May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Let me tell you about the real selfish generation - those that were funded through University and paid grants, those who were able to purchase council housing at a knock-down price and then trade up in the property market, those that voted themselves triple locked pensions and fuel allowances (whilst the rest dealt with cuts), many of whom have enjoyed early retirement. And to pay for it the country has racked up massive debts, that if they continue will be unsustainable. When a country racks up massive debt it is effectively robbing from the future ... and all of it has to be paid for by who you describe as the "selfish generation" That is the generation who have to go into debt to pay for an education, who are facing the prospect of never owning a house due to house price inflation, who will retire in their 70's, and who will be paying ever increasing taxes to sustain the much larger and longer living older generation ... the one who created the mess that they find themselves in. The generation who thanked us by voting for Brexit, denying us the rights that they have enjoyed and creating less opportunity in the country at a time when that is the last thing that it needs. And when their Brexit heroine Theresa May tries to interfere with their triple lock benefits and suggests that they might want to help with their own care they are up in arms ... they expect the "selfish generation" to pay for that as well.

 

And before anybody starts ... NONE of these people fought in any wars worthy of the name or made any great sacrifices ... the lucky generation isn't just happy to succeed, it also wants the generations that follow to fail. And NONE of them did it for their grandchildren, most of whom don't want it. They did it so that in their dotage they would not have to sit beside a "smelly foreigner" in the cafe ... not sovereignty, control or any other nonsense that gets spouted on here. Because if these things really did matter they could have got out of the EU decades ago. 

 

So when you get criticised I suggest that you suck it up snowflakes 

 

Excellent.  I wouldn't want to tar the entire older generation, but feel certain that this applies to many, particularly tories needless to say.  Of particular note-and somewhat in defence- the older oldies would have grown up in post war austerity where life was indeed tough, and much of their productive life would have been blighted by the 70's.  This explains the obsession with German's and us 'Trots'.  Sadly in their old age they have become the prisoners of their negative past, and it's a devil of a job getting them to change. 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Excellent.  I wouldn't want to tar the entire older generation, but feel certain that this applies to many, particularly tories needless to say.  Of particular note-and somewhat in defence- the older oldies would have grown up in post war austerity where life was indeed tough, and much of their productive life would have been blighted by the 70's.  This explains the obsession with German's and us 'Trots'.  Sadly in their old age they have become the prisoners of their negative past, and it's a devil of a job getting them to change. 

My mother voted to stay as did many others, so I'm not directing it at all of them ... but the one's that did should be honest about why they voted - immigration - and stop lying about sovereignty, control, trade deals, the grand kids ... all of which are disingenuous ... if the people who voted Brexit really did it for sovereignty they could have pushed for that politically during the last 40 years ... this only became an issue when people started to notice foreigners in their towns, before then no one gave a toss.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

My mother voted to stay as did many others, so I'm not directing it at all of them ... but the one's that did should be honest about why they voted - immigration - and stop lying about sovereignty, control, trade deals, the grand kids ... all of which are disingenuous ... if the people who voted Brexit really did it for sovereignty they could have pushed for that politically during the last 40 years ... this only became an issue when people started to notice foreigners in their towns, before then no one gave a toss.

Absolutely.  I think as soon as money became tight, it became an issue.  Oddly enough, it is this sector of the electorate that has been least effected by austerity. QE benefited them.  How to defend them- well, once one has experienced poverty one never wants to go that way again.  Crushing austerity in formative years has a profound life-long effect.

[dick dasterdly]

And watching bbc news,  l'm getting bad-tempered again....

 

Apparently the eu is concerned to discuss those foreigners living in other eu countries .

 

Odd as May tried to come to an agreement on this subject a while ago, but was rebuffed by the eu....

 

Apparently (according to the bbc) the eu holds 'all the cards'.....

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Quite right. From an article in the Standard last week:
"And as for thwarting “the will of the people” as expressed in the referendum, consider this: by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year-olds. Given no change in the declared voting preferences of the old and the young that would give a majority for Remain."

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-business-must-get-off-the-fence-and-stop-brexit-a3564021.html

Good to hear that the frequent refrain of an 'aging' population isn't true.

[AlexRich]

30 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Good to hear that the frequent refrain of an 'aging' population isn't true.

Yes, and climate change was just a ploy by China to ruin the USA ... 

[goldenbrwn1]

 

The 6 items below are not my original contribution.  It was from another person on an entirely different forum and I saved it because it really does summarise what has to be discussed from today onward.

1. The EU will not allow the UK to be in the Single Market unless we accept Freedom of Movement.
2.  The UK doesn't accept Freedom of Movement so we're NOT in the Single Market.  That was easy.
3.  Both the EU and UK are members of the WTO, so we already have a tariff agreement in place.  Average non-food WTO tariffs are 3%.  If the EU wants to charge more the UK will sue them in the WTO.
4.  If the EU want to charge tariffs on UK goods then EU law requires the Irish border to be a hard border.  This is 100% up to the EU and has nothing to do with the UK.
5.  The UK can agree to let EU citizens reside in the UK under UK law.
6.  The EU don't have the ability to guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in EU member states - that's the right of the member state, not the EU.  The UK must negotiate with each of the 27 separately.

Items 5 and 6 are significant.  The rights of citizens from all sides living in each others countries is an easy one and could be settled in the first couple of days negotiations.  Britain will continue to welcome SKILLED people whom we need to make up for the shortfall in British skilled workers.
Britain will continue to welcome retirees PROVIDED they can pay their way without having to go cap in hand for financial support from British taxpayers.
We expect that attitude to be reciprocal across all 27 member states.
BUT, freedom of movement by unskilled EU citizens who have nothing to offer British employers MUST stop immediately.
As for our right to trade with the rest of the world, the current customs union prevents us from doing that.  This is restrictive and undemocratic.  It has to go.
All that is left is the final settlement of whatever Britain might still owe the EU IN ADDITION to the membership contributions that will continue until we are officially OUT in 2019.  The EU should also be aware that they will owe Britain a goodly amount in reparation for our share in the value of new buildings, real estate and institutions which we have also contributed to over the years.

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by goldenbrwn1

[Orac]

 
The 6 items below are not my original contribution.  It was from another person on an entirely different forum and I saved it because it really does summarise what has to be discussed from today onward.
1. The EU will not allow the UK to be in the Single Market unless we accept Freedom of Movement.
2.  The UK doesn't accept Freedom of Movement so we're NOT in the Single Market.  That was easy.
3.  Both the EU and UK are members of the WTO, so we already have a tariff agreement in place.  Average non-food WTO tariffs are 3%.  If the EU wants to charge more the UK will sue them in the WTO.
4.  If the EU want to charge tariffs on UK goods then EU law requires the Irish border to be a hard border.  This is 100% up to the EU and has nothing to do with the UK.
5.  The UK can agree to let EU citizens reside in the UK under UK law.
6.  The EU don't have the ability to guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in EU member states - that's the right of the member state, not the EU.  The UK must negotiate with each of the 27 separately.
Items 5 and 6 are significant.  The rights of citizens from all sides living in each others countries is an easy one and could be settled in the first couple of days negotiations.  Britain will continue to welcome SKILLED people whom we need to make up for the shortfall in British skilled workers.
Britain will continue to welcome retirees PROVIDED they can pay their way without having to go cap in hand for financial support from British taxpayers.
We expect that attitude to be reciprocal across all 27 member states.
BUT, freedom of movement by unskilled EU citizens who have nothing to offer British employers MUST stop immediately.
As for our right to trade with the rest of the world, the current customs union prevents us from doing that.  This is restrictive and undemocratic.  It has to go.
All that is left is the final settlement of whatever Britain might still owe the EU IN ADDITION to the membership contributions that will continue until we are officially OUT in 2019.  The EU should also be aware that they will owe Britain a goodly amount in reparation for our share in the value of new buildings, real estate and institutions which we have also contributed to over the years.
 

Just so I understand, are you proposing that freedom of movement should be scrapped for young people but still be available to retirees?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[goldenbrwn1]

18 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Just so I understand, are you proposing that freedom of movement should be scrapped for young people but still be available to retirees?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

I agree it's not perfect but it does make sense on most things. Anyone can nit pick over it but generally I think it's summerised very well.

[nontabury]

33 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Just so I understand, are you proposing that freedom of movement should be scrapped for young people but still be available to retirees?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

How I read this is ,Freedom of movement into the UK for required skilled workers will certainly be allowed. This we already knew.  As for those going in the opposite direction, that will be up to the individual countries. But do we know this for sure. Have the dictatorial Bureacrats in Brussels accepted this proposal?

[rockingrobin]

53 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

 

The 6 items below are not my original contribution.  It was from another person on an entirely different forum and I saved it because it really does summarise what has to be discussed from today onward.

1. The EU will not allow the UK to be in the Single Market unless we accept Freedom of Movement.
2.  The UK doesn't accept Freedom of Movement so we're NOT in the Single Market.  That was easy.
3.  Both the EU and UK are members of the WTO, so we already have a tariff agreement in place.  Average non-food WTO tariffs are 3%.  If the EU wants to charge more the UK will sue them in the WTO.
4.  If the EU want to charge tariffs on UK goods then EU law requires the Irish border to be a hard border.  This is 100% up to the EU and has nothing to do with the UK.
5.  The UK can agree to let EU citizens reside in the UK under UK law.
6.  The EU don't have the ability to guarantee the rights of UK citizens living in EU member states - that's the right of the member state, not the EU.  The UK must negotiate with each of the 27 separately.

Items 5 and 6 are significant.  The rights of citizens from all sides living in each others countries is an easy one and could be settled in the first couple of days negotiations.  Britain will continue to welcome SKILLED people whom we need to make up for the shortfall in British skilled workers.
Britain will continue to welcome retirees PROVIDED they can pay their way without having to go cap in hand for financial support from British taxpayers.
We expect that attitude to be reciprocal across all 27 member states.
BUT, freedom of movement by unskilled EU citizens who have nothing to offer British employers MUST stop immediately.
As for our right to trade with the rest of the world, the current customs union prevents us from doing that.  This is restrictive and undemocratic.  It has to go.
All that is left is the final settlement of whatever Britain might still owe the EU IN ADDITION to the membership contributions that will continue until we are officially OUT in 2019.  The EU should also be aware that they will owe Britain a goodly amount in reparation for our share in the value of new buildings, real estate and institutions which we have also contributed to over the years.

 

The issue about trade and WTO is out of date.Modern trade is not about tarriffs , but the elimination of non tarriff barriers, such as conformity and recognition. Carlos Ghosn when giving evidence to the parliament committe spelled it out, a six minute delay would be a disaster for Nissan.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Quite right. From an article in the Standard last week:
"And as for thwarting “the will of the people” as expressed in the referendum, consider this: by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year-olds. Given no change in the declared voting preferences of the old and the young that would give a majority for Remain."

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-business-must-get-off-the-fence-and-stop-brexit-a3564021.html

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Good to hear that the frequent refrain of an 'aging' population isn't true.

 

52 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Yes, and climate change was just a ploy by China to ruin the USA ... 

You're missing the point.

 

lamyai3 is just the latest poster to state that the older generation is dying out, and being replaced with young people.

 

I'm merely pointing out that we've previously been told that immigration is essential as there are far more people approaching retirement, than young people to pay for the 'multitude' of old people!

[rockingrobin]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

How I read this is ,Freedom of movement into the UK for required skilled workers will certainly be allowed. This we already knew.  As for those going in the opposite direction, that will be up to the individual countries. But do we know this for sure. Have the dictatorial Bureacrats in Brussels accepted this proposal?

How do you define skilled ?. If there is a shortage of low skilled workers to say pick fruit, just let that farm go bankrupt with its knock on affect throughout the community

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

And watching bbc news,  l'm getting bad-tempered again....

 

Apparently the eu is concerned to discuss those foreigners living in other eu countries .

 

Odd as May tried to come to an agreement on this subject a while ago, but was rebuffed by the eu....

 

Apparently (according to the bbc) the eu holds 'all the cards'.....

And the bbc is still pretending the eu cares about those living in other eu countries, whilst May is being difficult on this point !

[nontabury]

One of the conditions that I've read, is that the E.U. Intends to Demand,that NONE  E.U spouses of E.U citizens,must be given the automatic right to enter the U.K. with their spouse. And that T.M is prepared to accept this.  If this turns out to be correct.it's going to pxss off a large number of Brits here in Thailand (and elsewhere),who must comply with a whole range of requirements in order to settle back in the U.K with their Thai wives.

Edited June 19, 2017 by nontabury

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

I was undecided in 1975 but not anymore.

I think I was stoned in 1975. I voted against.

[evadgib]

Foreign Secretary attends the June 2017 EU Foreign Affairs Council

 

David Davis' opening remarks at the start of EU exit negotiations in Brussels

[rockingrobin]

58 minutes ago, nontabury said:

One of the conditions that I've read, is that the E.U. Intends to Demand,that NONE  E.U spouses of E.U citizens,must be given the automatic right to enter the U.K. with their spouse. And that T.M is prepared to accept this.  If this turns out to be correct.it's going to pxss off a large number of Brits here in Thailand (and elsewhere),who must comply with a whole range of requirements in order to settle back in the U.K with their Thai wives.

Was this a promise from the vote leave campaign

[rockingrobin]

Apprenticeship vacancies plummet by 99%

 

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking-apprenticeship-vacancy-adverts-plummet-to-0-5-percent-of-the-previous-month

[goldenbrwn1]

7 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Apprenticeship vacancies plummet by 99%

 

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking-apprenticeship-vacancy-adverts-plummet-to-0-5-percent-of-the-previous-month

If people wanted to read the guardian or independent , I'm quite sure they could find this themselves. That also goes for the daily mail and express drivel on the other side. Get a grip man. 

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

I think I was stoned in 1975. I voted against.

I was uncertain in 1975, now I'm not so sure  

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

You're missing the point.

 

lamyai3 is just the latest poster to state that the older generation is dying out, and being replaced with young people.

 

I'm merely pointing out that we've previously been told that immigration is essential as there are far more people approaching retirement, than young people to pay for the 'multitude' of old people!

Yes, and that is correct ... is it not possible that 3 million new pensioners could replace the 2 million who die by 2019? The fact is that we will have a much larger proportion of elderly people who are living longer than in the past. 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

Apprenticeship vacancies plummet by 99%

 

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking-apprenticeship-vacancy-adverts-plummet-to-0-5-percent-of-the-previous-month

I was about to say the debate here had reached a new nadir and go to bed.

 

Then this came up!

 

Now, if correct, this is a major shocker.

[rockingrobin]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I was about to say the debate here had reached a new nadir and go to bed.

 

Then this came up!

 

Now, if correct, this is a major shocker.

Here is the actual data

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/fe-data-library-apprenticeship-vacancies-archive#history

[jpinx]

Following up the commentary about mis-information during the campaigning, here's how they did it....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-40330022

 

 

[Khun Han]

Oh dear, Laura's back on the beeb pro-EU bandwaggon:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40321271

 

Any hopes that she was starting to establish herself as a political commentator of style, gravitas and independence appear to have been dashed: she's been reined in.

[goldenbrwn1]

11 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Apprenticeship vacancies plummet by 99%

 

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking-apprenticeship-vacancy-adverts-plummet-to-0-5-percent-of-the-previous-month

This so misleading. I'm not even going to say why because if you read the whole thing, you will also realise. 

 

Its has gone down from 13760 vacancies in April to just 10 in may with a drop of 99% or so month on month is that what you are saying??? ? I'm quite sure people on this forum don't just read the headline....

Edited June 20, 2017 by goldenbrwn1

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

11 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Apprenticeship vacancies plummet by 99%

 

http://feweek.co.uk/2017/06/19/breaking-apprenticeship-vacancy-adverts-plummet-to-0-5-percent-of-the-previous-month

This so misleading. I'm not even going to say why because if you read the whole thing, you will also realise. 

 

Its has gone down from 13760 vacancies in April to just 10 in may with a drop of 99% or so month on month is that what you are saying??? ? I'm quite sure people on this forum don't just read the headline....

Edited 11 minutes ago by goldenbrwn1

 

Project Fear is now in overdrive. The bad brexit news will come thick and fast. Theresa May will continue to suffer the worst public character assassination in modern political history. The political midget Corbyn will be bigged up at every opportunity as a great statesman and man of all the people who is being held up from his rightful role by the hapless May.

[pitrevie]

19 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Project Fear is now in overdrive. The bad brexit news will come thick and fast. Theresa May will continue to suffer the worst public character assassination in modern political history. The political midget Corbyn will be bigged up at every opportunity as a great statesman and man of all the people who is being held up from his rightful role by the hapless May.

Perhaps you could post the good news, it shouldn't take you long.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Oh dear, Laura's back on the beeb pro-EU bandwaggon:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40321271

 

Any hopes that she was starting to establish herself as a political commentator of style, gravitas and independence appear to have been dashed: she's been reined in.

The piece is entirely factual and rational. What on earth are you moaning about?