May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, Johnyo said:

I thought the low pound was helping manufacturers and exports.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-manufacturers-brexit-cuts-business?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

It is..well, a little.  It's just that Brexit is hampering trade.

[Basil B]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I'm not satisfied with the result.  Any chance of a re-run?

Be careful, you getting like a tiresome Scottish lass...

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'Are' appears to be turning in to 'were'.

 

And in any case it is about what is do-able and at what cost.  We all want.

 

Please give up on the 'latest polls' - bearing in mind the polls were so badly wrong before the referendum....

 

Other posters quoting an article from the Indepedent, based on comments made in 2010.... - is also a very bad argument!

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Please give up on the 'latest polls' - bearing in mind the polls were so badly wrong before the referendum....

 

Other posters quoting an article from the Indepedent, based on comments made in 2010.... - is also a very bad argument!

The polls were not badly wrong before the referendum. It's the pundits who were badly wrong.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Please give up on the 'latest polls' - bearing in mind the polls were so badly wrong before the referendum....

 

Other posters quoting an article from the Indepedent, based on comments made in 2010.... - is also a very bad argument!

The more it appears that public sentiment has changed then the more likely the forces against Brexit will feel righteous and emboldened- in fact that is what we are seeing right now.   Polls only reflect what is happening at a given time and I agree you are right in that regard.  The result was 'right' and is the only poll that counts, but there are a host of other factors to consider.  In fact winning a referendum looks increasingly the least important part.  Nobody voted for a mess.  In law there is the concept of frustration- this basically allows for the fact that a contract simply can't go ahead.

[jpinx]

54 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Does anyone seriously think that Brexit is still going to go ahead?

 

Most MP's are against it.

The Lords are against it.

The EU doesn't want it.

Scotland doesn't want it.

Ireland doesn't want it.

Big business doesn't want it.

Academia is against it.

 

And now... the electorate appears not to want it.

 

And quite simply it is not do-able without considerable disruption and cost.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the listing does not include "The democratic will of the electorate" -- which is the only yardstick that matters.    

The problem with the referendum result was that there only was a single point in time when that vote was cast, whereas there are numerous polls every day of varyingly questionable wordings and geographical spread.  For sure the polls have been getting it wrong on a consistent basis over the last few real elections - and not only in UK.   The other irony is that the referendum result was deemed as "advisory" by the act that enabled it, but subsequently elevated to "compulsory" by Cameron and May as PM's.   Watch for Westminster backsliding as the French impetus for EU "reform-from-within" takes hold and Germany joins in.  UK has plenty of wriggle-room to get out of the referendum vote, the problem was that the GE result backfired badly and there's going to have to be some unholy coalition to force through the FPTP system's real requirement -- "power at any price".

Edited July 4, 2017 by jpinx

[Flustered]

I think the overwhelming fact is that "Project Fear" has been very successful.

 

No one will know what will happen until an agreement (if any) has been signed and then the markets have to react.

 

Meanwhile, Project Fear gains pace and it is natural for people to be worried as they fear the unknown and anyone claiming to know what will happen in a year or so's time is only kidding themselves.

 

For me, it was never about the single market, it was about not letting Brussels turn us into a one size fits all with laws from an unelected body.

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I think the overwhelming fact is that "Project Fear" has been very successful.

 

No one will know what will happen until an agreement (if any) has been signed and then the markets have to react.

 

Meanwhile, Project Fear gains pace and it is natural for people to be worried as they fear the unknown and anyone claiming to know what will happen in a year or so's time is only kidding themselves.

 

For me, it was never about the single market, it was about not letting Brussels turn us into a one size fits all with laws from an unelected body.

The other point is that "Leave" has played an awful game.  The cracks appeared right from day one and just grow bigger.

[sandyf]

On 7/2/2017 at 2:22 PM, Flustered said:

Keep digging.

 

I do not make up Fake News and then try to talk my way out of it.

 

 

This post is in breach of the forum rules.

 

Wilbur Ross is a member of the White House administration, nothing was made up and no "Fake News".

[Flustered]

On 2017-6-30 at 9:47 AM, sandyf said:

There was no "punishment" quotes, the UK were reminded of their obligations , no different to you being reminded of your obligations each time you buy an airline ticket. Of course the brexiteer mentality will take a different view.

 

Going back to a comment I made earlier "The White House has ruled out a bilateral agreement any time soon.". It looks like the White House and the trade dept should get their act together.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-trade-deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html

 

On 2017-6-30 at 10:19 AM, sandyf said:

It was a comment not a quote, is your google broken.

 

Post-Brexit Britain would be pushed behind Europe in the race to secure a U.S. deal after Germany's Angela Merkel persuaded Trump that talks on a deal would be simpler than he thought, 

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-europe-idUKKBN17O07Z

 

52 minutes ago, sandyf said:

This post is in breach of the forum rules.

 

Wilbur Ross is a member of the White House administration, nothing was made up and no "Fake News".

You made a clear statement that the White House had ruled out any bi lateral talks and failed to show any link to a news or official source of this.

 

You then stated it was a comment.

 

No White House statement, no link to a news report, just a comment without reference.

 

However, he has stated that he prefers bi lateral agreements, a complete contrast to your comment.

 

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/314846-ross-prefers-inking-bilateral-trade-agreements

 

As I said, Fake News from you.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Basil B said:

Welcome to...

 

                   Page 500 

 

Nearly 7500 posts 

In 256 days...

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

 

 

You made a clear statement that the White House had ruled out any bi lateral talks and failed to show any link to a news or official source of this.

 

You then stated it was a comment.

 

No White House statement, no link to a news report, just a comment without reference.

 

However, he has stated that he prefers bi lateral agreements, a complete contrast to your comment.

 

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/314846-ross-prefers-inking-bilateral-trade-agreements

 

As I said, Fake News from you.

Please stop it - you 2.  We have some very interesting points coming out of this thread now that the initial heat of the discussion has died down but it's getting cluttered up with a bit of a vendetta between two guys who's contributions otherwise are usually valuable.  We all know about fake news, and we all know about checking your sources -- there's no need to bicker in here about that.

[Flustered]

All I asked for was proof of a statement and a link to verify a important claim.

 

Never happened.

[SheungWan]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

All I asked for was proof of a statement and a link to verify a important claim.

 

Never happened.

Bernard Bresslaw: 'I Only Arsked'.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're REALLY going back to comments made in 2010 to support your cause??

 

Clearly the Independent () considers this acceptable and its appreciated  by a few forum members....

This goon has done nothing to moderate his behaviour or words since then. You could consider him the ring master of the extreme Con Brexiteers 

[Johnyo]

Europe 2 - UK - O  is the early results in the negotiations. Below is Europe's second goal, right in the top corner of the net.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-ministers-move-to-allay-brexit-fears-over-access-to-medicines

 

 

[SheungWan]

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This goon has done nothing to moderate his behaviour or words since then. You could consider him the ring master of the extreme Con Brexiteers 

The problem with the reported speech from 2010 (and which he may or may not continue to adhere to) is that it goes beyond just a Hard Brexit position to that of openly wanting to destroy the EU. If that is still in place then questions must be asked what is he doing on the negotiating team and if so, does the Government have any serious intention of negotiating anything other than performing a circus act before they intend to walk out? Serious stuff as far as Theresa May is concerned and she will need to move quickly to sort it out.

Edited July 4, 2017 by SheungWan

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Which brings me back full circle to my original opinion that the powers that be would find a way around the referendum result.

 

I've already pointed out that the polls predicted a remain vote before the referendum - so trying to use their latest polls as evidence is a bit of a non-starter.....

Exactly. The same as the EU votes that went against the establishment in Holland, France and the Rep Ireland.  Though I don't think (hope) this  will be the case with the U.K. 

[ilostmypassword]

22 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Exactly. The same as the EU votes that went against the establishment in Holland, France and the Rep Ireland.  Though I don't think (hope) this  will be the case with the U.K. 

As I pointed out earlier, the polls showed a very tight race.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

[mommysboy]

41 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

As I pointed out earlier, the polls showed a very tight race.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-right-or-wrong-were-the-polls/

I do agree though that there is only one poll that counts!  it's done already.   Nevertheless, this latest poll does highlight that there is now a shift against Brexit, or at least in the form it has been presented.  Perhaps of more interest are the follow up questions, which by their nature would have engaged the participants in a more meaningful manner.  As far as one can tell from the report, we see that most popular is a 'walk back' , followed by single market retention.  And the majority thought a cross party approach was best.

 

The Gov. has ignored the wishes of the electorate to its great cost.  It is perhaps a forlorn hope that The Gov. will ditch its absolutist, dictatorial approach. I believe the silent majority will be telling however.  Surely, most normal people are beginning to understand that Brexit is not possible at this juncture in time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by mommysboy
additional info

[Khun Han]

20 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I do agree though that there is only one poll that counts!  it's done already.   Nevertheless, this latest poll does highlight that there is now a shift against Brexit, or at least in the form it has been presented.  Perhaps of more interest are the follow up questions, which by their nature would have engaged the participants in a more meaningful manner.  As far as one can tell from the report, we see that most popular is a 'walk back' , followed by single market retention.  And the majority thought a cross party approach was best.

 

The Gov. has ignored the wishes of the electorate to its great cost.  It is perhaps a forlorn hope that The Gov. will ditch its absolutist, dictatorial approach. I believe the silent majority will be telling however.  Surely, most normal people are beginning to understand that Brexit is not possible at this juncture in time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully most normal people understand that brexit is absolutely essential at this juncture in time because there won't be another opportunity once the EU is federalised and we're all working for Germany.

[ilostmypassword]

39 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Hopefully most normal people understand that brexit is absolutely essential at this juncture in time because there won't be another opportunity once the EU is federalised and we're all working for Germany.

This notion that Germany controls the EU or that France and Germany together do, is such nonsense. It's particularly nonsense in the case of EU countries like the UK that don't use the Euro.  I remember not too long ago how a single province in Belgium nearly derailed a treaty.  Did germans wearing jackboots cross the border and compel this province to submit?  No. It was bribed to agree to the treaty.  

So how exactly is Germany going to compel other member nations to agree to further federalization?

[mommysboy]

19 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

This notion that Germany controls the EU or that France and Germany together do, is such nonsense. It's particularly nonsense in the case of EU countries like the UK that don't use the Euro.  I remember not too long ago how a single province in Belgium nearly derailed a treaty.  Did germans wearing jackboots cross the border and compel this province to submit?  No. It was bribed to agree to the treaty.  

So how exactly is Germany going to compel other member nations to agree to further federalization?

Yeah. Absolute nonsense.  But I did say 'normal people'.

[jpinx]

56 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

This notion that Germany controls the EU or that France and Germany together do, is such nonsense. It's particularly nonsense in the case of EU countries like the UK that don't use the Euro.  I remember not too long ago how a single province in Belgium nearly derailed a treaty.  Did germans wearing jackboots cross the border and compel this province to submit?  No. It was bribed to agree to the treaty.  

So how exactly is Germany going to compel other member nations to agree to further federalization?

Check out how the Greeks were persuaded to abandon the Chinese loan a while ago....   

 

 

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

This notion that Germany controls the EU or that France and Germany together do, is such nonsense. It's particularly nonsense in the case of EU countries like the UK that don't use the Euro.  I remember not too long ago how a single province in Belgium nearly derailed a treaty.  Did germans wearing jackboots cross the border and compel this province to submit?  No. It was bribed to agree to the treaty.  

So how exactly is Germany going to compel other member nations to agree to further federalization?

Not nonsense, Germany and France together with 3 or 4 smaller countries can control it. 

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Check out how the Greeks were persuaded to abandon the Chinese loan a while ago....   

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, etc are in as week a position as the Greeks? Is anybody in Europe in as weak a position? Portugal comes close? 2 tiny and economically insignificant nations. 

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Are you suggesting that the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, etc are in as week a position as the Greeks? Is anybody in Europe in as weak a position? Portugal comes close? 2 tiny and economically insignificant nations. 

Net takers far outnumber net-contributors, whichever way you look at it or count it up. 

Also ....  it depends on what you mean by "member of the EU"  -- does that only count a nation that is a member of all the associated "bits"?

Edited July 4, 2017 by jpinx

[ilostmypassword]

3 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Net takers far outnumber net-contributors, whichever way you look at it or count it up. 

France, Germany, Italy and the UK are net contributors. Their combined populations are well over over half of the EU's total population. If you throw in Finland, Denmark, Sweden, and the Netherland it's probably over 60%. If you want you can also throw in the EFTA nations which are net contributors. So, no, net takers don't far outnumber net contributors. Quite the opposite. Unless you are counting by nations. Which means you think a country as tiny as Malta counts just as much as  say, France.Which is ridiculous.

.http://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-eu-members-net-contributions-and-net-funding-2016-12

[jpinx]

30 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Are you suggesting that the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, etc are in as week a position as the Greeks? Is anybody in Europe in as weak a position? Portugal comes close? 2 tiny and economically insignificant nations. 

You listed them by nations.,.....   I merely replied in kind.  :)

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, jpinx said:

You listed them by nations.,.....   I merely replied in kind.  :)

But it's a trivial example. And not representative of the entire situation at all. Quite the contrary.