May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[pitrevie]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Mr Blair is not available he is too busy ingratiating himself with Jean-Claude Juncker. Apparently they kissed recently when they greeted each other in Brussels. This meeting was described as emblematic of the elitist politics British voters rejected in 2016.

Didn't May greet Juncker with a kiss outside 10 Downing Street when they met in April of this year.

What would that be emblematic of would you say?

 

 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

no, not so far

 

The question was rhetorical.

[AlexRich]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/09/eu-immigration-offer-brexit-reversal-adonis

 

Yes ... say the brexiteer Thai visa crowd ... "it will never happen" ... lol

 

"The decision of the British people to leave the European Union could be reversed next year if France and Germany agree that the UK can take control over immigration while staying in the EU single market, the former Labour cabinet minister Lord Adonis said on Sunday".

[aright]

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Didn't May greet Juncker with a kiss outside 10 Downing Street when they met in April of this year.

What would that be emblematic of would you say?

 

 

Yes 

[Grouse]

It worries me that Brexiteers will overlook anything in their blinkered pursuit of Brexit in vain attempt to improve their lot. It won't ?

 

However the evil bastard branch of Brexiteers see opportunities to make a fast buck at everyone's expense.

 

I'm sure many fat cat CEOs are looking forward to Henry VIII bills to sneak in changes to environmental and employment legislation. 

 

?

[aright]

38 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It worries me that Brexiteers will overlook anything in their blinkered pursuit of Brexit in vain attempt to improve their lot. It won't ?

 

 

 

?

It worries me that Remainers will overlook democracy to worship at the "Altar of my opinion"

[aright]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

I'm sure many fat cat CEOs are looking forward to Henry VIII bills to sneak in changes to environmental and employment legislation. 

 

?

They are not Henry VIII bills they are powers which allow the Government to make technical amendments to legislation.

It beggars belief that many leavers (insults aren't necessary) and many MP's especially in the Labour Party allowed the EU to make and give us 12500 regulations without Parliamentary scrutiny. and without a descenting  murmur. For the last 40 years the executive have been using the same powers to process EU directives into UK law.

Sauce, goose, gander; pot, kettle, black; utter hypocrisy......all come to mind   

[mommysboy]

8 hours ago, AlexRich said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/09/eu-immigration-offer-brexit-reversal-adonis

 

Yes ... say the brexiteer Thai visa crowd ... "it will never happen" ... lol

 

"The decision of the British people to leave the European Union could be reversed next year if France and Germany agree that the UK can take control over immigration while staying in the EU single market, the former Labour cabinet minister Lord Adonis said on Sunday".

This is a very weak government and there are powerful forces gathering within and without Parliament.  The Government has a mandate- a weak one but a mandate nevertheless- but it will not get its plans through unless it basic steamrollers them through the House of Commons, and it just does not have the heft to do that.

 

I would guess this is the last few weeks of a crippled administration.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, aright said:

It worries me that Remainers will overlook democracy to worship at the "Altar of my opinion"

I guess 2 wrongs do will not make a right.  I dont think a second referendum is at all respectful of a mandate that was fairly won, however, yet if something can not be done as promised then it is fair to call it frustrated.  And it is not right that the power of Parliament, the lawmakers, should be usurped.

[aright]

It is my feeling that given the result of the referendum and the major party manifestos voted for, at the last election, if the rebel Tory MP's and the Labour Party derail the Withdrawal Bill their party will not forgive them and their constituents and the country will never forgive them. If the MP's can't support their own manifestos then they should resign and give their constituents someone else to vote for. If they can't do that because "their opinion" is king, politics in the UK has taken a nasty turn.

It is time for recalcitrant  MP's to put the country (the will of the people) before conceit for their own opinions. MP's are there to serve.

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, aright said:

It worries me that Remainers will overlook democracy to worship at the "Altar of my opinion"

That's a laugh coming from the Royal Prerogative team.

[aright]

40 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

That's a laugh coming from the Royal Prerogative team.

Perhaps you are unaware the Royal Prerogative only serves as a ceremonial; function. We have a constitutional monarchy which when combined with representative democracy ( you have most probably ignored that if a remainer), is a compromise between total trust in the political class and in well bred well trained monarchs raised for the role since birth .Constitutonal Monarchy imo complements democracy.

Your slip is showing slightly. Would I be fair to assume you are a Republican?

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, aright said:

It is my feeling that given the result of the referendum and the major party manifestos voted for, at the last election, if the rebel Tory MP's and the Labour Party derail the Withdrawal Bill their party will not forgive them and their constituents and the country will never forgive them. If the MP's can't support their own manifestos then they should resign and give their constituents someone else to vote for. If they can't do that because "their opinion" is king, politics in the UK has taken a nasty turn.

It is time for recalcitrant  MP's to put the country (the will of the people) before conceit for their own opinions. MP's are there to serve.

Perhaps MPs will endorse the will of the people, once the options are on the table and the people endorse one of those options through a vote ... an election or a referendum ... based on facts on the table rather than lies ... £350m per week and having our cake and eating it, for example.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

That's a laugh coming from the Royal Prerogative team.

... they are all absolutely terrified about another referendum, because they know they would lose.

[aright]

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Perhaps MPs will endorse the will of the people, 

I think that perfectly defines your view of democracy.

[aright]

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

... they are all absolutely terrified about another referendum, because they know they would lose.

At the last general election, not so long ago, 87% of the people who voted, voted for political parties whose manifesto endorsed leaving the EU. Only 7% voted for the one party (Liberal Democrats ) who promised another referendum if they got into power. You are living in La La land.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

At the last general election, not so long ago, 87% of the people who voted, voted for political parties whose manifesto endorsed leaving the EU. Only 7% voted for the one party (Liberal Democrats ) who promised another referendum if they got into power. You are living in La La land.

 

Pro-EU Conservative Ken Clarke told Sky News it was "hopeless" to think the UK could stay in the EU, given the "mood of the country".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41216679

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, aright said:

It worries me that Remainers will overlook democracy to worship at the "Altar of my opinion"

That's unfair.

 

I want parliament to have full sovereignty without the executive riding roughshod over it

 

As a remainer, I will go along with whatever parliament decides. Is that undemocratic?

 

 

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, aright said:

They are not Henry VIII bills they are powers which allow the Government to make technical amendments to legislation.

It beggars belief that many leavers (insults aren't necessary) and many MP's especially in the Labour Party allowed the EU to make and give us 12500 regulations without Parliamentary scrutiny. and without a descenting  murmur. For the last 40 years the executive have been using the same powers to process EU directives into UK law.

Sauce, goose, gander; pot, kettle, black; utter hypocrisy......all come to mind   

It's a matter of trust. I don't trust this current crop of Cons. An inch.

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, aright said:

It is my feeling that given the result of the referendum and the major party manifestos voted for, at the last election, if the rebel Tory MP's and the Labour Party derail the Withdrawal Bill their party will not forgive them and their constituents and the country will never forgive them. If the MP's can't support their own manifestos then they should resign and give their constituents someone else to vote for. If they can't do that because "their opinion" is king, politics in the UK has taken a nasty turn.

It is time for recalcitrant  MP's to put the country (the will of the people) before conceit for their own opinions. MP's are there to serve.

Sadly, you appear not to understand how our representative democracy works. 

 

Why not ask the people if they want hanging? Abolish VAT? Free beer?

 

The view of the members of parliament is indeed "king"

 

Otherwise, I suggest we have a civil war and decide a new constitution 

[Grouse]

26 minutes ago, aright said:

I think that perfectly defines your view of democracy.

True democracy only works if the electorate are equally well informed and educated. They're not.

 

We elect individuals who we believe will use their judgement to act in the general good.

 

The monarchy have little involvement except advisory ( I am a monarchist)

[aright]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

As a remainer, I will go along with whatever parliament decides. Is that undemocratic?

 

 

" Whatever Parliament decides" is the issue A referendum takes Parliament out of the equation and gives the people (not MP's) the right through the ballot box to determine the outcome of an issue. They voted to leave and MP's are there to serve the will of the people. What is the point of a referendum if MP's can overturn it. They dishonour themselves if they ignore this. So yes if MP's block obstruct or hinder our leaving it is undemocratic.   

[aright]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's a matter of trust. I don't trust this current crop of Cons. An inch.

And you do trust the Labour MP's who are going to ignore their out manifesto to their constituents.

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Pro-EU Conservative Ken Clarke told Sky News it was "hopeless" to think the UK could stay in the EU, given the "mood of the country".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41216679

Obviously the *******s are more numerous than the rest of us. For now...

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

" Whatever Parliament decides" is the issue A referendum takes Parliament out of the equation and gives the people (not MP's) the right through the ballot box to determine the outcome of an issue. They voted to leave and MP's are there to serve the will of the people. What is the point of a referendum if MP's can overturn it. They dishonour themselves if they ignore this. So yes if MP's block obstruct or hinder our leaving it is undemocratic.   

Sorry to say parliament is sovereign. They are not bound by a referendum no matter you think that is unfair.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

And you do trust the Labour MP's who are going to ignore their out manifesto to their constituents.

Actually, I am a democrat. I do not like the party whip system. MPs are actually obliged to act as they think fit. That may not be inline with lumpen masses.

[aright]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sadly, you appear not to understand how our representative democracy works. 

 

Why not ask the people if they want hanging? Abolish VAT? Free beer?

 

The view of the members of parliament is indeed "king"

 

Otherwise, I suggest we have a civil war and decide a new constitution 

Sadly you don't understand that referendums by pass representative parliamentary democracy. If they didn't there would be no point in them or the will of the people.

I agree it would be stupid to have a referendum on everything but the rules of the game change when a referendum is called for. If I was you I would blame Cameron not the people who gave you the decision you didn't want to hear.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Sadly you don't understand that referendums by pass representative parliamentary democracy. If they didn't there would be no point in them or the will of the people.

I agree it would be stupid to have a referendum on everything but the rules of the game change when a referendum is called for. If I was you I would blame Cameron not the people who gave you the decision you didn't want to hear.

I do blame Cameron for several related issues.

 

I do not blame the electorate.

 

The point of the referendum was to measure public opinion. Only.

[aright]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

True democracy only works if the electorate are equally well informed and educated. They're not.

 

 

Is this code for " I like an electorate who read the broad sheets and have got up to or beyond 3 A levels and don't eat tripe or have a full English for breakfast lunch and dinner or watch Corrie and EastEnders"

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

Sadly you don't understand that referendums by pass representative parliamentary democracy. If they didn't there would be no point in them or the will of the people.

I agree it would be stupid to have a referendum on everything but the rules of the game change when a referendum is called for. If I was you I would blame Cameron not the people who gave you the decision you didn't want to hear.

 

Exactly. The 2015 referendum was about "the rules of the game change" , as you called it. Remainers harp on about the electorate being misinformed. The electorate was kept hopelessly misinformed in 1975. By 2016, enough of the electorate had wised up.