May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[anon7867763]

Devalue your country by 30% and more to come. The Brits have got it really sorted NOT. Even more stupid than electing Trump !

[Steve Mepham]

Anybody who claims that mass immigration has no effect on Wages or Rent/House prices simply does not understand the simple laws of supply and demand. 

 

The perks, benefits of the working man have gone back 50 years in just 10 years. where will it all stop.

 

Remember seeing Share a House dot com, good idea 3 like minded people sharing a 3 bedroomed House, now we have Share a Room dot com. will they use a roster to decide who gets the bed. 

[Steve Mepham]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Just a quick reminder.

 

The referendum's outcome was:

48% remain

30% soft brexit (my guess)

22% hard brexit (my guess)

 

Yes, the 30% and 22% are only my guesses, but the 48% majority was clear.

Even if there was only a 5% pro soft vote, there was no more than a 47% pro hard vote.

 

Referenda are an undemocratic technique used by those in power - that goes for all countries.

The results always depend on the question asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But as the guy said on Question Time I don't remember do you want to leave the EU yes or no, now go to section 2 do you want a grey hard or soft brexit now go to section 3 if you don't like the result of this ballot do you want to keep balloting until you get the result you want or do you want to do the best of 3 

[baansgr]

5 minutes ago, johnsnapo said:

Devalue your country by 30% and more to come. The Brits have got it really sorted NOT. Even more stupid than electing Trump !

Mark Carney is much to blame on that front. Shrowded statements of negativity. Sterling started a recovery till August 2016 until he needed to save face

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

It wasn't a sales show. It was a referendum.

A fancy word for a government sponsored opinion poll, one of the the 3 such national opinion polls ever held.

 

I hate to say this but my son and his wife had no idea and voted to leave because her mother said so, I live 6 thousand miles away but his mother in law is just round the corner.

Of course I realise that you would say that is only 2 out of the 17 million, there couldn't possibly be any more that had no idea what they were voting for.

 

 

[Steve Mepham]

Just now, baansgr said:

Mark Carney is much to blame on that front. Shrowded statements of negativity. Sterling started a recovery till August 2016 until he needed to save face

it would seem to me that each time Sterling starts to recover somebody makes a very negative statement and down it goes again. It is not in the interest of the remoaners to see something going up when we were told the end of the world is nigh. 

[Steve Mepham]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

A fancy word for a government sponsored opinion poll, one of the the 3 such national opinion polls ever held.

 

I hate to say this but my son and his wife had no idea and voted to leave because her mother said so, I live 6 thousand miles away but his mother in law is just round the corner.

Of course I realise that you would say that is only 2 out of the 17 million, there couldn't possibly be any more that had no idea what they were voting for.

 

 

surely that logic must work both ways, or are all remoaners so clever ??

[sandyf]

3 minutes ago, Steve Mepham said:

surely that logic must work both ways, or are all remoaners so clever ??

How do you work that one out? Are you saying that people had no idea of what it was like to be a member of the EU?

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Just a quick reminder.

 

The referendum's outcome was:

48% remain

30% soft brexit (my guess)

22% hard brexit (my guess)

 

Yes, the 30% and 22% are only my guesses, but the 48% majority was clear.

Even if there was only a 5% pro soft vote, there was no more than a 47% pro hard vote.

 

Referenda are an undemocratic technique used by those in power - that goes for all countries.

The results always depend on the question asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Much as we appreciate your "guesses" - the referendum question was pretty much leave or stay.

 

At the time, there was much discussion as to whether article 50 should be enacted immediately or to wait a while.  Hard/soft brexit only became a question after the event as everyone erroneously assumed that UK and EU politicians would negotiate sensibly on both sides and come up with a trade agreement that would suit both sides.

 

Mostly (*) only hindsight tells us that it would turn into a farce - with Brit. politicians desperately looking for a way to pretend that paying more whilst retaining the most disliked aspects is actually respecting the leave vote....

 

* I say 'mostly' as I posted this would likely be the case a LONG time ago.  I take no joy in this (other than a slight 'smug' feeling), but it doesn't take a genius to work out that politicians are only interested in increasing their own wealth and/or power.

Edited December 17, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Steve Mepham]

15 minutes ago, sandyf said:

How do you work that one out? Are you saying that people had no idea of what it was like to be a member of the EU?

I would have thought a few were undecided, then being told an emergency budget would be held the day after the vote must have made a few minds up, also being told half a million people would lose their jobs etc. 

 

 

[oldhippy]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Much as we appreciate your "guesses" - the referendum question was pretty much leave or stay.

 

At the time, there was much discussion as to whether article 50 should be enacted immediately or to wait a while.  Hard/soft brexit only became a question after the event as everyone erroneously assumed that UK and EU politicians would negotiate sensibly on both sides and come up with a trade agreement that would suit both sides.

 

Mostly (*) only hindsight tells us that it would turn into a farce - with Brit. politicians desperately looking for a way to pretend that paying more whilst retaining the most disliked aspects is actually respecting the leave vote....

 

* I say 'mostly' as I posted this would likely be the case a LONG time ago.

QUOTE: Much as we appreciate your "guesses" - the referendum question was pretty much leave or stay.

 

Exactly.

The referendum question was meaningless.

 

China and Norway are both non members. Does that mean the EU has the same relationship with China and Norway?

Only simple minded people think that complex issues can be reduced to yes or no, agree or disagree.

 

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

There is no longer a majority in favour of Brexit. Time to face reality 

Polls are funny things aren't they. A recent poll showing the majority want to stay in the EU is met with calls for another referendum, the less publicised poll that Jeremy Corbyn is now ahead of Therese May in electoral terms is not met by the same people with calls for an election. The Security of Silence. 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, taipeir said:

You are bored is an argument? Joke 

Answer the question, why not have a second referendum?

 

The voters are certainly more educated at this stage to make an informed choice.

 

The Lies about the NHS and having your cake and eating it have been exposed

 

 

Where's 'the will of the people ' argument gone ?

 

The people should vote on the actual way forward...Customs union, single market or hard Brexit .

Yes, let’s have another referendum, tens years after we finally escape this shambles of a E.U. Then we will know if all the scare stories had substance or not.

 

I believe by that time,if there is still an E.U. They will have a E.U. Army, in spite of the fact, that during the referendum,we were repeatedly told that no such thing had been contemplated. One of many lies told by the political establishment.

Edited December 17, 2017 by nontabury

[adammike]

58 minutes ago, Steve Mepham said:

But as the guy said on Question Time I don't remember do you want to leave the EU yes or no, now go to section 2 do you want a grey hard or soft brexit now go to section 3 if you don't like the result of this ballot do you want to keep balloting until you get the result you want or do you want to do the best of 3 

Or make voting compulsorily,that 52% who voted to leave was 38% of the electorate,it makes all that "will of the people" rubbish look lame.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, taipeir said:

'Some British media can be biased...' 

Understatement of the year.

The media in the UK, especially tabloids, are horrifically biased (almost all owned by billionaires with their assets held off shore ) and have generated a stream of xenophobic invective for decades (and some news papers like the Times going back hundreds of years).

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-front-page-democracy-parliament-a8110616.html

 

Comment from the article

 

#The issue isn't Brexit. The issue is is Britain a Parliamentary Democracy? Or are we Germany 1933 or a similar dictatorship where any sort of questioning is considered treason, with threats of violence or death? From their intimidating, shrieking front pages, certain tabloids would definitely consider us to be the latter. Bravo to those brave Parliamentarians who are fighting to take back control.#

 

You mean take back control of ceding control I suppose. These brave parliamentarians are dyed from the same cast as their predecessors, who have been surreptitiously allowing the erosion of national sovereignty through successive EEC/EC/EU treaties for the last 45 years.  

[Jack100]

Jesus ( save us )  797 pages and counting - when will this ever end ? Parity for the pound?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

And one of the best things about the British version of democracy is voters never get a chance to change their mind. Once they elect someone to be their MP, he or she is their MP for life or until resignation. That way events subsequent to the election become completely irrelevant. No need to take account of new facts and situations.

We just had the chance - it just took 41 years to get and take it - so 2057 here we come!

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

There is no longer a majority in favour of Brexit. Time to face reality 

The inner reality of your own bottle of Grouse. Grouse?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Just a quick reminder.

 

The referendum's outcome was:

48% remain

30% soft brexit (my guess)

22% hard brexit (my guess)

 

Yes, the 30% and 22% are only my guesses, but the 48% majority was clear.

Even if there was only a 5% pro soft vote, there was no more than a 47% pro hard vote.

 

Referenda are an undemocratic technique used by those in power - that goes for all countries.

The results always depend on the question asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Referenda are an undemocratic technique?  Only when you lose? I'm only guessing, of course! 

Edited December 17, 2017 by nauseus

[tomacht8]

26 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Yes, let’s have another referendum, tens years after we finally escape this shambles of a E.U. Then we will know if all the scare stories had substance or not.

 

I believe by that time,if there is still an E.U. They will have a E.U. Army, in spite of the fact, that during the referendum,we were repeatedly told that no such thing had been contemplated. One of many lies told by the political establishment.

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

A fancy word for a government sponsored opinion poll, one of the the 3 such national opinion polls ever held.

 

I hate to say this but my son and his wife had no idea and voted to leave because her mother said so, I live 6 thousand miles away but his mother in law is just round the corner.

Of course I realise that you would say that is only 2 out of the 17 million, there couldn't possibly be any more that had no idea what they were voting for.

 

 

Rerun so many times.

[aright]

21 minutes ago, adammike said:

Or make voting compulsorily,that 52% who voted to leave was 38% of the electorate,it makes all that "will of the people" rubbish look lame.

Why lame? It's reasonable to assume that the people who didn't vote didn't care if we were in or out of the EU. Either side can claim that vote but the result would still be the same.

[oldhippy]

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Referenda are an undemocratic technique?  Only when you lose? I'm only guessing, of course! 

As usual, you are guessing wrong.

So do you have a counter argument, apart from a wrong guess?

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

How do you work that one out? Are you saying that people had no idea of what it was like to be a member of the EU?

Most of them had no idea who actually runs it, how the holders of the most powerful jobs are selected (and how they cannot be voted out), how it is structured, how it is influenced by brigades of corporate lobbyists, the EU's intent to form a future total superstate and even who their MEPs were. Many were interviewed and polled and they couldn't come up with any real advantages of EU membership, except for cheap flights, continental phone calls (introduced just before the vote how about that ?) and easy travel and work opportunities on the continent. They showed the ignorance that the leave voters are accused of by the all knowing remainers.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

As usual, you are guessing wrong.

So do you have a counter argument, apart from a wrong guess?

No argument against self-admitted guesswork. Just my sarcasm. You should try it sometime. 

[aright]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Be assured that real mathematics underlies sampling.

That maybe so but stop making it sound like an exact science. Full marks however for leading people to believe in the bottom line validity of opinion polls.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jun/11/inaccurate-opinion-polls-got-us-into-this-mess-general-election-2017

[Chomper Higgot]

Many here are discussing income inequality, some blaming it on government policy, others blaming it on the UK's membership of the EU and mass immigration.

 

The following plot of UK inequality comes from The Equality Trust (https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/how-has-inequality-changed)

 

Very clearly, income inequality rose at its most rapid between 1979 and 1990 and has been near flat since. 

 

 

[oldhippy]

24 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No argument against self-admitted guesswork. Just my sarcasm. You should try it sometime. 

Perhaps an argument against: "The result of a referendum is determined by the referendum question" ?

Or am I overestimating your willingness to debate?

 

"Do you want a constitution written by the army top or no constitution at all?

May sound familiar.....

 

 

 

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Perhaps an argument against: "The result of a referendum is determined by the referendum question" ?

Or am I overestimating your willingness to debate?

 

"Do you want a constitution written by the army top or no constitution at all?

May sound familiar.....

 

 

 

 

If you want a debate state your topic clearly using the English language, please.

[oldhippy]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

If you want a debate state your topic clearly using the English language, please.

I claim that:

The result of a referendum is determined by what question is asked.

 

If a referendum asks "white or black", the result will never be "grey", even if that is what the majority wants.

 

I believe this is English?