotland halved now that the Scottish have seen the Salmond and Sturgeon are all talk and no substance.

 

Sorry that you will not see it carried out your way, but that is democracy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (to coin a great Philosopher and Vulcan) 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Flustered

[pitrevie]

8 hours ago, Flustered said:

You are asking a lot. Normally you only get sound bites and no back up information or links.

 

I think its a case of trying hard to look intellectual while in reality having no substance.

 

There are those who are optimistic and looking forward to the opportunities Brexit brings.

There are those who wanted Brexit but are pessimistic because they do not know what will happen.

There are those who did not want it to happen because they felt safe in the EU even though it cost the UK over £70 billion per year in fees and balance of payments deficit.

And there are those who did not want it to happen but have no idea or foundation in why they think that way.

And there are those who want their country back even though they willingly participated in the Great British fire sale which resulted in many of those assets they were sold ending up being owned by foreign state owned companies.

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, Flustered said:

You are asking a lot. Normally you only get sound bites and no back up information or links.

 

I think its a case of trying hard to look intellectual while in reality having no substance.

 

There are those who are optimistic and looking forward to the opportunities Brexit brings.

There are those who wanted Brexit but are pessimistic because they do not know what will happen.

There are those who did not want it to happen because they felt safe in the EU even though it cost the UK over £70 billion per year in fees and balance of payments deficit.

And there are those who did not want it to happen but have no idea or foundation in why they think that way.

<0.5% of GDP; cheap at twice the price.

 

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, Flustered said:

More than the £70+ billion pounds a year cost of being a member?

 

A £60 Billion pounds deficit in trade is not free trade....It's an economic failure.

And you blame the deficit on whom exactly?

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Flustered said:

Oh I do take notice but see a different angle to the subject than you.

 

The belief was that the EU has been a great economic success story for the UK with statements such as "And there are those who believe that the loss of free trade will outweigh any alleged advantages to be gained by leaving.".

 

The free trade argument simply does not exist. There is no such thing as free trade.We can trade within the EU without tariffs or levies but it is not free trade and it is not a level playing field. Until such time that all EU countries pay the same wages to their workers and pay the same taxes and the same social benefits there will never be a level playing field.

 

By coming out of the EU, we can set up out own trade agreements with countries instead of having to use the ones agreed by the EU negotiations committee or whoever negotiates the EU trade deals for us. As can be seen from the Canada trade deal fiasco, it is almost impossible for the committee that designed the horse and ended up with a camel to set up trade deals that suit everyone. You always end up with a compromise that helps some and punishes others.

 

Your solution of rebalancing our economy and re building industry sounds just like a Milliband/Corbyn statement. No substance and no details on how it should be done or paid for. 

 

Let me use a Tony Blair quote.....Let's just wait and see. You really cannot do anything else. The Tories will be returned with a massive majority because that is what the country wants, Labour are almost a dead party due to having returned to their Socialist roots rather than a pale imitation of the Tories. The LibDems are and always will be a joke and the SNP will have their seats in Scotland halved now that the Scottish have seen the Salmond and Sturgeon are all talk and no substance.

 

Sorry that you will not see it carried out your way, but that is democracy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (to coin a great Philosopher and Vulcan) 

Be careful what you wish for; the Cons ARE selling you a pup

 

Take automotive manufacturing. What do you think WTO rules and no customs union do to supply chains?

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/01/17-year-high-british-car-manufacturing-global-demand-hits-record-levels/

 

and yes, the NEEDS of the many outweigh the needs of the few. You seem to confuse this with the opinions of the many which is not necessarily the same....

 

Jeremy Bentham invoked what he described as a ‘fundamental axiom, it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong.’

 

I'll take Bentham and his Utilitarianism over Spock in The Wrath of Khan any day ?

Edited May 12, 2017 by Grouse

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, Flustered said:

Oh I do take notice but see a different angle to the subject than you.

 

The belief was that the EU has been a great economic success story for the UK with statements such as "And there are those who believe that the loss of free trade will outweigh any alleged advantages to be gained by leaving.".

 

The free trade argument simply does not exist. There is no such thing as free trade.We can trade within the EU without tariffs or levies but it is not free trade and it is not a level playing field. Until such time that all EU countries pay the same wages to their workers and pay the same taxes and the same social benefits there will never be a level playing field.

 

By coming out of the EU, we can set up out own trade agreements with countries instead of having to use the ones agreed by the EU negotiations committee or whoever negotiates the EU trade deals for us. As can be seen from the Canada trade deal fiasco, it is almost impossible for the committee that designed the horse and ended up with a camel to set up trade deals that suit everyone. You always end up with a compromise that helps some and punishes others.

 

Your solution of rebalancing our economy and re building industry sounds just like a Milliband/Corbyn statement. No substance and no details on how it should be done or paid for. 

 

Let me use a Tony Blair quote.....Let's just wait and see. You really cannot do anything else. The Tories will be returned with a massive majority because that is what the country wants, Labour are almost a dead party due to having returned to their Socialist roots rather than a pale imitation of the Tories. The LibDems are and always will be a joke and the SNP will have their seats in Scotland halved now that the Scottish have seen the Salmond and Sturgeon are all talk and no substance.

 

Sorry that you will not see it carried out your way, but that is democracy. The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (to coin a great Philosopher and Vulcan) 

 

As I said not a blind bit of  notice.  And not one word deals with the subject of my posting.  You are like a porcupine that curls in to a little ball and presents a hundred different spikes.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Tuition fees should be scrapped for Degrees with a strong vocational link, eg, science, business, and medical.

Quite, retain the fees on the 'soft' degrees.

Maybe the EU will take it on board and scrap the fees on the 'soft' brexit.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"This marks a worrying trend for an industry in which some skills are already in such short supply, that British firms are offering non-UK nationals an average of 28 per cent more than local applicants in order to fill job vacancies, according to Hired."

 

Perhaps if those companies increased salaries by 28% for local as well as foreign people, more UK people would be encouraged to train in these fields - eventually resulting in fewer shortages of suitably trained staff within the UK?

Very good point, but in practice would never happen, once shortages were relieved salaries would stagnate and back to square one.

I would have thought that the differential would raise a discrimination issue. a bit like male and female salaries.