39 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I was reading a great article (I think it was in The Times) on the plane last night likening the UK's negotiating antics with those of the ex-finance minister of Greece, Varoufakis. Running around accusing Germany of this and that, hoping to split the EU, hoping to play for time, making instead obvious to those he was negotiating with that there was no negotiating position on the Greek side. Sound familiar? We know how that one ended.

UK role model:

 

If it implied that the positions of Greece and the UK are comparable then it must have been a crap article! 

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If it implied that the positions of Greece and the UK are comparable then it must have been a crap article! 

There are a few similarities between the UK and Greece, however. You can rest assured our Brexit masters regularly raise a glass to this fact.

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

I like being European ?

Now if that was someone saying I like being English they would have been shouted down with Little Englander. I like being British by the way. Never will see myself as European. I wonder if the Russians like being European, because they are really?

What would be the correct term for being an EU person if there is one?

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

Exploring Cathar castles tomorrow (in between liquid refreshments). Oh, I rented an Alfa Giulietta just to keep up the euro theme. Such brio! 

The castles there are nice. You enjoy Germany. I always did.

I am sure those hard core remainers will try their best to denounce anything Nigel Farage says but what he says here is actually spot on, especially from a bankers point of view. Makes perfect sense.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/848885/Brexit-news-Nigel-Farag-rips-into-Lib-Dem-Brexit-bill-BBC

 

Let’s be absolutely clear Sarah, Article 50 makes it clear that the withdrawing member state, once Article 50 has been concluded, has no further obligations – that’s what the treaty says

 

“I accept that we have obligations till the middle of 2020, I accept that there’s an on-going pension commitment of about 20,000 people that work for the European Commission… That is the full extent of our obligations and there is nothing more than that. 

“Against that we are a shareholder in the club, including a £9billion investment in the European Investment Bank. I think if we are reasonable about our future obligation and they are reasonable about our stake of assets have – why not just call it quits?”

 

Ukip’s Brexit spokesman Gerard Batten said: “We won’t be paying twice over the odds when we shouldn’t be paying them anything.

“If they keep up this silly game,we will have every right to demand back our net contribution of £185billion which we paid to the EU since we joined.”

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

There are a few similarities between the UK and Greece, however. You can rest assured our Brexit masters regularly raise a glass to this fact.

Not what I was referring to but these stats do not match other, less warped sources.

 

Poland getting all our cash plus helping to keep wages down in the UK as well, I see!

 

Ain't the EU great?

27 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I am sure those hard core remainers will try their best to denounce anything Nigel Farage says but what he says here is actually spot on, especially from a bankers point of view. Makes perfect sense.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/848885/Brexit-news-Nigel-Farag-rips-into-Lib-Dem-Brexit-bill-BBC

 

Let’s be absolutely clear Sarah, Article 50 makes it clear that the withdrawing member state, once Article 50 has been concluded, has no further obligations – that’s what the treaty says

 

“I accept that we have obligations till the middle of 2020, I accept that there’s an on-going pension commitment of about 20,000 people that work for the European Commission… That is the full extent of our obligations and there is nothing more than that. 

“Against that we are a shareholder in the club, including a £9billion investment in the European Investment Bank. I think if we are reasonable about our future obligation and they are reasonable about our stake of assets have – why not just call it quits?”

 

Ukip’s Brexit spokesman Gerard Batten said: “We won’t be paying twice over the odds when we shouldn’t be paying them anything.

“If they keep up this silly game,we will have every right to demand back our net contribution of £185billion which we paid to the EU since we joined.”

I dont see in Art 50 where it mentions further obligations, or obligations at all.

It does state that the treaties will cease

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not what I was referring to but these stats do not match other, less warped sources.

 

Poland getting all our cash plus helping to keep wages down in the UK as well, I see!

 

Ain't the EU great?

 

Is the FT also warped?

 

With regards your second point, the FT article makes the following observation:

 

"Between 2007 and 2015, the UK was the only big advanced economy in which wages contracted while the economy expanded. In most other countries, including France and Germany, both the economy and wages have grown."

 

I think it is fair to say that blaming the Poles for the current dire conditions that the working person in the UK endures is as weak an argument as it is a misnomer. The money Aaron Banks spent bolstering the Leave campaign was clearly well spent - he and his offspring will be coining it in for decades to come as they continue to exploit generations of Brits who are doomed to suffer the consequences of our generation's short sighted folly.

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

If it implied that the positions of Greece and the UK are comparable then it must have been a crap article! 

No. The article was about comparing the political behaviour of Varoufakis and the UK in negotiating with the EU.

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Is the FT also warped?

 

With regards your second point, the FT article makes the following observation:

 

"Between 2007 and 2015, the UK was the only big advanced economy in which wages contracted while the economy expanded. In most other countries, including France and Germany, both the economy and wages have grown."

 

I think it is fair to say that blaming the Poles for the current dire conditions that the working person in the UK endures is as weak an argument as it is a misnomer. The money Aaron Banks spent bolstering the Leave campaign was clearly well spent - he and his offspring will be coining it in for decades to come as they continue to exploit generations of Brits who are doomed to suffer the consequences of our generation's short sighted folly.

You mentioned the Times and the graph was from the Independent! An you might remember that the UK was one of the few countries that bothered to reduce spending to cut own debt after 2010! The influx of EU workers has kept average wages down in the UK.

 

Don't put words into my mouth - I'm not blaming the Poles, who wouldn't take advantage given the chance - I blame EU mismanagement and policy. Blaming Aaron Banks for the leave vote just shows up your myopia! 

 

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

No. The article was about comparing the political behaviour of Varoufakis and the UK in negotiating with the EU.

The press are split on who is behaving badly (or the worst). Without any published meeting minutes or detailed statements post meetings, how can any of us know, including the Times (or FT) or whatever it was? 

 

From what Barmier said, it sounds like his hands have been tied by Juncker and until someone cuts them free there will be no meaningful progress with these so-called negotiations. Davis might behave badly next after he looses patience with all this BS! 

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Not what I was referring to but these stats do not match other, less warped sources.

 

Poland getting all our cash plus helping to keep wages down in the UK as well, I see!

 

Ain't the EU great?

What will change when we leave?

 

Our economy is poorly balanced, and we don't produce much.

 

There is low unemployment in UK, and low wages are the price.

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You mentioned the Times and the graph was from the Independent! An you might remember that the UK was one of the few countries that bothered to reduce spending to cut own debt after 2010! The influx of EU workers has kept average wages down in the UK.! 

 

 

Where did I mention the Times? I mentioned the FT because you disputed the validity of the Independent's article. In fact, I more than mentioned the FT, I linked to the article that confirms what the Independent presented - the UK is the only major western nation that has seen wages decline while productivity has increased.

 

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Don't put words into my mouth - I'm not blaming the Poles, who wouldn't take advantage given the chance - I blame EU mismanagement and policy.

You originally wrote:

 

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Poland getting all our cash plus helping to keep wages down in the UK as well, I see!

What can one infer from this statement other than you believe that the Poles contributed to the dire economic state of the UK?

 

But that aside, I am intrigued to know why you believe that the UK has fared so badly compared to just about every other EU country. If the EU is as badly managed as you suggest, why have British wages fallen by 10.4% while just about every other EU country has seen growth? Surely EU mismanagement would have affected all member countries negatively?

 

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Blaming Aaron Banks for the leave vote just shows up your myopia! 

That statement makes zero sense. Please elaborate why my highlighting that someone who bankrolled the Brexit campaign and stands to gain massively from it makes me myopic?

44 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Where did I mention the Times? I mentioned the FT because you disputed the validity of the Independent's article. In fact, I more than mentioned the FT, I linked to the article that confirms what the Independent presented - the UK is the only major western nation that has seen wages decline while productivity has increased.

 

You originally wrote:

 

What can one infer from this statement other than you believe that the Poles contributed to the dire economic state of the UK?

 

But that aside, I am intrigued to know why you believe that the UK has fared so badly compared to just about every other EU country. If the EU is as badly managed as you suggest, why have British wages fallen by 10.4% while just about every other EU country has seen growth? Surely EU mismanagement would have affected all member countries negatively?

 

That statement makes zero sense. Please elaborate why my highlighting that someone who bankrolled the Brexit campaign and stands to gain massively from it makes me myopic?

My error, Strawman mentioned the Times. I cant see any FT link from you though. 

 

Polish workers and others have migrated to the UK and the pay that they accept for work has helped keep average wages down and keep British people out of work. I am not blaming the Poles. 

 

Some EU countries presently have an economic advantage over others due to EU policy, via freedom of movement and budget allocations especially. These were prime factors for leave voters.  

 

You were the one on about shortsightedness. I just happen to disagree with your position on Aaron Banks. There was a lout more clout and cash available on the remain side anyway!

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I cant see any FT link from you though. 

The FT is paywalled so I linked to the Google cached article - admittedly, I only made the link using the two letters, FT, so I apologise if it was easy to miss. This should work:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xoIYbZPOum4J:https://www.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

What will change when we leave?

 

Our economy is poorly balanced, and we don't produce much.

 

There is low unemployment in UK, and low wages are the price.

The main change will be a new freedom, away from endless EU regulation. That freedom will hopefully be used to produce more of what we used to make but with much better efficiency and quality control.

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The FT is paywalled so I linked to the Google cached article - admittedly, I only made the link using the two letters, FT, so I apologise if it was easy to miss. This should work:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xoIYbZPOum4J:https://www.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk

OK got it. Yes a good piece, the plotted percentages look a lot more believable - you can see here that the UK is nowhere near the same (or as bad) as poor old Greece. The main reasons for this effect are well explained but the influx of cheaper labour from the EU is not mentioned!

 

I'm still glad that we have our own currency and I bet everyone else will be too, one day!

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Where did I mention the Times? I mentioned the FT because you disputed the validity of the Independent's article. In fact, I more than mentioned the FT, I linked to the article that confirms what the Independent presented - the UK is the only major western nation that has seen wages decline while productivity has increased.

 

You originally wrote:

 

What can one infer from this statement other than you believe that the Poles contributed to the dire economic state of the UK?

 

But that aside, I am intrigued to know why you believe that the UK has fared so badly compared to just about every other EU country. If the EU is as badly managed as you suggest, why have British wages fallen by 10.4% while just about every other EU country has seen growth? Surely EU mismanagement would have affected all member countries negatively?

 

That statement makes zero sense. Please elaborate why my highlighting that someone who bankrolled the Brexit campaign and stands to gain massively from it makes me myopic?

 

Apart from Germany, which has a different type of economy to the UK (which enables it to gain hugely from being in the Euro), which other countries have had a mass influx of cheap labour from the EU?

33 minutes ago, nauseus said:

My error, Strawman mentioned the Times. I cant see any FT link from you though. 

 

Polish workers and others have migrated to the UK and the pay that they accept for work has helped keep average wages down and keep British people out of work. I am not blaming the Poles. 

 

Some EU countries presently have an economic advantage over others due to EU policy, via freedom of movement and budget allocations especially. These were prime factors for leave voters.  

 

You were the one on about shortsightedness. I just happen to disagree with your position on Aaron Banks. There was a lout more clout and cash available on the remain side anyway!

 

A few years ago, my company did some work for a chain of chemists. In chat with one of the bosses, he told me that they employed all their pharmacists from Portugal because they are happy to work for half the wage of British pharmacists.

19 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would like to thank the EU negotiating team and Barnier. I bet he had a few great nick names at school.

The EU are showing exactly why people voted to leave. With their aggressive, bullish and arrogance tactics they are really making some people who voted remain, seeing for what they are. Besides those who believe the Biased BBC reporting, people who voted remain are getting angry at the way they are demanding, and trying to punish the UK,  for daring to say, well we want to leave. We tried it, it didn't work and you weren't flexible enough when we asked.

 

Thank you to the EU you for making even those who voted leave, hate you. Never under estimate pride, patriotism and the family. You can ridicule and criticize others but say it about a family member or your countrymen and you could see a backlash. The foolish behavior, is to the leave campaigns benefit. Like the bully in the school playground, they always end up with a bloody nose, eventually.

 

Keep it up Barnier (Barnpot) you are doing a great job at angering the people of the UK.

"The EU are showing exactly why people voted to leave. With their aggressive, bullish and arrogance tactics they are really making some people who voted remain, seeing for what they are."

 

"people who voted remain are getting angry at the way they are demanding, and trying to punish the UK,  for daring to say, well we want to leave"

 

"Keep it up Barnier (Barnpot) you are doing a great job at angering the people of the UK."

 

I agree with all of these points.

 

The EU should have addressed the grievances that cause concern to the electorate in a few EU countries (not just the UK) - but instead they preferred to rely on bullying tactics to frighten the electorate to 'stay in line' .

 

 

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Is the FT also warped?

 

With regards your second point, the FT article makes the following observation:

 

"Between 2007 and 2015, the UK was the only big advanced economy in which wages contracted while the economy expanded. In most other countries, including France and Germany, both the economy and wages have grown."

 

I think it is fair to say that blaming the Poles for the current dire conditions that the working person in the UK endures is as weak an argument as it is a misnomer. The money Aaron Banks spent bolstering the Leave campaign was clearly well spent - he and his offspring will be coining it in for decades to come as they continue to exploit generations of Brits who are doomed to suffer the consequences of our generation's short sighted folly.

"Between 2007 and 2015, the UK was the only big advanced economy in which wages contracted while the economy expanded. In most other countries, including France and Germany, both the economy and wages have grown."

 

I think it is fair to say that blaming the Poles for the current dire conditions that the working person in the UK endures is as weak an argument as it is a misnomer."

 

Quite.  UK companies have made the most of poor, EU immigrant labour to keep wages low for everyone - other than for themselves of course.

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

The press are split on who is behaving badly (or the worst). Without any published meeting minutes or detailed statements post meetings, how can any of us know, including the Times (or FT) or whatever it was? 

 

From what Barmier said, it sounds like his hands have been tied by Juncker and until someone cuts them free there will be no meaningful progress with these so-called negotiations. Davis might behave badly next after he looses patience with all this BS! 

I managed to track down the source of the original article I referred to having just emerged from my jet-lag haze. It is an article in The Times from Simon Nixon, who is the Chief European Commentator at the Wall Street Journal. http://tinyurl.com/y89wawso

 

26 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

I managed to track down the source of the original article I referred to having just emerged from my jet-lag haze. It is an article in The Times from Simon Nixon, who is the Chief European Commentator at the Wall Street Journal. http://tinyurl.com/y89wawso

 

This Nixon chap shows no evidence that the Tory government refers to Varoufakis' book with biblical reverence. In fact he seems both confused and ill-informed on a number of points:

 

 There is no comparison between Brexit and the Greek problem. 

 Eurosceptics are not just on the right of politics but from the left too. And the centre!

 Eurosceptics do not all dream of the destruction of the Euro project. Believe it or not!

 

I must assume, from reading his article, that Nixon is pro EU and that Varoufakis' book is a damn good yarn!

 

Flag

  

Seems the Brexits who confidently predicted , well  over a year ago now , that the sterling drop was just a  short term thing  ( blame the currency  speculators  etc )  might have been a tad optimistic .............

1 minute ago, Jack100 said:

Seems the Brexits who confidently predicted , well  over a year ago now , that the sterling drop was just a  short term thing  ( blame the currency  speculators  etc )  might have been a tad optimistic .............

Show us some examples?

23 minutes ago, Jack100 said:

Seems the Brexits who confidently predicted , well  over a year ago now , that the sterling drop was just a  short term thing  ( blame the currency  speculators  etc )  might have been a tad optimistic .............

 

Sterling had been overvalued for a few years prior to the brexit vote. It's around It's true value now.

9 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Now if that was someone saying I like being English they would have been shouted down with Little Englander. I like being British by the way. Never will see myself as European. I wonder if the Russians like being European, because they are really?

What would be the correct term for being an EU person if there is one?

The castles there are nice. You enjoy Germany. I always did.

The Cathar Heretics' castles are in SE France. I plan to drive through the Cote d'Azure before catching the Eurostar direct to London.

 

An EU person is a European by definition ?

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

The main change will be a new freedom, away from endless EU regulation. That freedom will hopefully be used to produce more of what we used to make but with much better efficiency and quality control.

Hopefully this, hopefully that.

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sterling had been overvalued for a few years prior to the brexit vote. It's around It's true value now.

Rear-view assessment is so wonderful.

15 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sterling had been overvalued for a few years prior to the brexit vote. It's around It's true value now.

Rear-view assessment is so wonderful.

 

Nothing rear-view about it. You, of all people on here, will have long been aware of the fact and the reasons why.

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Hopefully this, hopefully that.

Well, it beats hopeless.